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Parallels
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Night Sky



Joined: 13 Sep 2008
Posts: 127

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:51 pm    Post subject: Parallels Reply with quote

Ok, read over and over it says parallel = conjunction, or similar to conjunction.


Most of the time parallels coincide with conjunctions. The nature of the beast.




But how about an EXACT PARALLEL with no ordinary visible aspect between. No similarity by element, though the planets and points are exact in parallel?

Can you say, "yep these planets are parallel... I'll just read up on the conjunction interpretation and that will signifiy the exact same."

?

?

?
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margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
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Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:16 am    Post subject: Re: Parallels Reply with quote

Quote:
But how about an EXACT PARALLEL with no ordinary visible aspect between. No similarity by element, though the planets and points are exact in parallel?


When two planets are in parallel they are in aspect for what I know. This is important when an aspect is needed, for example like Moon and Mercury for Ptolemy's qualities of soul.
Moreover two planets in parallel but far in the zodiacal degrees are in antiscia, and this is a very peculiar and strong aspect.
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Night Sky



Joined: 13 Sep 2008
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Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How do you interpret Antiscia? It is not the same as parallel, but I have heard that it is important. I have know it to be used in synastry... How much importance would you place on both of these aspects?
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margherita



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Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
How do you interpret Antiscia? It is not the same as parallel,


For what I understand planets in antiscia are parallels of declination in signs of equal power.

Quote:
but I have heard that it is important. I have know it to be used in synastry... How much importance would you place on both of these aspects?


I heard the same too. Cardano writes in his Aphorisms VII.158 (I'm translating from my Italian complete version by Giuseppe Bezza) "Antiscia deriving from ascending in the same time, join people souls, but the ones deriving from the same distance from tropics, join planetary strenghts."
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Philip Graves



Joined: 07 Jan 2005
Posts: 436
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Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Most of the time parallels coincide with conjunctions


I think you'll find that this is the case almost half the time, rather than most of the time.

I hope you don't mind being referred to the relevant section of the most recent draft (itself almost five years old now) of an introductory article on aspects I once wrote for a beginner-level astrological discussion site:
http://groups.msn.com/horoscopeschat/aspects3.msnw

You will see that I described two conditions under which parallels of declination are formed, in relation to whether the planets are on the same or opposite sides of a line from 0 degrees Cancer to 0 degrees Capricorn. If they are on the same side, then the simultaneous presence of a conjunction (as measured by degrees) is probable (eg a planet at 12 deg Taurus and one at 13 deg Taurus are likely to be parallel unless one of them has a significant amount more or less latitude than the other). If they are on opposite sides (eg one at 0 deg Gemini and one at 1 deg Leo), it is impossible for a conjunction to be present together with the parallel unless the two planets are within a few degrees of the tropics (eg one at 28 deg Gemini and one at 3 deg Cancer) - in most cases there will be only a parallel present, and no conjunction.

Solstice points and antiscia are measured by longitude, not declination. Two planets that are parallel and conjunct cannot be related by antiscia (again, unless the conjunction is formed between planets very close to 0 degrees Cancer or 0 degrees Capricorn, and on opposite sides of either of these two points). Two planets that are parallel and on opposite sides of the imaginary line connecting the tropics will probably be related by antiscia unless for reasons of differences in latitude or closeness to boundaries between signs the parallel is formed out of antiscion sign relationship.

I hope I haven't confused you there! Perhaps someone can explain this more simply?
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margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
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Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You will see that I described two conditions under which parallels of declination are formed, in relation to whether the planets are on the same or opposite sides of a line from 0 degrees Cancer to 0 degrees Capricorn.


