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The Arabic Part of Imprisonment
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Dave M.



Joined: 01 Nov 2008
Posts: 71
Location: Northern California

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 12:18 pm    Post subject: The Arabic Part of Imprisonment Reply with quote

Howdy. I thought many of you would appreciate evidence to support the use of the Parts.
I recieved a Traffic citation at the end of August for 'Exhibitionism on the road'...I drive a '79 GMC stepside pickup [they are notoriously light in the rear end]...I was on wet pavement, stopped at a light and when it turned 'Green' my rear wheels lost traction and I 'spun' my rear tires....the policeman was unsympathetic to my explanation and I decided to take it to trial.
I was given the trial date of November 21st, 2008.
My Arabic Part of Imprisonment is at 21* Virgo 16' ...exactly where Saturn was conjunct that day.
The Judge was a bit preturbed at my my going to trial and not only found me guilty but also increased my fine by $150.00 [to a total of $492.00] and gave me a 30 day suspension of my license...'nuff said.
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aglaya



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
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Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, there, Dave!

I started being interested in Arabic parts only about a year ago and I'm mainly searching for evidences of how they actually work in the chart previously delineated and somehow I think they're rather descriptive sometimes and can fill in some holes in the picture but I'm still rather careful when it comes to them. I can't help but feeling- they never work alone. They're there to give a better description of what aspects and planet placements promise to bring along but they don't cause things to happen (please, do note this is my impression, I'm not trying to suggest it is a rule). Even people who never get married have a Part of Fortune somewhere, people who never get in jail, have got a Part of Inprisonment... I did spot some of A. parts closly conjuct a strong partile aspect promising life events of the same nature as the A. part but here I'm talking about major life events. I'm not familiar with how strong they are when it comes to situations such as this one you've experienced and how "active" they become when transits are concerned.

Though, you weren't arrested after all! Smile

I got a driving ticket this May for driving just 1 km/H to fast Smile and decided myself to take it to court instead of paying the fee. At first, i did it because I was furious and didn't have enough money in the car anyway but after looking at my transits for that day, it did turn out I'd get stuck with administration this way or the other.The policeman was actually wrong because, according to the law, there is a certain "security difference" - long story short; you can't even get the ticket unless you're driving at least 10 km/H to fast. So, though I still had the chance to pay the fee and move on, I decided not to because the transits were promissing it would turn out just fine. Good transits the day I went to the court and the judge "forgave" me and dismissed the charges. I kept my driving licence, didn't need to pay the ticket, only gave me 1 " negative point" (7 points, you lose your ddriving licence for 6 months). Sometimes transits can really cause you to have an unlucky day.

What about you Mercury trans. aspects the day it all happened? Mars? And, as for the judge, Sun (general authority ) might be revealing a part of that story!
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Dave M.



Joined: 01 Nov 2008
Posts: 71
Location: Northern California

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greetings Aglaya.
...you might like to note that as far as I know I'm the only astrologer on record noticing and stating that George 'W' Bush had Saturn conj. his Part of Assassination on August 31/Sept 1 2006...note what happened on that date...the Canadians released a fictional film depicting 'W' being shot on some American street...
I've noticed that the descriptive title of the 'Part' in question can be mis-leading due to problems of translation or transliteration...the Part of Inheritance and Legacy is a good example of this as is the Part of Fortune...I've found that these descriptive titles refer to both 'Spiritual' and ' Mundane' affairs.
The Part of Fortune, I've found, actually refers to the most 'Fortunate' action...not 'Fortune' in the monetary sense...that would be the Part of Benifits and Increase.
I find that a suspension of ones driving privilege is a form of Imprisonment.
F.Y.I. My natal Mercury is at 27* Aries 57'...my natal Mars is at 04* Gemini 05'...thus transiting Mercury was Quincunx the natal Merc. and transiting Mars was opposite the natal Mars...what a stacked deck I had to contend with....OY!
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Dave M.



Joined: 01 Nov 2008
Posts: 71
Location: Northern California

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...also it may interest some of you to know that Barack Obamas Part of Imprisonment is the 19th degree of Pisces...right where Uranus is currently doint it's 'Dance'...I am watching this transit closely as that degree of the Zodiac is also my Part of Inheritance and Legacy...also you may be interested in that I propose it is the Part of Fortune in my proposed birth chart of Jesus....and 'What a Sabian Symbol'!
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Dave M.



