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A case of kidnapping
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Pete



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 301
Location: Kinnelon, New Jersey, USA

Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:57 am    Post subject: A case of kidnapping Reply with quote

Hi all,
today I received a phone call from a friend of mine in Pakistan. She was
very upset and proceeded to tell me that over the course of the past weekend her niece's husband disappeared after his regular visit to the gym. When he didn't return home after a few hours they called the police who eventually found his abandoned car. There was no sign of him. On Sunday they received a phone call from an anonymous source claiming to be holding the missing man and demanding a hefty ransom for his safe release. My friend's family asked for a little time to raise the money and the kidnapper said he would call them again, either on Tuesday or
Wednesday - my friend isn't sure. The question she asked me was:

"Is he safe and will he be safely returned within the next 2 weeks?"

November 24th 2008
4.20pm EST
Kinnelon, New Jersey, USA
41* N 00' 74* W 22'

Asc: 00.45 Gemini, MC: 7*25 Aquarius; MO = 1*46' Scorpio.

Right away we see two classical Considerations in force: an early ascendant and the Moon in the via combusta. These signals suggest caution, in that first, the question is premature; not enough information is available yet to deliver a sound judgement, and second the course of events (Moon) is likely to take sudden, unexpected and possibly volatile turns. This comes as no surprise, given the situation.
So where is the man? Is he safe? He is shown by Mercury, ruler of the 1st house, because he is the husband of the querent's sister's daughter. The sister is the 3rd house, her daughter is the 7th (5th from 3rd), so her husband is the 7th from the 7th - iow the 1st.
Mercury here is in detriment in the 7th of open enemies and tightly combust - a perfect symbolic picture of a man in deep discomfort and in great fear due to being held captive. The Sun rules the 4th and this gives me an image of underground, somewhere deep below the earth. Both Mercury and the Sun are received by Jupiter, which rules the 11th and is placed in Capricorn in the 9th, suggesting that the kidnap was organised by a conservative religious group.
Right now I judge that the man is very uncomfortable - possibly hurt - but still alive. The ruler of the 8th receives him and is therefore inclined to spare his life. Mercury is moving into Cazimi, and from there
into combustion again but this time moving away from the Sun but towards a conjunction with Mars. I'm just not sure how to interpret this. What can the upcoming Cazimi mean? That he somehow undergoes some kind of purging, purifying experience at the hands of his captors before moving out of captivity when Mercury reaches 11*28' of Sag'? Mars rules the 12th house so this might indicate some kind of further captivity. That said, the antiscion degree of Jupiter -ruling the 7th (wife) and 11th (freedom) is 9*02' Sag', so does this suggest that he will be returned to his wife in a time unit of 7, albeit via covert, secret means?

This is an extremely sensitive, not to say desperate situation and naturally I do not want to frighten the querent any more than she is already, neither do I want to put out any false optimism. She will be calling me again tomorrow (Tuesday) at 2pm EST so I'd be very grateful for any comments and advice received before then.
Thanks in advance,

Pete
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spirlhelix



Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, Pete

I wish I had more time to look at this chart before I have to leave for work, to give it a more thorough analysis. Please excuse me if my remarks seem abrupt due to short time frames.

My first observation is that the ascendant is on the fixed star cluster, the Pleiades--the Weeping Sisters. Of course, reading the chart with caution, if you choose to look at it this way, the ascendant describes the situation quite clearly, since there are sisters acting as the querent in this traumatic setting.

I have often found that stars or cusps on zero degrees are very volatile, as though they have not settled on either 30 degrees Taurus or the next sign, Gemini (zero is a relatively new mathematical concept, having only come into widespread use in the 1600s). Here is a link if you would like more information on the history of zero. . . to look over at your leisure later, when this urgent astrological question has been laid to rest!

http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/HistTopics/Zero.html

Astrologers before the 1600s would have read this ascendant as 30 Taurus. You might want to consider what that would mean to the interpretation of the chart. Not too early to read, but rather too late. The Lady of the Ascendant now occupies the eighth, not the seventh house.
That does of course describe the situation; the picture of captivity is stronger when we have the significator in the eighth house.

