16
Hi Pete:
Nov. 25th.
Ah. Thanks Trish.
I was looking at your chart again and thought since this is him and the enemy 7th, of turning the chart and looking at it from the kidnappers view as well.
I think there is an argument here that the Sun is the police/authorities and that his Mercury moving into Cazimie is a rescue by one in authority. In the kidnappers chart, sun rules 10th.
Um, I don't quite follow this. If we place the 7th on the cusp of the ascendant, we get an ascendant of 0* Sag and I don't quite get how the Sun rules 10th....?
Also, did you notice that the kidnapper's ruler is opposing the part of death?
The part of Death is at 27 Cancer and change and I see that the antiscion degree of the Sun and Mercury is 27 Capricorn. You just made me gulp because I have no idea whether the opposition is "better" than the conjunction!

Pete

17
Pete wrote: Um, I don't quite follow this. If we place the 7th on the cusp of the ascendant, we get an ascendant of 0* Sag and I don't quite get how the Sun rules 10th....?
If you turn the chart, looking at the derived 10th, (in the turned chart), it is ruled by Leo. And then looking at the derived 12th, it is ruled by Venus which is approaching Jupiter.

Also, I must be calculating Part of Death differently, as my software puts the Part of Death at 23:57 Cancer!

... Edit:

I just checked. I am using Placidus and you are using Regio. That's why our parts of Death are different.

Trish

18
If you turn the chart, looking at the derived 10th, (in the turned chart), it is ruled by Leo. And then looking at the derived 12th, it is ruled by Venus which is approaching Jupiter.
Oh derr! Yes you're quite right, but then we're looking at the situation from the viewpoint of the abductor(s) are we not? I'm unclear as to how this can tell us any more about the abductee's fate. Care to elaborate?
... Edit:

I just checked. I am using Placidus and you are using Regio. That's why our parts of Death are different.
I suspected as much Trish. I was using the degree calculated by Solar Fire v5, set with Regio'. I must say, 23 Cancer looks far less worrying. It's frustrating that one of the more crucial Parts is derived from an intermediate house cusp and therefore will differ depending on the house system. The P.o.D derived from Regiomontanus is more descriptive in this case but I'm still unclear as to the possible meaning of it.

Again, thanx.
Pete

19
Hi, Pete

Thank you for sharing your predictions to the querent about this chart. Your remarks were very diplomatic, to the point, thoughtful, and lucid.

I support your conclusion that there really is not much cause for building up the querent's hopes for a postive answer within her two-week time frame from reading this chart.
I told her further that the situation was in a delicate balance and I felt that either he would try escape but be retaken, or that he would be handed over to someone else and moved to a more hidden location. Can you see how I reached this conclusion?
Oh, yes absolutely. Lilly gives this same prediction nearly word for word in his twelfth-house material about "when would he be released?" Mercury leaves combustion by the Sun and moves to Mars posited in the seventh, Lord of the twelfth. Affliction by a malefic in the seventh, recapture. The twelfth is traditionally a more "hidden" house, and is also used to represent captivity, albeit of usually a more institutional nature such as a prison.

I have been thinking again about the antiscion; actually, I would be more inclined to see it as a postitive sign if it were Mercury (the quesited) antiscion some significant cusp rather than Jupiter (the querent's wife or the captor). One of the very discouraging things about the chart is that I am not able to find an aspect that signifies the ultimate return of the quesited. Perhaps the chart must be seen from the literal phrasing of the question--the return of the captive will not take place within two weeks.

It would be nice to be wrong, though! I hope you will kindly keep us up to date about the outcome of these events.

All my best,

Pam
Last edited by spirlhelix on Thu Nov 27, 2008 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Id rather learn from one bird how to sing than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance"

20
Pete wrote:
If you turn the chart, looking at the derived 10th, (in the turned chart), it is ruled by Leo. And then looking at the derived 12th, it is ruled by Venus which is approaching Jupiter.
Oh derr! Yes you're quite right, but then we're looking at the situation from the viewpoint of the abductor(s) are we not? I'm unclear as to how this can tell us any more about the abductee's fate. Care to elaborate?


Pete
Well, since it is a situation where you have a struggle between the open enemy and the querent, the victim here, I thought it might be helpful to see who's side may prevail.

I think his captivity is shown clearly here, he is in the enemy's clutches, in the 7th and combust. But the combustion is nearing cazimie. I know Pam said its still combustion but if it were Cazimie, he wouldn't be a victim would he? So perhaps it described the current situation at the time, but also where it was headed by being mere minutes from Cazimie.

