Question on the Elements?

1
Greetings, I was discussing this with my astrological friend, Dave, and we came to a conclusion that we need some input from others.
Here is the dilemma.
Dave and I have noted over the years that of the 4 elements found in the Zodiac there is a standard accepted explanation for all but the Air Signs.
Let me illustrate.
The Fire signs have been described thus. Aries rules Electrical Fire, Leo rules Fire by Combustion and Sagittarius rules Fire by Friction.
The Water signs have been described thus. Cancer rules the Oceans, Scorpio the Swamps and Tide pools and Pisces the Rivers and Streams.
[Although Dave has another theory on this that is Runic in nature. As I posted elsewhere in the Forum]
The Earth Signs have been described thus. Taurus rule the Plains, Pastures and Valleys, Virgo rules the Caves and Capricorn the Mountains.
Now the QUESTION IS what about the Air signs? Dave and I have never seen any explanation for them other than an obscure reference they can be applied to the 3 stages of Breath...I believe we both ran across this in an article on Prana Yoga.
Libra, of course would be naturally assumed to be the in-between inhalation and exhalation. Thus that leaves Aquarius and Gemini for the other 2 stages of breath. So, which is which?
Dave seems to think Aquarius is the Inhalation and Gemini the Exhalation.
Does anyone care to give some light on this?
Or even take a 'Stab At It' with an educated guess?
All suggestions and input will be welcome and appreciated.
Thanks.
Keep a smile on your face and a song in your heart.

2
Actually I've only heard the air signs referenced as

Libra - intellectual - Judgemental - weighing both sides of arguement
Gemini - the salesman - the windbag - the creative speaker(Politicians, singers and Actors)
Aquarius - Scientific - new age - radical thought - dreamer

I'm not certain how that relates to air, but until you mentioned it I hadn't realized that I hadn't heard any such explanation either.

with that in mind if it was related to breath I'd say Gemini is more related to breathing out, than Aquarius. ;-)

if related to wind, north of the equator you have the Chinook in Spring, a warm west wind, and Monsoons and tropical storms in Fall (tends to be east winds, and the hard winter storms in late january and February, which tend to be north winds, so you might consider them that way, though that leaves out Southern winds. not to mention I'm sure they are different elsewhere.

Though another way to look at it might be Gemini, Big Winds, Libra calm and Aquarius a fair wind.

thank you for an interesting topic to look into, I hope someone has more interesting answers.

Granny

3
Dave and I have noted over the years that of the 4 elements found in the Zodiac there is a standard accepted explanation for all but the Air Signs.
Let me illustrate.
The Fire signs have been described thus. Aries rules Electrical Fire, Leo rules Fire by Combustion and Sagittarius rules Fire by Friction.
The Water signs have been described thus. Cancer rules the Oceans, Scorpio the Swamps and Tide pools and Pisces the Rivers and Streams.
...

The Earth Signs have been described thus. Taurus rule the Plains, Pastures and Valleys, Virgo rules the Caves and Capricorn the Mountains.
Now the QUESTION IS what about the Air signs?
You stated there is ?a standard accepted explanation for all but the Air Signs?. In saying that you're limiting each sign and choosing unrelated categories for the various elements to represent. For example, for Fire you talked about different kinds of fire, but for Water and Earth you talked about places, locations. For Air you've moved on to a bodily function. What are you looking for? Different phases of the breath? Different kinds of communication? Different kinds of social organization? Different kinds of locations? These are the sorts of things we could assign to each of the Air signs. You stated that mountains are (standardly accepted as) assigned to Capricorn, but the Air signs are typically assigned to high places. Here are some places and locations assigned to Gemini:

Al-Biruni, [11th Century], The Book of Instruction in the Elements of the Art of Astrology: Mountains, hills, mounds, hunting-grounds, riversides, resorts of acrobats and gamblers and musicians, king's palaces.

Ibn-Ezra [12th Century], The Book of Wisdom: All steep and tall mountains, and the places of bird hunters, and [places of] dice players, and of musicians.