Many thanks for the link.
I was not clear still I meant exactly this. Signs of equal power are according Ptolemy " two signs, equally distant from either tropical sign, are equal to each other in power; because the Sun, when present in one, makes day and night, and the divisions of time, respectively equal in duration to those which he produces when present in the other. Such signs are also said to behold each other, as well for the foregoing reasons, as because each of them rises from one and the same part of the horizon, and sets in one and the same part"
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Philip Graves



Joined: 07 Jan 2005
Posts: 436
Location: Europe

Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Gijada! I was replying mostly to Night Sky whose original assertion that parallels most of the time coincide with conjunctions simply struck me as inaccurate enough to warrant an explanation of why they coincide with them only about half the time. Then I went into a brief diversion on antiscia because you had mentioned them in an earlier reply, but I wasn't intending to contradict you so much as to clarify the distinction between antiscia and parallels for Night Sky's sake.

At the time I wrote my article (between six and five years ago) I was using mostly secondary sources such as J. Lee Lehman's 'Classical Astrology for Modern Living' and Joseph Crane's 'A Practical Guide to Traditional Astrology' to elucidate what is meant technically by antiscia and contra-antiscia in particular - Dr. Lehman is especially strong and lucid on this point, among many others in her book, and I seem to remember the thrust of her presentation being towards a whole sign view of antiscia, on which basis it would be stated that a planet at 0 degrees Gemini and one at 0 degrees Leo, for example, are not related by antiscia because Gemini and Leo do not behold each other, even though these same two planets are highly likely to be parallel each other in those positions of the tropical zodiac.

When Ptolemy (in your citation) is defining signs of equal power, he is essentially grouping Gemini with Cancer, Taurus with Leo, Aries with Virgo, Pisces with Libra, Aquarius with Scorpio, and Capricorn with Sagittarius - the signs that are directly opposite each other from (or, to put it a mathematically graphic way, that are each other's reflection about) the imaginary line or axis running between 0 degrees Capricorn and 0 degrees Cancer in any horoscopic figure.

It follows (to use Ptolemy's description) that the Sun spends the same amount of time above the horizon on average in the northern hemisphere in Gemini as it does in Cancer, the same amount in Taurus as it does in Leo, and so on.

But I don't think that 'parallels of declination in signs of equal power' is in fact a satisfactory definition for antiscia, for several reasons:

Firstly, if a whole sign view of antiscia is taken, then planets may be related by antiscia simply by being in signs of equal power but on the opposite side of the tropical axis from each other - for example, a planet at 0 degrees Aries and one at 2 degrees Virgo are in signs that behold each other, but the solstice point of 0 degrees Aries is 29 degrees Virgo, a long way off from 2 degrees, and it is virtually inconceivable that a parallel of declination should be present between planets situated at 0 deg. Aries and 2 deg. Virgo.

Secondly, if a degree-precise view of antiscia is taken, with the solstice points being precisely calculated to the degree, then planets may be in antiscion aspect by being in signs and degrees of equal power but on the opposite side of the tropical axis from each other, in other words at each other's exact solstice points, but they may or may not be parallel each other, depending on the relative levels of latitude of the two planets from the celestial ecliptic, any significant difference in which could result in one having significantly more declination than the other.

Philip
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Ed F



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
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Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Which to sum up less verbosely says: antiscia are often the same as parallels of declination, and contra-antiscia are often the same as contr-parallels. But not always because planets can have latitude.

So, what are the interpretive consequences?

- Ed
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Night Sky



Joined: 13 Sep 2008
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Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I want to thank everyone who has helped me with understanding these particular points which i believe are an important facet of astrology and definitely not to be ignored.

Last night actually I worked out myself that the Antiscia are based solely on Longitude in relation to the Winter/Summer Solstice at 00 Capricorn or Cancer.

At first I noticed that parallel aspects were fairly close to the anticia, which is why I managed to confuse the two at the beginning thinking that they were one and the same thing.

To me though it appears that the Anticia are just an old fashioned way of looking at parallels... since to calculate parallels of declination is not easily done without computers... it is the third dimension of space, which is latitude.

To me now I am coming to the conclusion that the parallel, and contra-parallel are probably more of a significant and accurate aspect, since the Antiscia are only really related through the symbolically important solstice points.


