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Help! Experiences with Scheat
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margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 1367
Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Ah he sounds like Morin! Still Morin seems to have been a very good astrologer despite his prejudices and arrogance.


Hello Mark,
I don't think Cardano or Morin hated Arabs because they were Arab.
Anyway about Morin surely Tom could say more.
Cardano was thinking - especially after he could read Camerarius translation of Tetrabiblos from the Greek in 1548 - that Medieval Arab translations were not true to the originals texts.
And moreover he was writing after Pico della Mirandola and when Great conjunction theory had showed serious flaws because of the wrong prediction of 1524 deluge.

Cardano wrote about his new vision of astrology in his comment to Tetrabiblos, but I have in my library since years the complete Italian translation of Aphorisms by Giuseppe Bezza, so I can tell you he wrote against Albumasar and Firmicus at least since that work.
It was not a new trend in astrology in fact; before him, since the second half of 1400, Giovanni Pontano wrote the same about Centiloquium.

Quote:

As Bonatti was relying closely on Arabic sources I think its far more likely their star lore may have influenced him. However, I hope to talk to Ben Dykes about this specific issue soon and will get his view.


Yes, it would be interesting to know more about Bonatti sources, ask if you have the possibility.
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RC



Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Posts: 475

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RC wrote:
chrysalis wrote:
For the natal Sun to progress to Scheat would be a worry yes, but typically something really major in the life is announced with more than one progression perfecting near the same time. Still it might be wise for your friend to avoid boating for the time being.

One of the better examples I can recall of the influence of Scheat manifesting in mundane astrology is in the new Moon chart prior to hurricane Katrina, when set for New Orleans, Louisiana (August 4th, 2005 10:03 pm, CDT.) Scheat is dead on the ascendant.


My friend had overwhelming thoughts of suicide one night recently and asked me to stay with them until they passed. They truly did not trust themselves not to do it and were really scared of their own thoughts!

This was so out of the ordinary for them. Until I directed their chart today, I didn't know what was causing this. Sun is right on 29:28 Pisces in their directed 12th house. One of the readings for Scheat is suicidal thoughts.

RC


My friend had only one other time where he felt suicidal/homicidal. One of the worst times of his life he stated. He gave the date of that event. I directed his natal chart to it.

That was March 1978:
At that time, his directed Asc., Venus was in detriment, in the directed first house at 00 Aries, conjunct Scheat!


RC
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RC



Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Posts: 475

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kerenhappuch wrote:


RC - you seem pretty fired up about the effects of this star. Any more information on the specific events you have seen linked to it? An example would be useful for illustration.

Keren


Keren:

It was too painful & personal to talk about. Let me just say it was the single worst event in my life which actually put my life at risk. Although I eventually came out of it okay as promised in my natal chart, there were ramifications from it which have followed me in some way ever since. That was back in 1974.

My advice for anyone who's directed ASC is conjoining Scheat would be to be extremely careful in every decision, every step you took until it had passed and not to take any risks whatsoever.

RC
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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4955
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello RC,

I am still unclear what you mean by a 'direction' here. You have stated earlier you were not using secondary progressions. Can I ask again is this a direction of the Ascendant by solar arc or by primary direction? The latter approach would be consistent with approach used by Lilly and the 17th century astrologers. The former use of solar arcs and fixed stars projected on to the zodiac would co-incide with the style of Ebertin and the Uranian astrologers.

Clearly what you describe sounds a very powerful event. I am sure as astrologers we would all seek a satisfactory explanation through our chart of something that significant. What I find so unusual about your position is your view that this was only reflected by this particular direction to this fixed star in your chart. Most predictive astrologers look for the 'rule of three' ie they seek to find other supporting testimony to support a particular event prediction/description.

For example, the astrologer Morin looked to primary directions, solar returns, lunar returns and transits. Many traditional astrologers also used profections. Were there no other significant indicators in the charts?

In regards the technique you are using I think I have set out my position clearly enough and at considerable length! It seems this is just another area where astrologers of equal sincerity find themselves in total disagreement. We can therefore add fixed star technique in with zodiacs, houses, aspects, sign rulerships, etc. Confused
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Mark
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Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I recall a time in the last couple of years where the Moon was right next to - I think it was Antares? - I could be wrong - but I went outside to see, thankfully the sky was clear and I live in a rural area, and I was very taken with how it looked in the sky - to see the Moon right next to a star that I had read about.

Hi Keren,

Glad you found the post useful. I perhaps need to develop a potted version to get over key points!