Joined: 01 Nov 2008
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Location: Northern California

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Howdy again. I thought that I'd also mention that I have natal Jupiter at 29* Taurus 25', the only 'Orb' I have in an anaretic degree.
Thus, aspects made by transits to my natal Jupiter are always succeeded by aspects to my natal Mars at 04* Gemini 05'...[and Mercury at 27* Aries 57' is next in line before Jupiter as to the sucession of degrees].
It does lead to an interesting sucession of defined activity as to the relative order of these Planets as per the transiting 'Orbs' and the subsequent unfolding of events.
Mercury = Travel [My Truck and License], Jupiter = Courts/Jurisdiction [The Ticket and Court appearence], Mars = Action [[My ability and desire to drive the truck]
...I should also note that Mercury was nearly opposite my natal Jupiter that day [my bad for not noting this] and that by the "Astrolabe World Ephemeris" Mercury was at a perfect quincuncx to natal Mercury at 4:00 pm pdt here...I should have had the trial date postponed...In retrospect I should have paid more close attention to this event..."Physician heal thyself!"
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Tara



Joined: 26 Apr 2006
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Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Dave,
Quote:
...the Canadians released a fictional film depicting 'W' being shot on some American street...

While it did debut at Toronto Film Festival, "Death of a President" was a British production.

Quote:
...also it may interest some of you to know that Barack Obamas Part of Imprisonment is the 19th degree of Pisces...right where Uranus is currently doint it's 'Dance'...

And one of his first orders of business will be to close down Guantanamo Bay, which seems fitting.

Tara
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Dave M.



Joined: 01 Nov 2008
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Location: Northern California

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've given this Arabic Part of Imprisonment some days contemplation now. I am beginning to suspect that by "Imprisonment" the Part is refering to ones obsessive or fixative nature or drive. Sort of like the 'Flame' the "Moth' in you is drawn to.
My Part of Imprisonment is the 21st degree of Virgo. The Sabian Symbol is about 'Physical training' as it relates to society.
I have a very obsessive nature towards physical exercise, and always have had it. At one time I put in 30 to 40 hours a week on the Tennis courts along with 10 to 12 hours a week in the weight room/ Gym...I still exercise daily for a minimum of 40 mins. a day along with a lenghty walk afterwards...I am nearing 56 years of age.
I checked this Part symbolically with the charts of my most close friends and find this analogy has something going for it...if it is not altogether accurate.
Have any of you Sabian Astrologers taken note of this symbolically for your selves?
If I am correct in my analysis, then Obama may possibly be assumed to be driven by the need to understand the teachings of his spiritual master.
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epurdue



Joined: 14 Nov 2007
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Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave M. wrote:
I've given this Arabic Part of Imprisonment some days contemplation now. I am beginning to suspect that by "Imprisonment" the Part is refering to ones obsessive or fixative nature or drive. Sort of like the 'Flame' the "Moth' in you is drawn to.
My Part of Imprisonment is the 21st degree of Virgo. The Sabian Symbol is about 'Physical training' as it relates to society.


Traditional astrology is pretty literal in cases like this. Imprisonment means just that - imprisonment. Literally. Now of course everyone has a Part of Imprisonment, so the question is if it's a problem in an individual chart.

What I am about to say is admittedly guesswork, but it follows the usual logic for these kinds of things.

I'm looking at Bonatti, and he doesn't talk about a Part of Imprisonment. I'm pretty sure it's considered a 12th house Part since the 12th deals with imprisonment. It could be a fouth house matter, but I doubt it.

Anyway, in his passage on 12th house Parts (in this case hidden enemies), he says that if the Part is in opposition or square to its Lords (I'll get into this later), or to the Lord of the Ascendant, the native will have many enemies. If it is free from its Lords and the Lord of the Ascendant, he will not have enemies easily.

It's almost the same in the case of the other major 12th house Part - the Part of Labor and Affliction. In this case if the Part is afflicted as above, then they will have a very laborious life. If it's not afflicted, then he will profit from labor easily.

Apply this to the Part of Imprisonment. If it's afflicted, then you are at risk. If it's not, then you're cool.

