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Help! Experiences with Scheat
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RC



Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Posts: 475

Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 4:16 am    Post subject: Help! Experiences with Scheat Reply with quote

Can anyone relate anything you know and any experiences you've had with the fixed star "Scheat".

If conjunct the directed ASC, it it horrible! This much I know. However I'm not sure about other planets. For example the directed Sun in the 12th house conjunct it.

Someone I know now has their directed Sun at 29 Pisces 27 in their 12th house and it has me very worried because I've seen what it can do on the ASC.


RC
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hiimnotcool



Joined: 02 Sep 2008
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Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

29 pisces signifies the end of all things. I would think the Sun conjunct that point would be bad. Especially in the 12th house. I don't really know what to say except that it doesn't seem good. What are the other aspects within the natal chart?
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Mark
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Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No doubt this star does have a poor reputation in traditional astrology.

Depends what sources you are using. Vivian Robson is one of the most negative writers you can find. However, Diana Rosenberg and Bernadette Brady are much more positive in their conclusions about the possible influence of the star and give various examples.

While I might consider the more downbeat approach for horary, natal is another situation. Also keep in mind Scheat is nowhere near the ecliptic(+31)and not that bright as a 2rd magnitude star. Sources like Cardano indicate a star in a cadent house is much weaker in its influence.

Here are a selection of interpretations from three astrologers: Deborah Houlding, Bernadette Brady and Diana Rosenberg:
Quote:

''Another star widely known for its pronounced malevolence is Scheat. This is also a 2nd magnitude star although its brilliance can vary considerably. It is of a deep yellow colour and situated on the left leg. The derivation of its name is uncertain. The Arabians knew the noticeable square formed by the three prominent stars of Pegasus, along with Alpheratz of Andromeda (which was often included in this constellation), as 'the Water bucket'. Of this Scheat was known as the 'Upper Spout', probably because it was regarded as an extremely dangerous star, from which poured forth with all kinds of disaster and misfortune associated with water. Catastrophies, floods, shipwreck, mining accidents, airplane accidents, and suicide attempts have been recorded as the effects of this star by Ebertin and Hoffman, whilst Robson acknowledges it as a star of extreme misfortune.''
(Deborah Houlding)

Quote:
''Traditionally seen as a very negative star, it seems to be predominant in the charts of famous, free-thinking people. Different ideas, fast thinking, daring to think or to do the impossible. Key Theme: To be a thinker or intellect. ''(Bernadette Brady)

Quote:
''A high level of artistic, musical, dance, poetic, and literary expression and accomplishment. Raconteurs, love to talk. Actors, dancers, composers, authors, poets, humourists. Healers ( doctors, psychiatrists, nurses, psychics, public health officials) and others indirectly involved in health, public health, medical research, healing , such as St Bernadette, Edgar Cayce, Kubler-Ross, Nostradamus, Pasteur, Nightingale, Clara Barton. Mental stability is a challenge; schizophrenia, paranoia, manic-depression, autism, even sadistic pederasty , murder. Medicine, military leadership, military (esp nautical) inventions. Negative: Sorrows, extreme misfortunes, danger of drowning.''
(Diana Rosenberg)


If I was doing natal work I would check out Rosenberg's interpretations as she provides more positive possibilities without denying the negative. Brady is not working with stars projected on to the zodiac but with parans. I find Brady's tries too hard to go against the tradition and nearly always avoids saying anything negative about a star. She is clearly trying to reverse the negativity and fatalism of sources like Vivian Robson who she describes as the 'hell and brimstone' school of fixed stars interpretation.

Note: Diana Rosenberg has produced a Fixed Star Workbook for many years which I have. However, her first book on fixed stars: 'Secrets of the Ancient Skies' is due out anytime from Robert Hand's Arhat publications.
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RC



Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Posts: 475

Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarkC wrote:
I find Brady's tries too hard to go against the tradition and nearly always avoids saying anything negative about a star. She is clearly trying to reverse the negativity and fatalism of sources like Vivian Robson who she describes as the 'hell and brimstone' school of fixed stars interpretation..


Well I for one, can speak from experience that it deserves that reputation when your progressed ASC hits it! It should not be taken lightly.

But perhaps, as you say, it would be weakened in the 12th and may be on a more mental level: Urges of suicide etc..