Manly P. Hall [20th Century], Astrological Keywords: Depots, boxes, studies, libraries, wainscots, granaries, mountains, aeroplanes, weather machinery, storehouses for corn, high positions generally.

Here's Libra:

Al-Biruni: Small mosques and places of worship, castles, cultivation, palm-groves, observatories, plains, orchards, tops of mountains which are cultivated.

Ibn-Ezra: All cultivated [places] on top of mountains; all soils that are not firm; all high places; the places of market and merchandise.

Hall: The boudoir or private chamber, attics, mountain tops and the sides of hills, forests, plains, rocky ground.

Aquarius is also given high places, but additionally gets low or underground places such as mines and quarries, probably due to its traditional rulership by Saturn. You mentioned Virgo for caves, but I'm guessing those are signified by Capricorn or Aquarius instead. At this point I favor Capricorn. In the list of places signified by signs and planets that I have created from a few sources no sign is given caves, but I do have them assigned to Saturn by Ibn-Ezra and William Lilly. Does anyone have more info on this? Would there be a difference between a cave high up in a mountainside and one deep in the earth entered by falling into the hole you're about to step in? Maybe Aquarius for the mountain cave and Capricorn for the hole in the ground ... or perhaps the reverse :?:

What you gave for water is a little different from the traditional lists, which are more complex. For example, for Cancer Lilly wrote ?The sea, great rivers, navigational waters; but in the inland countries it notes places near rivers, brooks, springs, wells, cellars in houses, wash-houses, marsh grounds, ditches with rushes, sedges, sea banks, trenches, cisterns? [Christian Astrology, p. 95]. So you see, the issue is more complicated than you may have thought.

I almost forgot: Ages ago I read that Gemini is inhalation and Sagittarius is exhalation. That uses a Mercury and Jupiter ruled sign polarity. I don't do how widely accepted the idea is, but it's interesting that for centuries Jupiter has been associated with the lungs and lung disease .
Last edited by ### on Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

Question on Elements

4
skippy sanchez,

When you think AIR - think relating, socialising, friends.

Gemini - Siblings.

Libra - Partners

Aquarius - Friends, Groups.

The Water Element - think emotions.

Cancer - Pools and Ponds.

Scorpio - dark and murky pools

Pisces - the Oceans.

SF

5
Libra, of course would be naturally assumed to be the in-between inhalation and exhalation. Thus that leaves Aquarius and Gemini for the other 2 stages of breath. So, which is which?
Dave seems to think Aquarius is the Inhalation and Gemini the Exhalation.
That makes Libra rather useless and ineffective in that it's not the inhalation or the exhalation, but simply a moment between. We may think that's very Libran and balanced, but Libra is the Cardinal Air sign ? and Cardinal signs involve initiating action.

