Morbid obesity

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Has anyone caught those shows on cable television which profiles people who are morbidly obese? Some of them are close to 1000 pounds.

It is shocking to see and for most people probably hard to understand. I would like to see the natal charts of those with this affliction. I would think they might have Jupiter badly afflicted in Cancer or some similar placement.

Max Heindel wrote:
If Jupiter is afflicted it inclines to inordinate gluttony which will eventually corrupt the blood and cause such disease and noxious growths as result from that condition.
But I seem to remember that Taurus can also be involved with a tendency to gluttony.

These people describe their urge to eat in terms of an addiction. They describe the urge to keep eating as uncontrollable and overwhelming. It is really sad.

Does anyone know of any such charts that we could look at?

RC

Re: Morbid obesity

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RC wrote:Max Heindel wrote:
If Jupiter is afflicted it inclines to inordinate gluttony which will eventually corrupt the blood and cause such disease and noxious growths as result from that condition.
Hi RC,

I don't know about this Max Heindel quotation, but I'm not sure if Jupiter should signify obesity. I know that Jupiter is associated with excess in modern astrology, but in the old texts it's frequently said to signify just the opposite: temperance and prudence. It's in fact a bit surprising.

Here's some people with Jupiter on the Ascendant, and while they have a certain common 'Jupiterian' look, they don't look obese. Many of them actually have quite a slim face.
http://koti.welho.com/jmetsovu/Kuvat/jupiter.htm
With obesity I would maybe look at the Moon which signifies bodily needs... and of course the condition of the Ascendant and its ruler, whatever planet that might be. And then we have Venus who too is prone to the pleasures of senses.

Re: Morbid obesity

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Papretis wrote:
RC wrote:Max Heindel wrote:
If Jupiter is afflicted it inclines to inordinate gluttony which will eventually corrupt the blood and cause such disease and noxious growths as result from that condition.
Hi RC,

I don't know about this Max Heindel quotation, but I'm not sure if Jupiter should signify obesity. I know that Jupiter is associated with excess in modern astrology, but in the old texts it's frequently said to signify just the opposite: temperance and prudence. It's in fact a bit surprising.

Here's some people with Jupiter on the Ascendant, and while they have a certain common 'Jupiterian' look, they don't look obese. Many of them actually have quite a slim face.
http://koti.welho.com/jmetsovu/Kuvat/jupiter.htm
With obesity I would maybe look at the Moon which signifies bodily needs... and of course the condition of the Ascendant and its ruler, whatever planet that might be. And then we have Venus who too is prone to the pleasures of senses.
He was referring to an afflicted Jupiter in the sign of cancer or 4th house. Cancer ruling the stomach, over indulging etc.

You could never reach such a conclusion merely because one had Jupiter on the Asc.! There must be a serious affliction which would have bearing on the appetite and the body and over doing, enlarging, obsessive behavior, etc.

RC

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Some thoughts which are not backed by any chart experience or research:

Jupiter afflicted would seem to be a possible contributor as a weakened sense of moderation. A strong Jupiter would indicate a healthy sense of moderation. So it's not so much Jupiterian excess as it is the lack of Jupiterian moderation. I agree that Jupiter as excess seems to be a more recent idea. If anyone has info to the contrary, please let us know.

The Moon and Venus look like bigger culprits. They are both feminine, and therefore represent 'in-taking' and a drawing toward oneself ? the Moon for physical incarnation and sustenance and Venus for sensual pleasure. But Venus, as a benefic, also is a factor of moderation, so it would seem to need to be an afflicted Venus ? a Venus who has somehow lost her ability for moderation. The Moon, as 'irrational mind', signifies habitual and repetitive actions. Perhaps feminine signs also incline toward obesity, along with the nocturnal sect. Maybe a Moon in trouble alongside an afflicted Venus, a distracted Jupiter, with prominent feminine signs in a nocturnal chart all make for a grotesque 1000-pound monster ? someone you don't want stepping on your foot.

A major factor of weight loss is masculine outgoing energy ? exercise.