Thanks

RC
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Mark
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Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello RC,

Seems like we have an interesting role reversal going on here. I am supposed to be the gloomy fatalistic traditionalist and you the up beat modern astrologer. Laughing

I am interested what type of directions you mean here? Secondary progressions, solar arcs or primary directions?

While I do not use Brady's interpretations of stars myself, I do think she has enriched astrological technique with fixed stars tremendously. Here is an article by Brady on the star:

http://www.visualastrology.co.uk/blogg/index.php/2007/10/14/scheat-a-beautiful-mind-or-as-fragile-as-glass/

I personally question the approach to fixed stars seen in Vivian Robson's book applied to all fixed stars. Its ok for stars close to the ecliptic like Regulus, Aldebaran Antares, Spica etc. However, stars like Scheat, Vega or Algol are way outside the ecliptic. We do not have this astronomical issue with planets which all stay within 8 degrees of the ecliptic (excluding Pluto at sometimes 17 degrees outside)

However, when we project stars like Scheat on to the plane of the ecliptic we totally distort where they really are. Try using the planetarium feature on Solar Fire to see what I mean. Because of this these stars are sometimes rising in zodiacal degrees up to a sign away from where we think they are using zodiacal projection.

Using parans and the actual in mundo positions of stars is the only real way of working with the actual positions of stars well outside the ecliptic. This isn't just my idiosyncratic view. Its the view of others that have examined the subject like George Noonan, Robert Hand and Joseph Crane.

However, its clear your experience of a progressed ASC has convinced you of the validity of the zodiacal projection method even if the symbolism is based on questionable astronomy. Fair enough you are entitled to your own opinion on this just as I am.

Because of that I posted up Diana Rosenberg's views because she does use Scheat in the way you propose. However, after studying thousands of charts (not one progressed ASC) she has reached the conclusion is it not always negative.

I accept some stars are more difficult and potentially malefic. Still, I think its important to keep in mind the issue of some freewill in natal astrology. Here is Diana Rosenberg on that subject in relation to fixed stars.
Quote:
There are no wholly benefic or wholly malefic stars. Each one proffers energies that may be used for good or ill. …stars and constellations, rather than being ‘good’ or ‘bad’ , embody a polarity of issues, concerns and struggles that must be addressed in this lifetime, where the free will of the individual is tasked with the responsibility of choosing, manifesting and actively expressing the positive polarity. While a few may fail to even try, others might overcome great difficulties and achieve success, both spiritual and worldly.
Diana Rosenberg


Having said all that I still haven't physically recovered from when my secondary progressed Moon contacted Aldebaran! However, thats a powerful first magnitude star and close to the ecliptic. The star falls in an angular house in my chart too. Plus Aldebaran is of the nature of Mars and therefore inimical to the planet that was contacting it.
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Gunhilde



Joined: 10 Jun 2006
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Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Having said all that I still haven't physically recovered from when my secondary progressed Moon contacted Aldebaran! However, thats a powerful first magnitude star and close to the ecliptic. The star falls in an angular house in my chart too. Plus Aldebaran is of the nature of Mars and therefore inimical to the planet that was contacting it.


Fixed stars are not high on my list of 'things studied' so far, but they are moving higher. I have Pars Fortunae conjunct Aldebaran in the 4th, which, depending on which source you read, fills me with either hope or despair. I know absolutely nothing about secondary progressions, being unable to decipher even my own Solar Returns, but having Aldebaran/POF in the 4th is interesting, because most of the 'fortune' that I [may] someday inherit is in real estate holdings. I say 'may', because one of Aldebaran's more negative implications is 'sudden losses and disasters'. Confused

This has nothing to do with Scheat, mind you, but I do think there is some weight behind the fixed stars, for sure; perhaps symbolically rather than mathematically/astronomically.

GH Smile
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Mark
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Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
This has nothing to do with Scheat, mind you, but I do think there is some weight behind the fixed stars, for sure; perhaps symbolically rather than mathematically/astronomically.


Fixed stars are the lost tool of modern astrology as I call them. Actually, there are lots of lost tools but its a catchy phrase if I give a talk on this. Lots of astrologers are missing out here.