That one detail makes for a shifting picture. No wonder we have this consideration about charts of low or high degrees.

A cazimi that has not happened yet is not a cazimi, but a combustion.
If Mercury does not fall within those critical 15 minutes on the chart of the moment of the question, we cannot look forward to any real benefit from cazimi in the future. The Sun in this chart rules the fourth house--the grave. The quesited combust the sun is one sign of death. You would want to see three signs of death on the chart before you gave a definitive "no" as a response to the question. As for any missing person chart, check Lilly for signs of death.

Since my time is limited, I will suggest you have a look at Christian Astrology. You will find Lilly has a similar question in his material on the twelfth house. "A Lady of her husband imprisoned, when he should be delivered?"

The wife's significator is the same as the captor's (both are indicated by the seventh house); therefore you will need to interpret the antiscion cast by Jupiter with caution.

Finally, the Moon in the Via Combusta makes action on the chart still more difficult to predict.

In a few words, the quesited is in bad shape. Find out if there are specific signs of his return on the chart per Lilly's twelfth house material. Check Lilly on the eighth house for signs of death to make sure of his condition.

Best wishes!

Pam
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Pete



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 301
Location: Kinnelon, New Jersey, USA

Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Pam,

Quote:
My first observation is that the ascendant is on the fixed star cluster, the Pleiades--the Weeping Sisters. Of course, reading the chart with caution, if you choose to look at it this way, the ascendant describes the situation quite clearly, since there are sisters acting as the querent in this traumatic setting.


Yes you're quite right, I didn't spot the Pleiades rising but it describes things very well. I'm a student of Bernadette Brady and therefore I tend to think in terms of parans rather than longitudinal position.

Quote:
Astrologers before the 1600s would have read this ascendant as 30 Taurus. You might want to consider what that would mean to the interpretation of the chart. Not too early to read, but rather too late. The Lady of the Ascendant now occupies the eighth, not the seventh house.
That does of course describe the situation; the picture of captivity is stronger when we have the significator in the eighth house.


That's an interesting observation and thanks for the link, I'll read it when I get a moment. I don't think I've ever come across this idea before and if it does indeed have any merit then we're going to have to re-think our ideas about sign boundaries. However I've just taken a quick look in C.A. and found four charts where Lilly annotates zero degrees quite clearly. These are on page 238 - "Will The Querent Ever Have Children?" ( Sun), page 392 - "A Dog Missing" ( Jupiter), page 397 - "Fish Stolen" (6th/12th cusp), and page 473 "The Time Robert, Earl of Essex, sets forth into the West" (Moon). The earliest of these charts is dated June 1635 and decidedly shows that Lilly recognised and used the value of zero degrees in his work at that time. I believe that if Lilly had been presented with this chart he would have placed 0* Gemini at the ascendant.

Quote:
A cazimi that has not happened yet is not a cazimi, but a combustion.
If Mercury does not fall within those critical 15 minutes on the chart of the moment of the question, we cannot look forward to any real benefit from cazimi in the future.


I wonder if that is strictly true? Part of the question was "will he return safely in 2 weeks?" so surely we must look at what is going to happen to that Mercury, not just see it as a static object. Right now it is 27' of arc from the Sun and *moving closer*. Eventually it will reach cazimi and then start to move away from combustion, conjoin Mars then leave combustion and enter the milder state of under the beams. This movement of Mercury (the quesited) is part of the flow of events I believe, in just the same way as the applications of the Moon describe such a flow. It tells us what will happen to him in the future and I'm not sure we can ignore that just because it hasn't happened yet. On page 467 of C.A. Lilly interprets the "Horse Stolen near Henley" horary, where Mercury is the horse and the Sun rules the 2nd house. Mercury is combust and moving to an exact conjunction with the Sun within a degree. Lilly uses this application to judge that the horse would be recovered, because the Sun ruled the querent's "house of substance". The point is, Lilly looked at Mercury's future motion to determine the fate of the horse, even though that motion took Mercury deeper into combustion. I'm looking at this Mercury in the same way and asking "what will happen to the quesited when Mercury reaches the heart of the Sun? And beyond that? Does the time when Mercury leaves combustion indicate when he will once again become "visible" and free from captivity, or will the previous conjunction with Mars, lord of the 12th, auger further imprisonment?"