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A strong Jupiter would indicate a healthy sense of moderation. So it's not so much Jupiterian excess as it is the lack of Jupiterian moderation.
Well put, Kirk, but consider - a lack of moderation by definition leads to excess - of fervour, enthusiasm, righteousness, and general over-the-top reactions.

If Jupiter is dignified in your nativity, it's easier to maintain Jupiter's "wise, prudent" manner while under the influence of a Jupiter transit. If not, I know from experience it's a good idea to invest in a pair of lead sandals.

Tara

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Nicely put Kirk!
A major factor of weight loss is masculine outgoing energy ? exercise.
I think temperament is the key here. Melancholic types especially come to mind here. RC might be better off looking into this area than into individual planets/houses.

My immediate thoughts are to look for an afflicted 2nd house, or Saturn opp/square/conj the Lights. The 2nd is the attitude to food, and Saturn has got to be important because low self-esteem and obesity go hand in hand.

I note that of my four friends with Moon in Taurus, the three males have a tendency to overeating, snacking unhealthily, and generally eating very poorly. All have Mars in water signs, and a predominance of water and earth placements, making me think that Kirk's point is extremely important, and that temperament is vital here.

My female friend with Moon in Taurus has Mars in a water sign too however - now I'm wondering why she isn't running to fat too!

Non-astrological aside - this level of obesity is unprecedented, a result of modern Western lifestyles and culture. I doubt that the mediaeval rules will apply as they are written. Caution and context must be applied ;)

I think it has got to be to do with temperament. Interesting!

Keren

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Kirk wrote:The Moon and Venus look like bigger culprits. They are both feminine, and therefore represent 'in-taking' and a drawing toward oneself ? the Moon for physical incarnation and sustenance and Venus for sensual pleasure. But Venus, as a benefic, also is a factor of moderation, so it would seem to need to be an afflicted Venus ? a Venus who has somehow lost her ability for moderation. The Moon, as 'irrational mind', signifies habitual and repetitive actions. Perhaps feminine signs also incline toward obesity, along with the nocturnal sect. Maybe a Moon in trouble alongside an afflicted Venus, a distracted Jupiter, with prominent feminine signs in a nocturnal chart all make for a grotesque 1000-pound monster ? someone you don't want stepping on your foot.

A major factor of weight loss is masculine outgoing energy ? exercise.
Good observations there. I've personally noticed Venus combust people have a sweet tooth and a tendancy to indulge themselves. I'm for example, a kind of 'I'd rather walk than wait for a bus' person (impatient) and unable to just sit and watch TV wtihout doing something else(prefer reading).

I also agree with Keren that temperament can be very important, as well as the predominance of feminie factors in the chart as pointed out by Kirk.
And maybe also the AC/Sun/Moon in Fixed signs??

Which planet rules metabolism by the way?

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Gem wrote:Which planet rules metabolism by the way?
It might be Saturn. Saturn symbolises all decay and decomposition. Saturn is also traditionally known for its bottomless appetite - people ruled by Saturn are said to eat quite undiscriminatively and staying slender no matter how much they eat.

On the other hand metabolism is a "fiery" phenomenon, we burn calories... :???:

Good job of identifying some of the factors...

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I've got Moon in Taurus, Venus combust, and Mars in Pisces, and I agree with the folks who identified these factors. While I am not morbidly obese, at 5'7" and 210 lbs, I am never going to be thin.

I would think a debilitated Saturn would add to this further. Since I have a strong Saturn, I carry my weight well (meaning that people typically guess I weigh under 200 lbs, routinely underestimating 15 lbs or so, unless they're just being polite :P )
All I know is that if my birth chart was a horary, the answer would be "No".

My Blog: http://slushpileastrology.blogspot.com/

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Hi Papretis and Sunny Dawn
Yes I agree with you about Saturn. People with Saturn strong in the chart are disciplined and often hard on themselves.