What you describe sounds quite plausible in regards Antares. Antares has a latitude of -4.34 and the Moon dips up and down 5 degrees either side of the ecliptic. This is of course the source of the lunar Nodes. The great thing about working with the actual positions of stars on the angles or with planets though is that we can break away from focusing exclusively on just the ecliptic. Our astrology can embrace the whole night sky as it 'touches the earth'.

Incidentally, you asked how astrologers arrived at the projected zodiac positions for stars? Actually, most astrologers using this technique have no idea! There are actually two totally different ways to do this mathematically. The original method of zodiacal projection was proposed by Ptolemy in his book of astronomy and star catalogue known as the Almagest. Ptolemy projected ecliptical degrees based on the poles of the ecliptic. He listed 1022 stars in the Almagest and their projected ecliptical degrees , were then precessed through the ages, with each generation of astrologers adding the current rate of precession to find the current ecliptical degree of a star in their time. Ptolemy's star catalogue was used in this manner for well over a thousand years until the time of the Mongolian-Turkish astronomer Ulugh Beg (1394-1449) and again in the time of the German astrologer and mathematician Regiomontanus (1436-1476). Both these astronomers re-plotted all of Ptolemy's star catalog, and laid the foundations for later work. In particular, Albrecht Durer ( 1471-1528) produced star maps based on the poles of the equator rather than the poles of the ecliptic used by Ptolemy. Using this new method all of Ptolemy's stars were projected on to a different zodiacal degree. Astrologers at this time seem to have accepted this change in technique in how stars were projected. Since then, astrologers and astronomers have all worked with stars positions projected from the poles of the equator rather than the ecliptic.

However, it needs to be appreciated these are just mathematical conventions to give us a generalised hook for the celestial position of stars in relation to the earth. In either case, if an astrologer is using this technique, they need to understand it seldom bears much relationship to the actual position of stars in the sky.

The two methods project a star on to quite different degrees of the zodiac. For example, using Ptolemy's method based on poles of the ecliptic the star Regulus was at 29.42 Leo in 2000CE. However, using the modern method based on poles of the celestial equator the star was at 26.20 Leo in 2000CE. A difference of over 3 degrees! So who is right? In astrological terms maybe the whole approach is misguided and we need to be considering the local sky as Bernadette Brady suggests.

To do that though astrologers need to break free of a limited mind set which seeks to fit everything into the ecliptic.

I do think we should all try to learn more about the actual night sky. I know lots of astrologers who complain astronomers never take us seriously. Frankly though why should they? If astrology means wisdom or study of the stars we owe it to our art to do the basics. The problem is that books about this are usually very dry. Also the light pollution in our cities means actual observation is harder than ever before. I recommend going to a planetarium or even an astromomy observers group. There is also some good software around specifically aimed at astrologers. Martin Lewicki's is one of the best. In regards fixed stars Bernadette Brady's software 'Starlight' takes fixed star work to a whole new level. Of course if you live in the countryside or are visiting remote locations you have a great opportunity to recapture a little bit of the pure awe our ancestors must have had looking up at the clear night sky.

The bright stars to look out for on the ecliptic are Aldebaran (Taurus) Regulus (Leo), Spica ( Virgo), Antares (Scorpius) and Pollux (Gemini). If you project them on to the zodiac they have all moved through precession to the next sign in the tropical zodiac apart from Regulus which is imminently about to leave Leo and Ingress into the sign of Virgo(Or is it ? See note above on different methods opf zodiacal projection). Historically, Regulus in Leo has been linked to the Roman empire and the Roman Catholic Church. It will be interesting what happens with this star moving into the tropical sign of the Goddess. One can only hope the Virgo associations with prudence and fertility will symbolise much greater care and stewardship for our planet in to millenia to come. Of course, as we saw above, it rather depends how you plot the position of stars!
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RC



Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Posts: 475

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarkC wrote:
Hello RC,

I am still unclear what you mean by a 'direction' here. You have stated earlier you were not using secondary progressions. Can I ask again is this a direction of the Ascendant by solar arc or by primary direction? The latter approach would be consistent with approach used by Lilly and the 17th century astrologers. The former use of solar arcs and fixed stars projected on to the zodiac would co-incide with the style of Ebertin and the Uranian astrologers.


Hi Mark:

I am using a direction of the ASC by solar arc. Sorry, I didn't see your question if you asked that before. I confess there was a bit more info in your posts than I've had the time to read and I am mainly interested in hearing about others' experiences with Scheat.

As for other confirmations, I'm sure they are there. I always look for them and agree you need at least three confirmations.

