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The Temperament
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Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1380

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The I phase:
3,8373 Lowly educated people
3,05296 Suicides
1,86318 Bankers
1,614 Chemists
1,36029 Restaurateurs
1,12422 Astrologers
1,08242 Kidnapping victims
1,03629 Programmers
1,02647 Magazine/ newsletter writers
0,88091 People with excessive amount of sex partners
0,8549 Highly educated people
0,64165 Gay men
0,61614 Critics
0,58516 People in sex business
0,5657 Victims of violence
0,56168 Bigots
0,56094 Boxers / martial fighters
0,54535 Depressed people
0,53875 Publishers / editors
0,49987 Playwrights
0,49861 Song writers
0,48782 Ambitious personalities
0,47291 Polices
0,47158 Government employees


I do not share your enthusiastic use of groups and numbers!

The big problem here is that instead of the usual problem of comparing apples and oranges you've made yourself quite an exotic fruit salad.

First we need a clarification: By “Lowly educated people” do you mean poorly educated or undereducated people? I see that you later list “Highly educated people” in the same group, so I'm not sure just what we have here. We've been talking about temperament; more specifically the phlegmatic temperament as a match for the first of the four major phases of the Moon. Education levels are surely more heavily influenced by economic, sociological and demographic considerations than temperament.

Bankers, chemists, and [computer?] programmers are professions. But then we have “ambitious personalities” – now we're mixing personal characteristics with professions. Kidnapping victims and victims of violence? Do kidnappers really look for those who seem most phlegmatic? What does being on the receiving end of a crime have to do with temperament? Gay men? (Is that a profession?) Well, at least they and the crime victims have the protective company of boxers and "martial fighters". And our bankers get to hang out with “People with excessive amount of sex partners”. A perfect fit.

This is a mess of an argument! Shocked

Very Happy
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Papretis



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
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Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try to capture the general feeling... sorry, I should have remembered that statistics were just the wrong argument with you Smile .
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woodwater



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Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
Quote:
I had the ascendant almuten as Jupiter, (triplicity and term,) why the moon?


The most common way to determine almuten is to use the point system;

ASC is 19 Cancer 52 or the 20th degree of Cancer
Moon is domicile ruler = 5 points
Jupiter is exaltation ruler = 4 points
Mars is triplicity ruler in most systems = 3 points
Mercury is Term ruer =2 points
Mercury is Face ruler = 1 point

Moon has the most points. Moon is almuten. I think the terms I cited are Ptolemy's. The Egyptian terms has Jupiter as term ruler so if you use those, he gets two points and then is almuten as his exaltation plus terms gives him 6 points to the Moon's 5. So the final result depends on whose terms the astrologer uses. It doesn't significantly change Greenbaum's result and has no effect at all on Frawley's. With Greenbaum's system it would give Mitchell some fire.


Quote:
It's interesting to me how you use the word 'desire' here. (I link this word to Venus, here conjunct Neptune so a tendency to lose herself in relationships and this will engender more compassion, sensitivity and passivity, Reinforcing the Piscean mutable watery meandering quality of this chart). In terms of type she would be seen as someone for whom her 'feelings' are running the show, the show being her life.


I'm referring to the desire nature that is the driving force in the phlegmatic temperament. The desire for instant gratification is one way to look at it. The desire for pleasure is another. Why do today what can be put off until tomorrow? The native is driven to submit to his or her desires and requires outside help directing the life, i.e. usually a strong malefic. Otherwise the ever changing desires ruin the native. Think of water on a table. Try to direct it with your hands. You can't.

What the desires are will vary from native to native, but more often than not it will be a desire of the moment or the simple wish to "feel good." "The sixties aphorism, "If it feels good do it," is pure phlegm. This is what turns people into alcoholics or drug addicts. Call it an escape if you will, but they escape into pleasureable feelings. The examples I cited of Mitchell's early life are an attempt to escape from responsibility. The fact that the father of her child may be equally irresponsible is irrelevant to this discussion. She could have sucked it up. She married a man who promised to raise the child and then she gave the child away. I don't know for sure but I'd wager a good dinner that she saw the child as an impediment to her career or just prevented the good times. She submitted to her desires. That Moon on the MC ruling the ASC is powerful. Moon rules the phlegmatic temperament

Suicide is usually a selfish act. She lost a lover. Oh that's unique. Her desires couldn't be met so she tried to end it all. Again this is how the phlegmatic would think. Not all of them mind you, and perhaps she straightened her life out, but these are examples of the desire nature ruling the life. I tried to find other things in her life online, but all I found were lists of popular songs and awards won, so I couldn't offer other examples.