Regarding Jupiter, Ptolemy says:
When Jupiter rules alone he produces increase in general, and, in particular, when the prediciton is concerned with men, he makes fame and prosperity, abundance, peaceful existence, the increase of the necessities of life, bodily and spiritual health, and, furtheromore, benefitsss and gifts from rulers, and the increase, greatness, and magnanimity of these latter; and in general he is the cause of happiness. With reference to dumb animals he causes a multitude and abundance of those that are usedful to men and the diminution and destruction of the opposite kind. He makes the condition of the air temperate and healthful, windy, moist and favourable to the growth of what the earth bears; he brings about the fortunate sailing of fleets, the moderate rise of rivers, abundance of crops, and everything similar.(Tetrabiblos II.8.
While the idea of increase and abundance is there, it seems to be characterised with moderation and not in unpleasant excess.
Last edited by Gem on Wed Sep 24, 2008 7:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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I think temperament is the key here. Melancholic types especially come to mind here. RC might be better off looking into this area than into individual planets/houses.
Interesting thread! I am certainly keen in putting the traditional rules to the test here on some real charts.

I have been studying Dorian Greebaum's book on temperament recently and she indicates the sanguine and phelgmatic types are those more likely to retain weight. Especially the latter.

Some traditional sources approximate each temperament to a planet as well as an element:

Sanguine (wet+ hot)-Air-Jupiter

Choleric-( dry +hot) Fire-Mars

Melancholic (dry +cold) -Earth-Saturn

Phlegmatic (wet +cold) -Water-Moon

The dry temperaments are less likely to retain water (weight). The wetter temparaments are supposed to retain water (weight) more.

However, traditional temperament analysis is more complex than the modern approach of just adding up planets in each element or focusing on isolated planets. Not all natal planets are equally important in traditional analysis of temperament/humour.

Moreover, planets could be drier or wetter depending on whether they rose before or after the Sun (oriental or occidental). Equally, the the four lunar quadrants were each tied to a different temperament. Thus you could have a Moon in Aries in a phlegmatic (watery) quadrant.

As I have rather a tendency to pile on pounds myself this subject is of personal interest. :???: I should point out I am not in the morbidly obese category yet. :D

I have Jupiter in Taurus rising in partile conjunction with the ascendant. It has some dignity through being in its own bound/term. It is occidental of the Sun and in sect (diurnal chart). It forms a close trine to the ASC Lord (Venus) + Mercury in Capricorn (both oriental of the Sun). Moon is in scorpio (phlegmatic), winter season ( phlegmatic), Moon in last quarter ( phlegmatic).

After doing a temperament analysis (Greenbaum method) I came out with tie between phlegmatic/melancholic preponderance. A slight nod to the phlegmatic though with the wet influence of Jupiter and Venus(oriental)

It seems I could be used to justify both a modern and traditional interpretation. :D

Rather than debating this theoretically though has anyone got any hard data to get our teeth into? The late John Candy (Actor) comes to mind. Is there any timed data for him?

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MarkC wrote: Rather than debating this theoretically though has anyone got any hard data to get our teeth into? The late John Candy (Actor) comes to mind. Is there any timed data for him?
I have one chart which talks about an obese chef. But nothing yet on the type of obesity we're talking of here. John Candy wouldn't qualify for this type of obesity. Momma Cass, was very very large and I believe her chart is available as well. (Will post it later) But I am trying to locate some charts on the type of people who are profiled on Discovery's TLC channel. They are up near 1000 pounds! This is not your run of the mill 'obese'.

Until we can locate one of those unusual charts, here is the "obese chef".

OBESE CHEF:

I don't have birth data on this chart. This man was described as obese with a distended stomach who's health finally failed due to the "enormous quantities of food consumed".

Noticeable right away is that Jupiter rules the sickness/diet/6th and is in Virgo, its detriment, conjoined with Saturn and opposing Mars.

Someone mentioned "moderation" in association with Jupiter. Jupiter is not about moderation ! Just the opposite. When not afflicted, he tends to be overly generous. But when it is afflicted, it injures by going so far overboard.

There is other testimony here for his weight problems but I won't ruin it if anyone wants to point out those other factors.

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