As a quick check, I just looked at some single worst event in my life and that of my friend to see if Scheat was in play and it was. I am sure the overall chart confirmed that. It could not be otherwise with such tragic events unfolding. I have had bad years, disappointments, major challenges - where Scheat was not in play. Those events were not disasterous or tragic however.

RC
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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
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Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi RC,

Quote:
I am using a direction of the ASC by solar arc. Sorry, I didn't see your question if you asked that before.

Thanks. Yes I did raise it at the beginning of thread but I can hardly blame you for missing it. Very Happy
Quote:
I confess there was a bit more info in your posts than I've had the time to read..
Again I appreciate that. You might want to check my last post though. You may or not be aware that there are two distinctly different ways of projecting a stars position on to the zodiac. For example is Regulus at 26 or 29 degrees Leo? Is Scheat at 28 ( Ptolemy) or 29 Pisces? (Durer)
Quote:
and I am mainly interested in hearing about others' experiences with Scheat.

Fair enough. I am clearly not on board for the reasons I have given. I will leave you and the other convinced Scheat-phobiacs to it from here on unless responding to a particular post addressed to me.
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RC



Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Posts: 475

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarkC wrote:
I will leave you and the other convinced Scheat-phobiacs to it from here on unless responding to a particular post addressed to me.


Scheat-phobiacs Sick

Is that what I am now?

Laughing
RC
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Mark
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Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am only digging a deeper hole for myself if I seek to elaborate any further. Laughing

Ok, shall we compromise on 'Scheat-survivors'?

Mark
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RC



Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Posts: 475

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarkC wrote:
I am only digging a deeper hole for myself if I seek to elaborate any further. Laughing

Ok, shall we compromise on 'Scheat-survivors'?

Mark


LOL!! Now, that's a good one! Okay, count me as a Scheat-survivor!

Lala Happy

RC
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Gunhilde



Joined: 10 Jun 2006
Posts: 800

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have trouble even pronouncing its name. It's supposed to be 'skat', I believe (?), but my inclination is to pronounce it 'shee-yat', which is what cowboys say when they step in a pile of manure.

Cool

I'll go see if I can figure out my directed ascendant from a few years back. That was a black, black time for me,

and RC: you mentioned suicidal thoughts in your friend. For me at this particular time, they were daily. Sometimes hourly.

Then again, I was also experiencing a transiting Pluto/natal Venus/Sun conjunction (never again! Yay!), so that might be it as well...

Off to look.

Edit: Okay, five years ago my progressed ascendant was 22 Pisces, and I had Mars at 27 Pisces 24. I don't have any idea what a directed chart is, but I do find it interesting that, with Mars so near Scheat I experienced both daily suicidal thoughts and extremely violent rages...I was treated for depression, but I think they missed out on half the diagnosis. Even more peculiar is that in 2006 the Scheat/Mars conjunction was exact, but by this time I was in counselling.

The funny thing is, I look back on that time period like it was a strange dream belonging to some other person. I don't have *any* of those feelings any more; not the depression, not the suicidal thoughts, not the rages. Odd.

(Sorry, MarkC for any and all inaccuracies resulting from my ignorance of longitude/latitude)
GH
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kerenhappuch



Joined: 07 Jul 2005
Posts: 396
Location: UK

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks MarkC for your posts. So it was Antares - I was sure it was. It is useful to have that list of the brightest stars closest to the ecliptic - I will attempt to use Solar Fire to find out when the Moon or a planet is close to one of those stars and to make it my mission to go outside and actually see it happening! You also make an interesting point on "sneaking into" a planetarium. I have wanted to do that before but never had a chance. I will make one now though Laughing

Back to Scheat: I will have a look through my progressions and Solar Arc directions and see if I can find a pattern where planets have passed over Scheat (28-29 degrees Pisces). It may be that the brunt of it has yet to come; Jupiter will pass over there in around two year's time by solar arc, and my Ascendant, which seems to be a point of contention, not for 24 years!! I will keep you posted Laughing

Keren
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Mark
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Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now I have got my 'watch the skies' message out of my system I will share this article by Deb Houlding which discusses the Scheat menace in the poet Shelley's chart.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/shelley.html

Its quite unusual in discussing aspects to fixed stars based on zodiacal projection. I think Robson really only discussed the conjunction and opposition.

GH-Those positions dont sound that close to Scheat even if you are working with the zodiacal projection method. The 'orb' for this technique would usually be no more than a degree at the most for a second magnitude star like Scheat.
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