I should emphasize I am no mathematician or astronomer. Far from it.
Confused

However, astrologers working with fixed stars probably need to learn a tad more astronomy to understand latitude, declination etc. For example, which stars rise in your vicinity and which dont? Which stars always stay up in the sky and never set where you are? This is not complicated stuff but requires a bit of knowledge. Its a sad reflection on how alienated modern astrology is from its ancient past and the real sky that many astrologers have no idea about most of the night sky. They focus exclusively on a narrow band we call the ecliptic. Our astrology can be oh so much more than that. Using parans and particularly in mundo conjunctions with planets and angles allows us to really engage with the whole night sky as it really is rather than try to squash it artificially into the zodiac.

I accept my argument for more accuracy in fixed stars work may not appeal to some. Astrology is after all based on symbolism isn't it? The thing is our symbolism regarding planets and houses is fairly accurate astronomically. Yes its symbolic but it doesn't totally depart from what is out there in the sky (except for Pluto). With stars close to ecliptic just project their position on to the ecliptic. No problem. If stars are well outside the ecliptic use the paran feature of Solar Fire to see if they are on the angles or rising with a planet at the time of birth/horary etc. That is still symbolism. Its just symbolism based on what is really happening in the real sky. Pictures often explain these ideas better than words. I highly recommend anyone with Solar Fire to use its planetarium feature. You can actually then see in almost three dimensions where planerts and stars are in relationship to each. The Moon on Spica or Regulus for example means just that. Often the star is actually occulted by the Moon.

I encourage everyone to test all this out in their own charts. The secondary progressed Moon is the fastest planet so the easiest way to check regularly for hits to stars. If I am wrong about stars way outside the ecliptic working this way you will notice discerable effects. Its best to start with important bright fixed stars. It adds a whole new dimension to SP work as RC suggests. I am looking forward to my SP Moon getting to Spica! Very Happy

Quote:
having Aldebaran/POF in the 4th is interesting, because most of the 'fortune' that I [may] someday inherit is in real estate holdings. I say 'may', because one of Aldebaran's more negative implications is 'sudden losses and disasters'


Well you have the star in angular house natally so it will work more powerfully there. However, generally traditional sources saw fixed stars working more powerfully natally either on the angles ( esp Ascendant or MC) or with the Moon. Other planets can be important to but the more slow moving they are the less personal they are. So outer planets are much less important in fixed star work. Invisible points like lots get little mention in the literature I have read. I would not personally delineate the role of a fixed star on its own unless it was on an angle. Is it on the IC?
Anonymous of 379 suggests stars in mundo on angles represent phases of life. So the ASC =early life, MC +mid life, DESC=later life , IC= end of life/legacy after death. Obviously there are other approaches and a fixed star on a house cusp could be interpretated that way. Anonymous does talk about stars in certain houses too.

Here are some traditional views on Aldebaran:

Quote:
The chief star, Aldebaran is the 1st magnitude star referred to by Ptolemy as 'the Torch' on account of its bright, rose-coloured luminance. It is positioned on the southern or left eye of the Bull and is known by early authors as 'the Bright Eye of the Bull', 'Bull's Eye', Occulus Taurii; or by some Cor Taurii - the Heart of Taurus, referring not to its position but its prominency. The name is derived from the Arabic Al Dabaran, the Follower, ie., of the Pleiades. (Deborah Houlding)
Quote:
... to be fierce, full of courage, to delight in military affairs, unquiet, seditious; but the Moon in conjunction with it imports a good fellow, especially in the ascendant; but if the Lord of the ascendant be with the Moon in conjunction with that fixed star, he proves a murderer; the more probable if he be a masculine planet and the Sun unfortunate. Usually Saturn with Oculus Taurii produces great afflictions, and shows a strange mind and very wicked. ( William Lilly)

Of the direction of the Sun to Aldebaran Lilly writes:
''It shows the native occupied in military matters, to frame many warlike instruments, to devise many strategems, and that he shall be endangered by the deceit of his enemies, and in some peril of his life, but let him beware he fall not into their hands.'