Also, Mercury is trining his own 4th cusp. That may be positive testimony of his return home.

When turning the chart to view the enemy, (the kidnapper's) chart, it shows me that he just recently secretly kidnapped the victim just before the question was asked.

Now excuse me if I offer up some modern astrology -- Pluto rules kidnapping and kidnappers as well as Neptune which is a secondary ruler. Interestingly, in the kidnapper's chart, the moon is in its fall, in his (the kidnapper's 12th), and *separating* from a sextile to Pluto (kidnapping), showing the kidnapping. Pluto falls in the kidnapper's 2nd house of possessions/finances.

Venus rules the kidnappers' 12th house. If the Sun, which Mercury is moving towards in 'Cazimie', is indeed the government authority (10th ruler), this may be positive of course for the victim, but bad for the kidnapper, especially with his own 12th ruler, Venus moving towards him. Also, the moon's last aspect is a square to Neptune, in the kidnapper's end of matter 4th house showing a bad ending for him rather than the victim.

Saturn in the victim's chart rules 10th, of government. Jupiter is separating from a trine to Saturn and I would read that as Jupiter trying to evade Saturn in the chart. Jupiter is in fall with no help from its dispositor. Jupiter opposes the Part of Death, and its dispositor, Saturn sextiles Part of Death. Mercury makes no aspect to it.

The worse thing I see in the chart has already taken place, and that was the moon sextile Pluto while falling in the victim's chart in the 8th house. But that could (in modern astrology) be showing injury - not necessarily death to the victim while over powering him during the past kidnapping event.

Maybe I'm just trying to hard to see a positive outcome for the victim. But I'm just considering all angles here.

Its very late and I'm afraid I've rambled a bit. Hope its intelligible.

Trish

21
Hi Trish

I had a response to a question you asked in your previous post on this thread:
I immediately took notice of how similiar this chart is to one I just recently asked myself. And I thought, if death were being shown in that chart, would it not be present in my chart as well?
There may have been several questions asked around the same time with a similar ascendant, but uness the question specifically requires information about life or death, there is no need to look for it on the chart.

In this case, the nature of the question (an absent person apparently kidnapped) and the phrasing of the question regarding "safety"--a veiled way of phrasing a question about the condition, life and vitality of the quesited--both require that we, as the doctors say, "rule out" death on the chart. Any chart for an absent person demands that we check to make sure they are alive, and what their current condition is.

Other times we look for death are when the querent specifically asks, and on decumbiture charts. When someone asks about the outcome of surgery, I usually look for death just because of the implied risk involved in going under the knife. Although signs of death may abound on the chart of any given question, it is really only important to examine them in the questions that demand an answer about life and death.

In decumbiture, we want to see three signs of death and no signs of recovery before we judge the chart to predict death. The last aspect indicating death to perfect chronologically would be the one to use for timing.

Hope this is useful!

Best,

Pam
"Id rather learn from one bird how to sing than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance"

22
I would say he is not close to his house. Maybe even in another city.
Close to the water, or in a dark, hidden place, not many houses around.
The timing of two weeks seens a little optimistic. I would expect the minimun in 8 days after the question, but that don?t seen likely.

I think it is most probable a longer period, like a month.
Meu blog de astrologia (em portugues) http://yuzuru.wordpress.com
My blog of astrology (in english) http://episthemologie.wordpress.com

23
Hi, Trish

Thank you for your discussion. What do you predict from the chart? Will the quesited return to his wife in two weeks, and will he be "safe"--I assume that means "alive and unharmed"?

As for me, I would say the answer given by the chart is no. The quesited will not return in the two week time frame, and even if he is alive, he is not completely "unharmed" by his captivity.

I would be interested to hear your conclusions.

Best,

Pam
"Id rather learn from one bird how to sing than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance"