6
Thank you Kirk and Julie.
But don't the 'Triplicities of Action" move with the procession?
For example: in those times when Leo was the sign of the Spring Equinox" wasn't it then a "Cardinal Sign"?
Admittedly, Dave has been on a "quest" to determine what knowledge has become muddled or lost through the ages.
Odd that all air sign assignation is somehow represented by "High Places" from the sources you quote.
I posted another thread in the Phil. & Science section on some theories He and I have worked on that have apparently led to a 'Runic Explanation', for one example.
The assignations of the elements I gave are the most widely given here in the States. It's just that there seem to be little on the 'Air Signs' other than what I mentioned from our source which is Vedic...and unfortunately neither Dave or I came remember exactly where or when We came across that. It wasn't important to us at the time.
Dave and I have come to a concurred agreement, that Gemini would seem to [also] govern the lungs. After all there are TWO of them in each of us and the lungs do deal with Air. .
It's the same with the Sabian Symbols which Dave and I are so enamoured with. They are known to have been respected and utilized in the ancient times which Dave and I feel were times of superior Astrological knowledge compared to the 'Middle Ages' which are the eras of the sources you quote. Now, that is only OUR current opinion.
I was told this Forum is rather "Traditional along certain lines".
I respect that and am not trying to disturb anyones beliefs, but gain insight and knowledge in assisting our own.
Most of the 'Coffee Table Astrology Books' make mention of the assignation of those rulerships to the elements as I quoted above in my opening post. It's just that none of them make mention of the Air signs. The more serious modern studies of Astrology don't concern themselves with these notions as they seem to be considered 'Trivial'. The assignation of Gemstones to Sign is another example of this.
I believe sometimes we can overthink these things and need to return to simple sources, legends, myths, old wives tales etc. to find the clues we need to.
Take how many different titles are give the same formula for certain Arabic Parts there are.
For example Dave has proven to me that the Parts should be thought of in "Spiritual Terms' more than the mundane. For example the Part of Inheritance & Legacy. Some sources don't include 'Legacy". All of them seem to suggest that it deals with actual inheritance of 'Goods'...such as your 'Great Aunt' dies and leaves you her estate.
Dave's Part of Inheritance and Legacy is the 19th degree of Pisces...the Sabian Symbol for which is [from Rudhyar] "A Master Instructs His Disciple". Curious, given that that is what he [Dave] claims was Jesus' Part of Fortune. [Note: Dave has written a book on the 'Birth Chart of Jesus'and was 'On the Case' before he ever determined that Part for himself...curious, wouldn't you say?]
Thanks to all of you for allowing us to be here and get your input on some Astrological matters. Again We mean no disrespect nor are we on some sort of mission to disturb anyones beliefs...with the possible exception of Daves theory on the true birth date and time of Jesus...but I believe most of you would agree THAT DOES need to be determined and if it in fact has, then some beliefs will be decimated... both unfortunately and fortunately.
Keep a smile on your face and a song in your heart.

7
granny_skot wrote:Actually I've only heard the air signs referenced as

Libra - intellectual - Judgemental - weighing both sides of arguement
Gemini - the salesman - the windbag - the creative speaker(Politicians, singers and Actors)
Aquarius - Scientific - new age - radical thought - dreamer

I'm not certain how that relates to air, but until you mentioned it I hadn't realized that I hadn't heard any such explanation either.

with that in mind if it was related to breath I'd say Gemini is more related to breathing out, than Aquarius. ;-)

if related to wind, north of the equator you have the Chinook in Spring, a warm west wind, and Monsoons and tropical storms in Fall (tends to be east winds, and the hard winter storms in late january and February, which tend to be north winds, so you might consider them that way, though that leaves out Southern winds. not to mention I'm sure they are different elsewhere.

Though another way to look at it might be Gemini, Big Winds, Libra calm and Aquarius a fair wind.

thank you for an interesting topic to look into, I hope someone has more interesting answers.

Granny
Thank you Granny for this observation.
Dave and I both got a little lift from your mention of Gemini = Salesmen...as salesmen rarely TAKE a breath [inhalation] and Thinkers and Dreamers [r.e. your ref. to Aquarius] are known to do the opposite...that is 'Take a breath"...which led us both to say "Well, at the least we've got SOME support for our reasoning...tha Gemini is Exhalation and Aquarius is Inhalation.
Regards, Skippy & Dave.
Keep a smile on your face and a song in your heart.

8
Greetings,

A couple of notes,
1. Kirk, A thought... which way will libra go? ;-) that moment between is the moment of Action! well my thought anyway, why I think of it as the Calm before the storm.

2. Skippy, I started with Modern Astrology and morphed to Traditional because I got more reliable results with it. for instance I still use outer planets a plenty, I just dont assign them rulerships. But I haven't really studiesd Sabian symbology... its on the to do list.

I have another thought about Air signs. Possibly difficult to assign them Types of air because air is a nebulous thing to humans. A mountain or water or fire we can see touch etc... what if in reference to air we thought of it instead as smells?

Libra - frankensense and Myrh (traditional justice type scents)
Gemini - nagchampa - reminds me of bazaars so was sales related
Aquarius - sea air - coffee - tea scents - smells for dreamers and tinkerers... Sage for the Sage?