Quote:
The Sun in this chart rules the fourth house--the grave. The quesited combust the sun is one sign of death. You would want to see three signs of death on the chart before you gave a definitive "no" as a response to the question. As for any missing person chart, check Lilly for signs of death.


I've been reading C.A. page 404, "If the absent party be alive or dead." Lilly focuses on the sig of the querent in either the 4th or the 8th, either from his own ascendant, or of the figure. He also mentions the lord of the ascendant, or the Moon, being in "the twelfth from his owne house" and afflicted by malefics. The rest of the chapter is devoted more to whether or not the absent party is sick, except in the last sentence where he mentions an affliction from the lord of the 8th being capable of killing someone whose significator is very weak and otherwise seriously afflicted by malefics. None of these conditions apply here, so I must presume the man to be alive.

Quote:
The wife's significator is the same as the captor's (both are indicated by the seventh house); therefore you will need to interpret the antiscion cast by Jupiter with caution.


Yes I know. Tricky!

Thanks Pam, I appreciate your help on this.

Cheers,

Pete
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spirlhelix



Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 3:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, Pete

Thanks for the information about Lilly's use of the cazimi. I must admit I had not caught it. I will watch for that on future charts.

I can see that Lilly used zero degrees on his sample charts. I do think that the recent innovation of zero is a good reason to consider the chart questionable, however. For one thing, as much as I admire him, I admit I don't have Lilly's sangfroid! Another thing I have often noted is that digital clocks, for example, are often wrong by a few minutes. I have two clocks on my computer, for example, and they run four minutes apart consistently. Most of the time that makes no difference, but on a chart of zero degrees. . . to spell it out, it could make all the difference between Mercury and Venus as Lord or Lady of the ascendant.

I have always assumed that Lilly was taking the ascendant by astrolabe, which was no doubt a more accurate timing method than are our digital clocks.

Another idea occurred to me while I was at work. If the Moon represents the querent, she must be in very bad emotional shape with all the trauma she is going through. I was thinking about the consideration of Moon in the Via Combusta. I wonder if in some sense the astrologer needs to be cautions to interpret the chart; perhaps to spare someone who is in such a delicate condition of spirit.

I wonder if you would be comfortable telling us what you predicted when you spoke to this querent about her chart?

Best,

Pam
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spirlhelix



Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, Pete

Now that I have time to look over Lilly as well as your chart, here are some of the specifics I found from Lilly which seem to bear on your question.

From Lilly's Twelfth House material:

"Whether a Prisoner of War shall escape or be exchanged, &c.

If the lord of the ascendant separate from the lord of the 4th, and apply to a fortune; or if the lord of the ascendant be cadent, or leaving an angle, he shall escape. Also if he separate from combustion, or ☽ get from under the beams of ☉."

Yes, this confirms what you said about Mercury getting away from the Sun
and then running straight into the arms of Mars:

"It never fails, but that if the ☽, or the significator of a fugitive, be afflicted by an unfortunate planet in the 7th house, that fugitive, or prisoner, is again taken."

Mars is both unfortunate, Lord of the twelfth, and posited in the seventh. It looks like re-capture is most likely; Mars as Lord of the twelfth would be an unknown enemy, in contrast to Jupiter, Lord of the seventh, the known enemy. Mars also disposits the Moon, a condition Lilly also refers to below.