Aspects are higher up the chain. They are finishing touches. Temperament is basic. It can be controlled to a certain point, but it is awfully difficult to out and out change it.


Quote:
She initially wanted to go to Art school but her mother discouraged her saying she wouldn’t stick at it!


Her mother was speaking from experience with her. And that experience sounds like at least an early phlegmatic life. Not sticking to things is part of phlegmatic behavior, but cholerics do that too, albeit for different reasons.

Quote:
Which of the temperaments relates to writing skills or did they not cover this?


Sanguine, but again, creative writing skills (Mercury and Venus) are more towards the finishing touches, not the foundation. Temperament is broad brush stuff. It is not fine finish work.

Choleric = warrior or athlete.
Melancholic = the farmer
Sanguine = the scholar
Phlegmatic = the slave (slave to the desires; can't put off gratification)

No one exhibits only the dominant temperament and nothing else. But the dominant temperament is the one that determines how the other stuff will manifest. A phlegmatic with writing skills might write music or romance novels because they make him feel good. A sanguine with writing skills might become a serious novelist or scholar. A choleric with writing skills will tear up a lot of paper. The phlegmatic with writing skills is likely to rush off to paint and abandon the writing for the pursuit of a new pleasure. A phlegmatic with few or no salable skills will end up like Frawley's "anonymous dead junkie." When the native is very successful he or she can get away with flitting about, whereas if she was responsible to support that child, and she flitted about without the enormous bank account, there would be serious problems. Even if she was wealthy and then ignored the child to pursue her pleasures there would be problems, as well. The phlegmatic temperament is the most difficult of all.

Tom

hi Tom
using Frawleys method would i still be Phlegmatic/sanguine, like in Greenbaum`s?


gemini rising: sanguine 2
rising ruler mercury in aquarius :sanguine 2
Moon pisces: phlegmatic 2
ruler Neptune in Scorpio: phlegmatic 1
second ruler Jupiter in Aquarius : sanguine 1
Sun capricorn: melancholic 1
venua-mars caricorn : melancholic 1+1=2
Saturn aquarius: sanguine 1
How do i calculate almuten?
i know that on 6 january it was new moon

born 9 jan 1962 at 14.15


thanks
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Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woodwater,

We're trying to have a general discussion about temperament but we're ending up with a collection of posts about you. Mad

Kirk
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Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1380

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sari,

With a fair dash of Virgo in me I do appreciate well-turned statistics from time to time.


Quote:
But if Ptolemy called the New Moon as "cold" and the First Quarter as "wet", then it would be fair to say that the phase between 0 and 90 degrees is "cold, increasingly wet".

To be honest, I'm still struggling with this. Hot and wet for phase 1 leading to hot and dry for phase 2 does seem odd.

I just remembered the thread 'Moon Phases and Temperament'. I think I'll spend some time there – and especially spend some time with good sources.
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3722&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0.

.....................................................................
Edited to add:

If I may quote Andrew from his Sept 19th, 2008 post in the thread mentioned above:
Quote:
Actually, to quote Dorian Greenbaum (Temperament, p. 81):
Quote:
While Ptolemy talks about increasing wetness between New Moon and First Quarter, he specifically does not say that the New Moon is wet; it is at the Emergence phase that wet begins to increase. Therefore, as Robert Hand points out in his note in the Schmidt translation of the Tetrabiblos, the New Moon must be cold, not wet.

If I may continue quoting from Ms. Greenbaum on page 81:
Quote:
Though Ptolemy characterizes the New Moon as cold, that does not necessarily mean that he considers the first of the waxing quarters of the Moon's cycle to be only cold and wet. As the Moon moves through the waxing quarters of the cycle it becomes increasingly wet, and then increasingly hot, which fits with Ptolemy's characterization of the seasons, and planetary phases as well; ...

Regarding the table on page 19 of the Greenbaum book that shows Ptolemy only assigning one quality rather than a blend of two qualities to each of the 4 Moon phases, here's another quote from Andrew from the same thread:
Quote:
As Hand states in his note to the Tetrabiblos, Book I, p. 19:
Quote:
We have here not four boxes containing qualities but four phases in the continuous ebb and flow of the four qualities.

Also regarding the table in Greenbaum's book, she notes: "After Table by Robert Hand". So here we see that the movement, progression is implied and understood.