I say smells because it is something we can far more relate to. though it is still something not quite touchable...this is just a thought.

Granny

9
Greetings Granny. As I posted in the Phil. & Science a possible 'Runic' explanation of the Zodiac would indicate Aquar. as being 'Air above Earth', Gemini > 'Air on the Earth' and Libra > 'Air below the Earth'...The other Elements in the niches [plains, mountains and caves for example] described above work with this theory...it's just that this 'Air' thing probably will too if we can find the original source for the other information and find what was said about them or attributed to them from that source.
Keep a smile on your face and a song in your heart.

10
Various and sundry points I want to make:
But don't the 'Triplicities of Action" move with the procession?
For example: in those times when Leo was the sign of the Spring Equinox" wasn't it then a "Cardinal Sign"?
The tropical zodiac doesn't need to account for precession, but precession does affect the sidereal zodiac. Most western astrologers by far use the tropical zodiac. I don't know much about sidereal astrology, but I've never heard of signs changing mode because it has precessed into the number one spot. At some point the zodiacal system we know was developed ? much, much later than when Leo could have been the spring equinox sign ? and the signs acquired their meanings. Astrology as we know it was developed when Aries was the sidereal spring equinox sign.

Odd that all air sign assignation is somehow represented by "High Places" from the sources you quote.
Why should it be odd? Fire and air are the most rarefied of the traditional 4 elements. I think pretty much everyone would agree that they both carry a sense of rising and 'up'.

It's the same with the Sabian Symbols which Dave and I are so enamoured with. They are known to have been respected and utilized in the ancient times which Dave and I feel were times of superior Astrological knowledge compared to the 'Middle Ages' which are the eras of the sources you quote. Now, that is only OUR current opinion.
An opinion you may retain or change after studying the development, philosophy and symbolism of astrology implied in the 2 previous quotes and replies.

Most of the 'Coffee Table Astrology Books' make mention of the assignation of those rulerships to the elements as I quoted above in my opening post. It's just that none of them make mention of the Air signs.
Books that omit 3 of the signs wouldn't seem to be very good books. It looks like you've been reading the wrong ones. Stay away from coffee tables.

The more serious modern studies of Astrology don't concern themselves with these notions as they seem to be considered 'Trivial'. The assignation of Gemstones to Sign is another example of this.
There is very serious contemporary work being done in the area of traditional astrology and these ?notions? are exactly what is studied and understood as at the heart of astrology.

I believe sometimes we can overthink these things and need to return to simple sources, legends, myths, old wives tales etc. to find the clues we need to.

It's odd you should write that. Everything you've posted so far seems to be based on what Dave has thought up, Dave's theories. Now you've stated the opposite of what you've been posting.

For example Dave has proven to me that the Parts should be thought of in "Spiritual Terms' more than the mundane.
This is a good example of taking astrology out of the world and using it as a toy for the mind.

We can load astrology with all sorts of 'shoulds', but the historical fact is that people wanted help and answers with the issues of their daily lives. Astrology was developed to help them put food on the table, raise their kids, and acquire more goats than their neighbor.

Dave's Part of Inheritance and Legacy is the 19th degree of Pisces...the Sabian Symbol for which is [from Rudhyar] "A Master Instructs His Disciple". Curious, given that that is what he [Dave] claims was Jesus' Part of Fortune. [Note: Dave has written a book on the 'Birth Chart of Jesus'and was 'On the Case' before he ever determined that Part for himself...curious, wouldn't you say?]
I wouldn't call it curious.

11
I don't see why the breathing process should be associated with any sign. The out-breath is going outwards, externalising, reaching forwards, while the in-breath reapresents retreating, going inwards, taking stock, internalising. Breathing reflects the original principle of creation: active/passive and ying/yang and each planet rules(except the King and Queen) masculine/feminine signs.

12
Gem, well I'm one of those chaps that feel everything that is or was can be attributed to the Zodiac in one way or another.
As I said, I did read somewhere of this association of breath to the Air Signs...I just can't remember where, as it was so long ago.
Keep a smile on your face and a song in your heart.