In addition, it's important to remember that the Parts are never used alone. For the Part of Imprisonment, I'd first check other indications of imprisonment. If this is the case, and your Part of Imprisonment is afflicted, I'd worry.

Now regarding Lords of the Parts, in medieval astrology, they wouldn't limit themselves to the sign ruler. Your Part is at 21 Virgo. If you use Egyptian terms, you'd have the following rulers:

Sign - Mercury
Exaltation - Mercury
Triplicties - Venus, Moon, Mars
Term - Jupiter
Decan/Face - Mercury

You'd need to see if first the Part is afflicted - basically if it's in square or opposition to one of the above mentioned planets.
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Dave M.



Joined: 01 Nov 2008
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Location: Northern California

Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The formula for the Part of Imprisonment is Asc. + Part of Fortune - Neptune...thus I doubt you'll find anything in 'Traditional Astrology' about this Part.
I question all nomenclature of the Parts. I believe they were for the most Part roughly translated into English and they need further refining/defining.
The so called Part of Slavery is a prime example...I find it has nothing to do with the ownership of slaves, as was the accepted notion in the middle ages, but rather refers to the servitude of ones own spiritual karma.
I am asking here for insights into symbolic interpretation as related to the essence of the Part as well.
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yuzuru



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
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Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, Dave, with all do respect, I think you are the one who start the confusion when you said that you are interested in "arabic parts". Although we know that some parts are not really arabic, but helenistic, a part which contains netptune is clearly not arabic and I really donīt think this name should be used to name an modern part.

Besides that, traditional astrology already have and arabic part of imprisonment (which is greek in nature), much time before the discovery of neptune, so I think it should be the onus of modern astrology, if it want to invent new parts, to at least give new names, like part of neptune.

I also was going to give advice on the use of the arabic part. Now that I see that you are using a modern lot and sabian symbols, my advice has no use at all, and I am glad that I discovered that before taking the time to answer a completely different question.

By the way, great post mithra
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epurdue



Joined: 14 Nov 2007
Posts: 327

Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess that explains why I didn't see a Part of Imprisonment in Bonatti. It almost sounds like a Part they would have had.

This modern propensity of randomly changing things really confuses me. On one hand there are probably too may Parts. Al-Biruni famously joked about that, and that was a 1000 years ago.

The Part of Slavery, again, means slavery. However Robert Zoller made an interesting argument that in the modern world, where there is rarely a legal institution of slavery, that it could also refer to adversity. The basic argument is that if the planets ever signified something at one time in history, then they should still signify the same thing at this time in history.

Outside the legal institution of slavery, what does it boil down to? The slave has no control over their life. They are constantly in a mode where they have to do what they can to survive. Historically a slave couldn't make their own decisions. They were owned. They had maybe a roof and food and that was it.

Today, a person with a lot of adversity - say poverty or homlessness is maybe not a slave in the historical sense, but like a slave they are focused on survival and can rarely step back enough to go outside of that mode. You are always reactive to your environment.

So actually you can still show indications of slavery without being a literal slave or rewriting the book with modern psychobabble.
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Dave M.



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Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greetings Yuzuru and Mithra...good posts!
As to "Inventing" new Parts...I feel you've tried to draw a box around the knowledge. I'm not inventing anything...only extrapolating.
There is a Mathmatical formula for all the Orbs in repect to the 'Parts' [There has to be]...and yes I know the Arabs didn't invent these nor did the Greeks for that matter [I believe]...this Science of Astrology is beyond the time of man...it was established with the creation of the Unjiverse... in fact it is the Universe as it governs it!
...I understand the bulk of you Astrologers at this web site to be MOST 'traditional' and I'm trying to be respectful of that.
I feel that the 'traditional' view is somewhat limited though and even falls short of the mark where it isn't, at times...
I find very few Astrologers even in the 'Modernistic' school that utilize the Parts and even fewer that utilize Sabian Symbology...and as far as combining the two...nearly nil.
I have been in close observation of the influence of the Parts and Sabian Symbology for well over 20 years now...I have seen them in undisputable action repeatedly...I urge all of you to keep an eye on them and the Sabians yourselves...it does take time to see but with constant observation and analysis I feel you will make a breakthrough in understanding...Rudhyar says just that about the Sabians in his book on the subject...r.e. [I'm parphrasing here] "That it may take years of observation to finally get it"
I appreciate the chance to air my views here at your fine forum and I appreciate those of you that take an interest and/or those of you that may just be 'humoring' me.
I'l take what I can get.
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margherita