Here are a few more remarks you may find pertinent to the chart:

"Whether a Person Committed to Prison Shall be Discharged?"

". . .The ☽ disposed of by the lord of the 12th, or any malefic, is a sign of a long stay; and it is still worse, if her dispositor be in an angle, and especially in the 4th. If, however, the disposing planet be in a moveable sign, or swift in motion, it shortens the time; but a retrograde planet shews a long detention. If the lord of the ascendant, or ☽, be combust, it shews a long imprisonment."

The Moon is indeed disposed by the Lord of the 12th, indicating a long stay. Although Mercury is moving toward a cazimi, he is nothing now if not combust. So the time frames do not appear to be able to move as quickly as the querent would wish.

In reading over the material on page 404, I noticed something I would like to bring to your attention. I just want to make sure not to overlook any sign that would clarify the outcome of this puzzling and volatile chart.

Here's the quote, in full:

"Together with this, consider if the Lord of the ascendant or the Moon, be in the 12th house from his own house, with any evil planet, of if he be in the twelfth, in aspect of any unfortunate planet, either by square or opposition, or if the sun be unfortunate or afflicted, or the Moon in like manner, for then the absent is dead. . ."

The italics are mine. Is the Sun conjunct the lesser malefic unfortunate? Is the Moon in the Via Combusta afflicted? It gives us a little more to ponder. The Sun and Moon are always critical indicators when looking for signs of death in the chart.

If there are no more clear signs of the quesited's return to his wife than the antiscion between Jupiter and the eleventh house cusp, I am afraid the chart is showing us more negative signs than positive ones. A lengthy captivity, the captive in a weakened condition (Mercury combust, Moon in the sixth house of illness and in the Via Combusta), a brief burst of initiative followed by re-capture. Two signs that suggest death. And little indication of return to his loved ones.

On the positive side, we do have two considerations to excuse us from judging this chart: early ascendant (or is it late? that's the question!) and Moon in the Via Combusta.

In the face of the querent's unfortunate emotional state, the best we might be able to make of the chart is to respectfully explain to the querent that we are not able to make a sound judgement of the chart.
There are factors inherent in the chart that make it poor predictive material. Perhaps we do not wish to subject the querent to further trauma based on predictions made from a questionable chart. It is one thing to make the right prediction and add another trophy to the collection; it may be another thing to be humane enough to let the querent come to her own conclusions about the negative nature of the prediction in her own time. Perhaps a later question will be more definitive.

I will send all my best wishes to the querent and all her family, especially the quesited. And best wishes to you, as well.

Pam
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Pete



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 301
Location: Kinnelon, New Jersey, USA

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


Pam,

thanks for your time and effort with this difficult horary. I'm just about to go out for a couple of hours so I'll respond more fully when I get home.

Regards,
Pete
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Trish



Joined: 17 Nov 2008
Posts: 25

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Pete:

I ran your chart to see if anything other than what you already wrote might pop out to me.

I immediately took notice of how similiar this chart is to one I just recently asked myself. And I thought, if death were being shown in that chart, would it not be present in my chart as well? If you care to take a look it was asked at 4:35 PM, Gaithersburg, MD. In my chart, the asc. has moved slightly to 1' and the rest of the planets are placed in same houses (using placidus on both) and near the same degrees as in yours, Moon also in 6th in Scorpio. Mine is a little worse than his in that Mercury is at 4', Sun at 3', though I suppose you could argue his is worse because Mercury is approaching the Sun. But it is near Cazimi which I would take as reassuring by showing he is about to be set free.

In my chart, Mercury, me, is between Sun and Mars and so may be said to be as besieged. But my point is, that I'm not about to die. (At least I'm pretty sure I'm not). So if his chart were showing that, would not mine also be showing something of that sort too? My question concerned a tooth and I was asking if it needed work or if I could just not go to the dentist appt. someone made for me and let it go.