Ascending or culminating with the Sun or Moon, Aldebaran 'opens the way to much honour for himself by his violence and fierceness, but with much difficulties and many casualties'. (William Lilly)

Quote:
''Another red star, traditionally known as 'the Torch'. Its influence is likened to Mars and it is said to give courage, great physical strength, success in battles or conflicts, and rises that follow heroism or the demonstration of enterprise. If afflicted it can be very unfortunate, suggesting danger, violence and an intemperate spirit.’ (Deborah Houlding)


Here is a more modern slant from Brady:
Quote:
One of the Royal Stars of Persia, The Watcher of the East. Like the other three Royal Stars, Aldebaran promises great success as long as certain conditions are fulfilled. The issue for Aldebaran is one of integrity. If the individual strives to achieve without compromising their integrity, then there can be great success. However, they will be tempted to compromise themselves and if they succumb, this is their downfall. Key Theme: Success through integrity.’ (Bernadette Brady)


Learning the planetary nature of the stars is important as this will influence how other planets transits, progressions and directions effect them. Incidentally, many sources do not explain what an 'afflicted' fixed star is. Often it represents a star and planet of different and conflicting planetary natures. Even worse though is a star of a malefic planetary association( esp Mars-saturn) conjunct a malefic ( Mars/saturn) or a sensitive point like the ASC/MC or the Moon. Fixed stars can 'supercharge' the good or negative planets in a chart for good or ill. Look at the English writer JK Rowling who wrote the Harry Potter books. Mercury on Regulus!


Last edited by Mark on Fri Sep 12, 2008 4:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Gunhilde



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Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been doing some research on the testimonies of wealth recently (per my 'Secret Millionaire' thread, which no-one answered, perhaps because wanting to be rich seems to many to be a tacky aspiration to have Laughing )...and because of Aldebaran being where it is I have done quite a bit of reading on it. The Mars nature is of course indisputable; and I am somewhat fortunate (for want of a better word) that a chunk of my natal chart is Martial (1st house Mars/Pisces in MR with 9th house Jupiter/Scorpio; Aries Moon sextile Mars though out of sign). This perhaps ameliorates the touchier aspects of a Martial fixed star (either that or I need to invest in Haliburton and weapons manufacture! Cool ).

Quote:
astrologers working with fixed stars probably need to learn a tad more astronomy to understand latitude, declination etc. For example, which stars rise in your vicinity and which dont? Which stars always stay up in the sky and never set? This is not complicated stuff but requires a bit of knowledge.


Oh, I absolutely agree; my problem is I don't absorb this sort of stuff readily just by reading books, so access is rather limited as I have no time right now to take a course, if such an one is offered. An many of the old treatises are written in such language to take years to plough through. I have enough trouble getting through a chapter of Lilly.

Quote:
Its just symbolism based on what is really happening in the real sky. Pictures often explain these ideas better than words
Yes, this is the elegance of it. I don't have Solar Fire (yet) so have to rely on Astrodienst for chart creation...it is great for general usage but of course has quite a few limitations. Perhaps with a more advanced programme I'll be inspired to play around with the less-common (but, as RC notes, not less important) fixed stars in charts.

GH Smile
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Mark
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Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry I do feel I rather guilty I have hi-jacked RC's thread. Afraid I get rather excited by fixed stars. Sorry RC. Sad

Just one more comment. I recently managed to co-ordinate the first visit of an astronomer to our astrology association. Fortunately, he was young and quite tolerant of astrology. We use astrological terms so often but getting an idea of size is amazing.

When he displayed up all the planets in size everyone started laughing when Pluto appeared. I know size isn't everything but wow isn't Pluto really tiny? I mean really, really tiny? Shocked

He also lined up stars together. Our Sun is also miniscule compared to red giants like Antares and Betelgeuse. I know you dont need this kind of knowledge to do astrology but it is interesting. We are all planning to go to the planetarium for a group visit. Thats one way to avoid books..go to a planetarium and ask lots of stupid questions! Just dont tell them you are an astrologer.... Secret

Anyway, i will shut up now and give someone else a chance.
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Gunhilde



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Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, having no idea what this means, it turns out that in my progressed chart I have Scheat near the Ascendant (Asc 29 Pisces). Mars is conjunct the Ascendant at 1 Aries...

Um...should I be worried?

GH Confused
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Mark
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Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So, having no idea what this means, it turns out that in my progressed chart I have Scheat near the Ascendant (Asc 29 Pisces). Mars is conjunct the Ascendant at 1 Aries...

Um...should I be worried?