I would still appreciate it though as Ed F has also asked, to try and explain the power to which we can ascribe the parallel aspect. Whether conjunct a planet or not. (You are right on that one too Philip thanks. : )

The common definition is "similar to conjunction." I wonder and question this assertion. A one degree orb is fine, maybe even a half a degree.

But yes it is the interpretation that really interests me now, since sorting out that Antiscia business.
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margherita



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Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
To me now I am coming to the conclusion that the parallel, and contra-parallel are probably more of a significant and accurate aspect, since the Antiscia are only really related through the symbolically important solstice points.


Hello!
I don't think so exactly because something you mentioned, i.e. sinastry.
We have so many ancient astrologers mentioning that planets in antiscia or contrantiscia are a very close link in sinastry, especially the ones between fixed signs.
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Philip Graves



Joined: 07 Jan 2005
Posts: 436
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Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ed, you ask a very good question, and one I'm unfortunately not the best placed person to answer as I haven't done extensive practical research on this.

But I think that simply being aware of the various possibilities for the simultaneous or separate presence of parallels, antiscia and conjunctions is a good start, thus:
A) Same-sign conjunction without parallel between two planets on same side of tropical axis;
B) Same-sign conjunction with parallel between two planets on same side of tropical axis;
C) Out-of-sign conjunction by degrees without parallel between two planets on same side of tropical axis;
D) Out-of-sign conjunction by degrees with parallel between two planets on same side of tropical axis;
E) Parallel between two planets on same side of tropical axis, but without conjunction
F) Out-of-sign conjunction by degrees across the tropical axis, with parallel and antiscial whole sign relation but not antiscion aspect measured by degrees;
G) Out-of-sign conjunction by degrees across the tropical axis, with parallel and antiscion aspect measured by degrees;
H) Out-of-sign conjunction by degrees across the tropical axis, without parallel but with antiscial whole sign relation, but not antiscion aspect measured by degrees;
I) Out-of-sign conjunction by degrees across the tropical axis, without parallel but with antiscion aspect measured by degrees;
J) No conjunction, but parallel between two planets on opposite side of tropical axis, without antiscial whole sign relation;
K) No conjunction, but parallel between two planets on opposite side of tropical axis, with antiscial whole sign relation but not antiscion aspect measured by degrees;
L) No conjunction, but parallel between two planets on opposite side of tropical axis, with antiscion aspect measured by degrees;
M) No conjunction or parallel, but antiscial whole sign relation without antiscion aspect measured by degrees, between two planets on opposite side of tropical axis;
N) No conjunction or parallel, but antiscion aspect by degrees, between two planets on opposite side of tropical axis.

Of the above configurations, those from F) to I) inclusive are only possible if the two planets concerned are either in Gemini and Cancer respectively, or in Sagittarius and Capricorn respectively.

E) is only going to occur where one planet has considerably more latitude than the other, but is increasingly likely the closer the planets are to the tropics and very unlikely close to the equinoxes, since towards the tropics a one degree increase in longitude corresponds with a much smaller increase (or decrease) in declination compared with towards the equinoxes.

There should be about the same number of possible configurations again relating to oppositions, contra-parallels and contra-antiscia, but perhaps it would be superfluous to list these here since it should be easy enough to work them out.

Where the interpretation of antiscia is concerned, I think it would be really useful research for someone to pull together a list of references from all the ancient, medieval and Renaissance sources in order to assess how they have been used through history.

I don't know how many ancient references there may be to the interpretation of parallels, and somewhat suspect there may be rather fewer than with antiscia, but this could be interesting to look into too. There have certainly been several modern books dedicated completely to the interpretaton of parallels, by authors such as L Furze Morrish, Charles Jayne, K T Boehrer and Leigh Westin, and as soon as I get the chance to unpack my copies of all of the above a couple of months from now, I think that it could be interesting to see if their authors have had anything to say about the simultaneous or differential presence of antiscia and parallels between the same pair of planets. But I'm not sure that at the time of most 20th century declination research these astrologers were all that interested in the classical concept of antiscia. Or were they?
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Night Sky



Joined: 13 Sep 2008
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Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, that's all very well giving a list of all of the possible combinations of when a parallel might occur, but you totally avoided my question.