There seems to be a very large section of the Greenbaum book containing relevant material that I just never got around to reading. Embarassed ... Idea It might be a good idea...
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Billy



Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Posts: 25

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Papretis,

quote]Billy,

The influence of the signs comes from several things of which only one is the element. The Air signs are more or less ruled by Earth planets: Gemini is ruled by Mercury which most ancient authors see as cold and dry; Aquarius is ruled by Saturn, definitely a cold and dry planet; and Libra is ruled by Venus but its exaltation ruler is Saturn. Also the elementary rulers of Air are Saturn (the day ruler), Mercury (the night ruler) and Jupiter (the participating ruler). So there's a lot of Mercurian/Saturnine influence in the Air signs, but that doesn't make Air less hot and moist as an element. The temperament takes both signs and their rulers into consideration.

Someone noted that one thing between traditional and modern astrology is that the signs need not to have similarity with their rulers. The actual influence comes from the combinations. So, if you see cool detachment in Air signs, you may be looking at their rulers, not the signs itself. If you have a planet in a sign and the ruler of the sign is aspecting that planet, it definitely gets the nature of the ruler. It's not simple but requires looking at what happens in a chart: whether there's receptions or not, etc.[/quote]


Through a modern lens ‘detachment’ is seen as related to Air as they are seen as the ‘thinking’ signs. When you are thinking you aren’t ‘feeling’. By definition it’s more removed, controlled and in a sense distant. We are manipulating information, problem solving, and so on.

I don’t see the ‘Thinking’ type as negating an association with the Sanguine temperament if this is seen as PLAYFUL, EASY GOING, SOCIABLE, CAREFREE, HOPEFUL, CONTENTED. I think you can be all these things when you are a ‘Thinker’ or more specifically ‘thinking’. The problem, as I see it, is how these words (other than contented) can be associated with 2 of the fire signs.

For example:
Hopeful gets me thinking of Sagittarius (Jupiter).
Playful gets me thinking of Leo, (Mercury and perhaps the Sun).

You mention Jupiter as a (participatory ruler) which is perhaps where Sanguine gets its Warm/Fire from? Although Jupiter is also in detriment in Gemini, Mars in detriment in Libra and sun in its fall, plus the Sun is detriment in Aquarius! So the fire planets aren’t seen as all that comfortable with these Air signs in some ways.

For me all these words are too vague and can be loosely associated with more than one sign/element. I wouldn’t use any of them, other than hopeful in relation to Sagittarius and perhaps sociable in relation to Libra.

But I take your point about how the rulers and signs have merged today, and if this wasn’t the case before then this is a shift. I know that when I think of Gemini I am also thinking of Mercury. Specifically here in relation to part of Mercury's function being the gathering of information. Also today we have Uranus, seen as the ruler or co-ruler of Aquarius, and this is a very detached/thinking planet which will shift the Air emphasis in this direction

I think it would be a useful exercise for a traditional and modern astrologer to compare 10 keywords for each planet and sign to see how far these definitions have shifted by 2008.
I really don’t see how type and temperament can be compared usefully until there’s more clarity as regards the ‘meanings’ of the symbols then and now.
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margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
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Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirk wrote:
Sari,

Quote:
But if Ptolemy called the New Moon as "cold" and the First Quarter as "wet", then it would be fair to say that the phase between 0 and 90 degrees is "cold, increasingly wet".

To be honest, I'm still struggling with this. Hot and wet for phase 1 leading to hot and dry for phase 2 does seem odd.


I think there should be some discrepancy because following Ptolemy, Moon is like other planets: they are cold with the Sun and then they increase in moisture when they leave the conjunction, and so on.
But for quadrants, Ascendant is the most wet point of the chart, not the the coldest.

But in the same time the idea to associate quadrants with seasons and with Moon phases is older than Ptolemy.

Generally, as Greenbaum, I give just a quality to the Moon rather than two, for example Moon leaving the synod with Sun is moist for me, as whatever other planet, Moon arriving to the opposition is warming and so on...
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Papretis



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
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Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gjiada wrote:
But for quadrants, Ascendant is the most wet point of the chart, not the the coldest.

Basically it's about whether we associate the New Moon with sunrise (Sun conjoining Ascendant) and the vernal equinox; or with midnight (Sun conjoining IC) and the winter solstice. I prefer the latter.
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margherita



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Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Papretis wrote:
Basically it's about whether we associate the New Moon with sunrise (Sun conjoining Ascendant) and the vernal equinox; or with midnight (Sun conjoining IC) and the winter solstice. I prefer the latter.


Hello,
It's just I know quite well one of the founders of CieloeTerra (they follow very stricly Ptolemy) and I have a lot of notes from his lessons so it's very easy for me to know which way Giuseppe Bezza reads Ptolemy.