Trish
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Pete



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 301
Location: Kinnelon, New Jersey, USA

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Thanks for the information about Lilly's use of the cazimi. I must admit I had not caught it. I will watch for that on future charts.


Me too. Perhaps the missing horse horary is an example of the Sun being a significator, in this case the querent's goods, and in such a case the rules regarding combustion don't apply. This is a thorny question and one that has been grappled with on this forum before. Maybe we just need to use "discretion mixed with art" in these cases, as Lilly advises.

Quote:
Another thing I have often noted is that digital clocks, for example, are often wrong by a few minutes. I have two clocks on my computer, for example, and they run four minutes apart consistently. Most of the time that makes no difference, but on a chart of zero degrees. . . to spell it out, it could make all the difference between Mercury and Venus as Lord or Lady of the ascendant.


Oh absolutely, and in this case it's a real pain. I looked at my watch (which tallies with my computer clock) the moment that I understood her question and the time showed 4.20pm, which gave an ascendant off 0* Gemini. She was calling from Pakistan. What blows my mind and shows me just how intricate the workings of the universe are, is that if she had called me a few minutes earlier the ascendant would have been at the end of Taurus and the significations would have changed completely, offering a totally different outcome. This kind of thing always makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up.

Quote:
Another idea occurred to me while I was at work. If the Moon represents the querent, she must be in very bad emotional shape with all the trauma she is going through. I was thinking about the consideration of Moon in the Via Combusta. I wonder if in some sense the astrologer needs to be cautions to interpret the chart; perhaps to spare someone who is in such a delicate condition of spirit.


My understanding of the Moon in the Via Combusta is that the querent, or the situation, is in a desperate emotional or physical state. The only example I could find in C.A. - and I confess I may have missed one but I doubt it - is the "If Bewitched" horary on page 468. Interestingly here we also have a 6th house Scorpio Moon received by Mars, lord of 12th. However the 'Bewitched' Moon is applying to an opposition of Saturn in the 12th. The querent was indeed in desperate and dire circumstances, although not, as it turned out 'bewitched'. Notwithstanding, the Moon in the Via Combusta described the situation and the client's emotional condition. He was ill - sick - and I think Lilly's judgement on this was brilliant, and he never even mentioned the Via Combusta.

Quote:
I wonder if you would be comfortable telling us what you predicted when you spoke to this querent about her chart?


Well, I told her that her neice's husband was being held captive very closely and that naturally he was deeply uncomfortable and very anxious. "Safe" was not a condition that could be taken for granted under the circumstances, I told her, and that she should understand that. I told her further that the situation was in a delicate balance and I felt that either he would try escape but be retaken, or that he would be handed over to someone else and moved to a more hidden location. Can you see how I reached this conclusion? I also told her that the situation was still quite premature and not enough information was available to make a precise judgement but that I felt she and her family needed to steel themselves for the possibility of a long wait. Mercury wants 8 degrees to be free of combustion and I said that he could be freed in either 8 weeks or 8 months.
I didn't contemplate the prospect of his death because the lord of the 8th does not afflict either Mercury or the Moon. In fact, Jupiter receives Mercury into dignity, and I believe that he will be spared.

During the course of yesterday's conversation she said something very interesting. She told me that a couple of months ago the man got into a dispute of some kind over some property that he was dealing with, and the family wondered if this could in any way be linked to the kidnap.
The Sun in this chart, is lord of the 4th. What do you think? Possible?