24
Hi Pam,

I tend to agree with your conclusions. I doubt that he'll be released in the 2 week time frame - even though Mercury is moving quite fast, the Moon is only slightly faster than average. As for the second part of the question, a lot depends on the definition of the word "safe". Of course being safe isn't the same thing as being unharmed, but it is a world apart from being dead too, and right now I think the family would settle for him returning alive. What are your thoughts on that? Lilly,
on p.156 of C.A., while
interpreting a preceding figure, asks if "one absent be dead or alive" and discusses conjunctions, oppositions or translations of light between the significators (lord 1 and Moon) and planets in or ruling the 6th and/or 8th houses. None of those conditions obtain here, so I'm inclined to believe him to be alive. Also, on page 322, while discussing whether a thing stolen is alive or dead, he talks of the Moon, and whether or not she applies to the lord of the 8th house from her (in this case Mercury, lord 1st), or if her ruler applies to the same lord, or as a last resort if the lord of the 8th applies to the lord of the 8th from the Moon. Again, none of this obtains here, even though the one warning bell is that Mercury - the quesited's sig and lord of the 8th from the Moon applies to Mars, the lord of the Moon. This is the converse of the second condition above (the Moon's lord applying to the 8th from the Moon). What I'm conscious of and I'm trying to keep in the forefront of my mind are the rules that Lilly sets out, and none of the rules concerning death are present in this chart. He doesn't mention combustion by the lord of the 4th, or the quesited's sig' applying to lord of the 12th, as Mercury will eventually do here, so I have to conclude that the querent is alive and will remain so.

Thoughts?

I just want to take this opportunity to once again thank you and Trish and Yuzuru and anyone else for your helpful ideas. This is a tough one.

Cheers,
Pete

26
Hi, Pete

In answer to the question you raised about signs of death in the chart, I do see two signs cited by Lilly in his material on the absent party:

<<Together with this, consider if the Lord of the ascendant or the Moon, be in the 12th house from his own house, with any evil planet, of if he be in the twelfth, in aspect of any unfortunate planet, either by square or opposition, or if the sun be unfortunate or afflicted, or the Moon in like manner, for then the absent is dead. . .">>

Decumbiture charts are some of my favorite horary material. Death on the chart is the first thing we look for in traditional decumbiture. If I could borrow some of the traditions of decumbiture and read the reference to the Sun and Moon totally independently of findings of the Lord of the ascendant or Moon in the 12th house from his own house, then there are indications on the chart of death. Borrowing representation from decumbiture, The Sun represents the life force: if you will, the vitality of (in this case) the quesited, while the Moon represents his ability to renew his energies.

Sun in conjunction with the lesser malefic, Mars, is not a good indication for the quesited's vitality. Conjunction is considered evil when it joins one planet to an evil planet (Sun to Mars). The conjunction could represent an injury, fever, or infection, perhaps coinciding with the prisoner's recapture. The Moon in turn suffers by her placement in the Via Combusta. The ability to recover is waning, like the waning Moon, and unstable in action, like Moon in the Via Combusta. According to my reading of Lilly's material on the absent quesited, Lilly calls these both signs of death. However, I would never be content to attribute death on a chart from only two signs. I would want to see three signs before I judged death, and even then I would only judge death if there were no signs of recovery on the chart.

There is a sign of recovery in that the Moon is moving next to a sextile with Venus, the lesser benefic. So I believe there will be at least a temporary improvement in the condition of the quesited during the next two weeks.

I can't really say that I have found the third sign of death in the chart using Lilly's material on the absent person. However, the chart is certainly not showing us a person at the peak of health, vitality or ability to recover.

As for the question of returning alive, I don't know that the chart is showing us that. I don't see the return on the chart--possibly because it is not within the two week time frame demanded by the querent--so I hesitate to make the ultimate prediction about the condition of the quesited upon his return.

Unfortunately, all I can say at this time is that I believe the quesited will not return within the two week time frame. Because the chart seems silent to me on the event of his return, I cannot predict what his condition will be upon return. However, according to the chart, I believe he was living-- but not in especially good condition--at the time the question was asked.

Have you heard any news from the querent yet? Best wishes to her and her family.

Hope this is useful!

Best,

Pam
"Id rather learn from one bird how to sing than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance"

27
Hi Pam,
you wrote:
<<Together with this, consider if the Lord of the ascendant or the Moon, be in the 12th house from his own house, with any evil planet, of if he be in the twelfth, in aspect of any unfortunate planet, either by square or opposition, or if the sun be unfortunate or afflicted, or the Moon in like manner, for then the absent is dead. . .">>
Can you give the page in C.A. where you found this quote? I can't seem to find it.
Have you heard any news from the querent yet?


I spoke to the cousin of his wife the other day. She's in England and has had no word from her cousin or her aunt with regard to developments. She asked if anyone on the forum here had made any comments and I gave her a brief outline of everyone's ideas. She thanked me and said she would keep me informed of anything that she heard.

Thanks for the information Pam, it's good of you to take the time and I do appreciate it.

Cheers,
Pete