As for me I don't like to follow just one author, I like to be freer.
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Angela



Joined: 04 Dec 2008
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Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, recently I've been calculating the temperaments for people I know using Dorian Greenbaum's technique (I don't have the book but followed the method as found in the archives here) and I was really surprised to find that the people I am/have been closest to came out to have the same element dominating, which happens to be choleric. Regarding this, I'm wondering if/how I would be able to see through my chart why it happens that they (significant others and even my best friend) have the same main temperament? My main temperament came out to be sanguine with Dorian Greenbaum's method. Have you noticed this too in your personal relationships that you attract a certain temperament as well?
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Tom
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Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is an interesting question and the answer isn't going to be so simple as, melancholic types are attracted to sanguine types because they are opposites. That might be true at times, but not always.

The theory goes that that people are attracted to those characteristics that compliment their own. Too much similarity is boring. Too little has nothing in common so that neither would understand the other. Their needs to be a balance. Temperament can give us the basis of that balance. I am more choleric than the other types, but not aggressively choleric like a true warrior type. I have a decent amount of phlegm My wife is an even split of sanguine and melancholic (according to Greenbaum). She has no phlegm. So the phlegm in my temperament balances her lack of and her choler sanguine and my choler get along fine. I have no earth in my chart so she balances me that way.

There are other ways to balance, too. Dorian points out on page 93 that Cholerics get along with sanguines. "Happy to help with your project" she notes, but if the project includes invading a neighboring country or town, a sanguine might be less than eager to help. She notes that cholerics can't stand melancholics, but in my case my wife isn't too negative, her sanguine side sees to that.

I think this method of looking for the proper balance is probably more likely to produce positive results than synastry. If we aren't compatible at the most basic level the relative positions of our Mars and Venus isn't going to overcome that.

Tom
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Angela



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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tom, thanks for sharing this. The two of you really balance each other out nicely.
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Wolfie



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Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 4:56 pm    Post subject: i'm a strong phlegmatic... Reply with quote

I'm a strong phlegmatic. Moon in Cancer ASC; Sun in Pisces. I agree about the desire and instant gratification thing. for me it's food/binging. luckily, saturn in my natal chart is high dignified in aquarius so it's probably responsible for me also being hard working, disciplined (at my day job, at least).

Here's my data if someone wants to add their input:

female, born feb 22, 1964 @ 12:31pm Ottawa, Ontario CANADA.

if you want to delineate it, great, and in return, I'll answer any questions anyone has about my life which might help "prove" how a primarily phlegmatic person operates.
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Lazarus



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Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi folks I am a bit late to this one and did not read the whole thing so forgive me if I am touching on something that was already brought up. I first came into contact with temperament analysis through Frawley but I never had much luck applying his methods. After seeing how Zoller approached it in his DMA course I found that it was a much simpler thing to determine, especially when considering the almuten of the Asc (although I do this slightly differently than Zoller recommends in his course). Now I am taking Brennan's course in Hellenistic astrology and he brings up early on that the Stoic model of elements and qualities is slightly different than the aristotelian model that we've all come to know and love. It seems the Stoics assigned Hot to Fire, Cold to Air, Dry to Earth, and Moist to Water. This makes more sense to me philosophically and I have been experimenting with it a little and thus far I like it better because I don't think the four humors fit correspond exactly with the four elements, especially since I have studied some Ayurveda. In that system Vata is the dosha that corresponds to the humor called Melancholy in the Greek system and both are considered Cold and Dry, BUT, Vata is a mixture of Air and Ether, not at all of earth! So for me the humors are best kept separate from the 4 elements. Furthermore why should Hot/Dry be opposed by Hot/Moist and Cold/Dry be opposed by Cold/Moist when the humors themselves are not balanced/arranged in this manner?

Using this model the planets give us the primary aspects of the temperament while the signs just give us a background. The signs modify the testimony given by the planets. I also look at Mercury and the Moon as taking on the qualities of the planet most closely in aspect and if there is none or the Moon is stronger than the planets aspecting then it gives a strong phlegmatic effect. I don't agree that Mercury is cold/dry by nature. I think he represents the ether, the 5th element within the context of temperament. If you do it this way then Jupiter/Saturn oppose one another as Sanguine vs Melancholic, Sun/Mars oppose Moon/Venus as Choleric vs Phlegmatic. I like this symmetry quite a bit and it makes a good amount of sense and is useful in practice. I also consider the lord of the rising sign, with regard to temperament, to take on a slightly more passive quality so that the planet most closely in aspect modifies the temperament rather than the other way around.
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