Cheers,
Pete
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Ema



Joined: 14 Aug 2008
Posts: 206
Location: Slovenia

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Pete, there must be a reason for exactly that asc. degree... I see that reason in the fact that in this chart the 2nd cusp just "catches" Gemini too. 2nd is money, of course - an all-important matter here. If asc. degree was anywhere else those two houses wouldn't have the same ruler. Now, we have the captive (Mercury) in the 7th house of abductors, but we also have money (Mercury) there, so it looks like the money is on its way to abductors. The Sun can also rule his family (home), so Mercury conj. the Sun can mean he'll soon be home again. The Moon will corporally translate light between Mercury, the Sun and Mars Thursday night. Some exchange (at least of information) may happen then. Mercury (money) can "meet" abductors (Mars) Saturday (29th) early morning so that's when he can be released. Generally, the chart looks a bit "dangerous" but all the planets in the 7th are disposed by Jupiter, and the Moon which is indeed in Scorpio (a dire situation) applies by a (wide) sextile to Venus therefore I share the view that this situation will resolve peacefully.
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Gunhilde



Joined: 10 Jun 2006
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Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the planets are received by Jupiter, that might be a good thing...BUT, Jupiter is in fall. Does this have influence: either a weak helper or a 'good enemy'?

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Pete



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
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Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trish,
can you please post the date for your horary? I'm assuming it isn't the 24th, as that doesn't place Mercury between the Sun and Mars.

Cheers,
Pete
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Trish



Joined: 17 Nov 2008
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Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Pete:

Nov. 25th.

I was looking at your chart again and thought since this is him and the enemy 7th, of turning the chart and looking at it from the kidnappers view as well.

I think there is an argument here that the Sun is the police/authorities and that his Mercury moving into Cazimie is a rescue by one in authority. In the kidnappers chart, sun rules 10th.

Also, did you notice that the kidnapper's ruler is opposing the part of death?

Trish
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Ema



Joined: 14 Aug 2008
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Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Does this have influence: either a weak helper or a 'good enemy'?


I opt for the "good enemy"! Jupiter is still Jupiter, benevolent in its essential nature, and although there's nothing like "a honest abductor" of course, it could (in these circumstances) show someone who's about to make a "fair deal" - take the money and release the captive Wink Ps. I'm seeing Jupiter as someone who's "running the show" here, as it disposits all those planets... Or could it represent a foreign account where the money should go? Anyway, let's hope for the best :-)
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Pete



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Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If the planets are received by Jupiter, that might be a good thing...BUT, Jupiter is in fall. Does this have influence: either a weak helper or a 'good enemy'?


Hi Gunhilde,
the way I see it, a fallen planet is weak and has little power to act. If that planet rules the 8th then I'm inclined to believe that this situation has little strength to rob the captive of life. If I saw the lord 8th strong and afflicting the quesited's sig', *especially* if the quesited's sig' received it, I'd be more inclined to think that death would ensue. Here, Jupiter is weak and receives Mercury so I feel that the inclination to kill the captive isn't part of this equation. I have to admit though that I'm flying with rusty goggles here so I just hope I'm right.

Cheers, and thanks for your imput.
Pete
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Pete



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Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I opt for the "good enemy"! Jupiter is still Jupiter, benevolent in its essential nature, and although there's nothing like "a honest abductor" of course, it could (in these circumstances) show someone who's about to make a "fair deal" - take the money and release the captive Wink Ps. I'm seeing Jupiter as someone who's "running the show" here, as it disposits all those planets... Or could it represent a foreign account where the money should go? Anyway, let's hope for the best :-)


Ema, hi - and thanks for weighing in,
I have to admit I'm intrigued by Jupiter in this chart. He rules the 7th (open enemies), the 8th (death) and 11th (freedom from captivity). He holds dominion over all of these things but he's fallen, which suggests he either has no power to harm (or help for that matter), or he has fallen on difficult times and he's desperate. He receives Mercury into dignity- as well as the Sun and Mars - and from this I'm inclined to think that he wants to treat the captive well and not cause him harm. I think that whoever the Sun and Mars are in this chart, they are taking their instruction from Jupiter and that Jupiter has said "scare him but don't hurt him."
When Mercury reaches 9* Sag' he conjoins the antiscion degree of Jupiter and I believe that will be a big turning point in this scenario. I just hope it means the release of the captive after any ransom has been paid. (Mercury rules 2nd and Joop rules 11th).

Cheers,
Pete
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