HOW do you interpret a parallel aspect in a natal chart?










If you read up for the conjunction... would you say it has the same power as the conjunction, and I am talking about an exact parallel 00'01 minutes of LATITUDE.

So...Anything you can think of is much appreciated.

NS
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Philip Graves



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Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi NightSky!

I was in fact answering Ed's earlier response there, not avoiding your original question, which I had at no point specifically addressed, because the whole thrust of my contribution to this strand has been to clarify the technical facets of parallels and antiscia in the first instance, without which any attempt at interpretation runs the risk of cloudiness and misapplication.

Conventionally a parallel has been interpreted as having a similar effect and power to a conjunction as far as I can remember reading, correct.

However, I would not wish to presume that analogy to conjunctions is as far as we can go with interpreting parallels. But my books on declination and parallels having been in storage for a year, and in fact absolutely all my books on astrology currently being in storage, I would rather not attempt to convey any more subtle nuance to the interpretation of parallels in the birth chart (in differentiation from that of conjunctions) without the opportunity to look up references from the works by modern authors who have dedicated entire books to that one topic first. As mentioned in an earlier post, these include Charles Jayne ('Parallels: Their Hidden Meaning'), L. Furze Morrish ('The Parallel in astrology' or similar title), K. T. Boehrer ('Declination: the Other Dimension') and Leigh Westin ('Beyond the Solstice by Declination').

However, I think there is real value in considering at a theoretical level the possible effect on the interpretation of parallels and antiscia of the simultaneous presence or absence of the other, and of conjunctions or other Ptolemaic aspects, between the same factors, so I don't think that listing those various possible permutations was a pointless exercise at all.

My hunch would be, for example, that a conjunction allied to a parallel would be more powerful than either in isolation; and for another example, that a parallel allied to an antiscion by degrees would be stronger than one without the other. The more ways in which the two planets are connected by any of these aspects or familiarities, the greater the blending of their energies should be, and the more important the moderating influence of each planet on any matters governed by the other, because their interconnectedness is reinforced by multiple bonds. This is of course merely untested theoretical thinking, unsupported by practical experience and testing on a large sample of different nativities, which is why I don't want to sound overconfident about it. I'm merely throwing out ideas that might be worthy of investigation if nobody has already investigated them and come to well-established conclusions already.

Philip
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Night Sky



Joined: 13 Sep 2008
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Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I agree with that interpretation. That is satisfactory as far as it goes.

To say a conjunction by longitude combined with a parallel should be a stronger conjunction by a degree of 100% though would be the next step.

For a conjunction on its own with no parallel aspect should therefore be less of a conjunction. The planets in the sky are simply not close to each other as they would be if they were parallel.


I am really interested though in the power of a parallel aspect on its own. I think that this would be the key and the test in finding out the real POWER involved in a parallel aspect.

I have noticed some work here and there on the internet with claims that outer planets forming parallels with each other have coincided with great world events, which are not noticable in LONGITUDE analysis. One curious one which comes to mind is that Pluto and Neptune were parallel between 1917- 1918. Influenza took place as well as the Russian revolution which in the article both are linked to that Neptune influence combined with Pluto.

To me this would be conclusive proof of the Parallel aspect being powerful in its own right without the presence of any other longitudinal aspect. And to add longitude or antiscia would simply be extra. My real question here is about proving the power and strength of PARALLEL and indeed contraparallel on its own terms.

Can you look at some charts and data. And see if you can connect parallels and coroberrate what I have found?

Thanks NS
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RC



Joined: 29 Jul 2007
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Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Parallels Reply with quote

Night Sky wrote:
Ok, read over and over it says parallel = conjunction, or similar to conjunction.


You should look for parallel from moon to POF as well.

Contra parallel works like an opposition.

RC
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