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Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave M. wrote:

I find very few Astrologers even in the 'Modernistic' school that utilize the Parts and even fewer that utilize Sabian Symbology...and as far as combining the two...nearly nil.
I have been in close observation of the influence of the Parts and Sabian Symbology for well over 20 years now...I have seen them in undisputable action repeatedly...I urge all of you to keep an eye on them and the Sabians yourselves...


I completely agree with Yuzuru and Mithra.
I can't find anything in common between Parts and Sabian symbols.

Arab Parts are like chart angles and for this reason they are so powerful in a chart. Ptolemy, talking about Part of Fortune, writes:

"It is in all cases, both by night and day, to be so computed and set down, that the Moon may hold with it the same relation as that which the Sun may hold with the ascendant; and it thus becomes, as it were, a lunar horoscope or ascendant" Tetr. III,11

This is the very reason some astrologers, like Placido, used calculate them in mundo rather than in longitude.

On the other hand Sabian Symbols come from a clairvoyant, no more, no less. If you ask me, I can invent for you a totally new list, nothing to share with astrology.

In traditional astrology images of degrees are very important but are linked with paranatellonta, stars rising with a certain degree of Ascendant.
Differently from Sabian symbols, traditional images come from the 48 constellations in the sky.
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Dave M.



Joined: 01 Nov 2008
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Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...so where did the symbolic representation of the Signs and the attributes of the Planets come from?...from someone who SAW...a Clairvoyant...no more, no less...
...same difference.
Like I said it takes years of observation, don't give up so easily. Have you tried to assess, through Sabian Symbology, the Parts of your own chart or of those you are more intimately involved with?
Also, I have many threads and posts at the Astrodienst website forum on this with many examples of evidence of it in work.
May God Bless You in your striving.

ps...check out the posts of Skippy Sanchez and my posts in the News section for more on this Sabian biz.
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epurdue



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Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave M. wrote:
...so where did the symbolic representation of the Signs and the attributes of the Planets come from?...from someone who SAW...a Clairvoyant...no more, no less...
...same difference.


This isn't correct unless you are stretching the word "clairvoyant". The Sabian symbols were created by a psychic. A side note here, but I'd like to know why Jones used the word "Sabian". Sabian symbols have nothing to do with historical Sabaeans.

Anyway, I'll quote from Ben Dykes' translation of Bonatti here from a section called "Why the signs were named by these names". I'll only quote Aries since the rest follows the same idea. He first talks about how visually the lines drawn between the stars appear like images to us. This is the reason we are all familiar with. He goes on though:

"There is another reason why the signs are denominated by such names: namely, when the Sun enters Aries heat is increased, for the reason that the Sun begins to be elongated from the equinoctial line and approaches toward the zenith of the northern regions; and he is made strong in accordance with how the ram (Aries) is said to have powers with respect to the strong ones of the animals."

So this is not simply some bearded mystic pontificating on the psychic energy of the stars. We also have early examples of Babylonian observations of the planets in certain signs and their relation to terrestrial matters. They have things like (and I am making this example up) the Moon is entering Virgo, crops are bountiful.

Astrology started out this way. Planet X has configuration Y with something, and then Z happens. We don't know if the planets were named after the gods, or the gods named after the planets, but it's clear that there are a long initial period of observation and note taking. The Mesopotamians were certainly known for record keeping. Boring reading though.

It is also presumptuous that traditional astrology is "limited". How? I have yet to find something I can't answer with traditional astrology except for maybe a psychological profile.

Modern astrologers, rather than learn the actual techniques, instead invent new ones every time they can't answer a question. It's like a kid with a shiny new toy. Somehow we "limited" traditional astrologers seem to answer all of our client's questions with 7 planets, some Parts and fixed stars, Ptolemaic aspects, and no asteroids or outer planets. Most of us don't even use transits for predictions. For the most part we just need the birth chart.

Oh and Dave, this isn't personal against you. You just happen to say a few things I hear over and over again from modern astrologers.
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