Hi GH,

Sounds like you are our astrological lab rat. Shocked

Keep us posted. What degree and minutes is your progressed ASC exactly? Scheat is located at 29.28 Pisces right now if you project its position on to the zodiac (?). The progressed Mars in Aries has already passed it some time ago. So its separating anyway. Lala Happy You didn't say what degree and minutes your progressed Asc was at?

Another technique one could try are so called 'transits' of fixed stars. Of course the stars are not really moving its the effects of precession. Still with people with stars very close to a zodiacal point the star will either move closer or further from the natal point. I think someone looked at JFK's chart this way in to tie it in to his assassination. I am looking at Prince William's chart right now to see if it responds like this. Its slow stuff..1 degree every 72 years and 10 minutes every 12 years. Eat your heart out Sedna!
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RC



Joined: 29 Jul 2007
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Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gunhilde wrote:
So, having no idea what this means, it turns out that in my progressed chart I have Scheat near the Ascendant (Asc 29 Pisces). Mars is conjunct the Ascendant at 1 Aries...

Um...should I be worried?

GH Confused


Hi Gunhilde:

I didn't mean to worry you!

I observed the disasterous event when the DIRECTED ASC was conjunct Scheat. Looking at that same date, using secondary progression, the ASC was not at Scheat's point. I have not yet played with the chart to see if anything happened when the progressed ASC hit that point.

RC

p.s. MarkC, don't worry about hijacking the thread as you put it. Very Happy
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RC



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Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarkC wrote:
Hello RC,

Seems like we have an interesting role reversal going on here. I am supposed to be the gloomy fatalistic traditionalist and you the up beat modern astrologer. Laughing

I am interested what type of directions you mean here? Secondary progressions, solar arcs or primary directions?

While I do not use Brady's interpretations of stars myself, I do think she has enriched astrological technique with fixed stars tremendously. Here is an article by Brady on the star:

http://www.visualastrology.co.uk/blogg/index.php/2007/10/14/scheat-a-beautiful-mind-or-as-fragile-as-glass/

.


Thanks for that link. I looked at that chart (using 7 AM EST i think he put in wrong time). He had MC at 00 Aries. At that time Scheat was at 28:22 Pisces so that really was a bit off. I'm not sure I would count that as a conjunction for the malefic effect to have an affect on that chart.

No one will ever convince me Scheat is not an "omen of disaster".

Haven't had time yet to read the rests of these posts.

RC
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chrysalis



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Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the natal Sun to progress to Scheat would be a worry yes, but typically something really major in the life is announced with more than one progression perfecting near the same time. Still it might be wise for your friend to avoid boating for the time being.

One of the better examples I can recall of the influence of Scheat manifesting in mundane astrology is in the new Moon chart prior to hurricane Katrina, when set for New Orleans, Louisiana (August 4th, 2005 10:03 pm, CDT.) Scheat is dead on the ascendant.
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Mark
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Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Correct me if I am wrong but I thought the main chart people have been using for Hurricane Katrina is 06.10am CDT on 29/08/2005 when it hit landfall on US territory?

http://www.astrodatabank.com/NM/HurricaneKatrina.htm

http://www.daykeeperjournal.com/aacharts/katrina.htm

If we start introducing every kind of chart and astrological permutation there is bound to be an appropriate hit along the way somewhere.

Scheat seems surprisingly quiet in the chart of the event that brought about the worst hurricane in modern American history history Thumbs down Fixed stars have always been seen at their most powerful on the angles or near key planets.

The big player that day is actually Regulus on the ascendant. The ascendant is disposed by a peregrine Mercury in the 12th house. Interestingly, both have associations with homelessness. Because Regulus is close to the ecliptic that is where is was that day. The star Algorab is on the MC ruler ( Venus) and the south Node.
Quote:
It gives destructiveness, malevolence, fiendishness, repulsiveness and lying, and is connected with scavenging. (Robson).

Delays and restraint are indicated to come about by fiascoes, losses, wrong handling of matters and enmity in general. Accidents or injuries, difficult to avoid. (Fixed Stars and Their Interpretation, Elsbeth Ebertin, 1923)

Unfortunately, we cannot locate the position of Scheat so easily as its so far outside the ecliptic. With a latitude of +31.08 north of the ecliptic projecting its position on the zodiac for the whole planet will give us no idea on what zodiacal degree it was actually co-arising on in Buras, Louisiana.


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