skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Can assassinations be prevented? by Elsbeth Ebertin
translated by Jenn Zahrt PhD
A Guide to Interpreting The Great American Eclipse
by Wade Caves
The Astrology of Depression
by Judith Hill
Understanding the mean conjunctions of the Jupiter-Saturn cycle
by Benjamin Dykes
Understanding the zodiac: and why there really ARE 12 signs of the zodiac, not 13
by Deborah Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

The Arabic Part of Imprisonment
Goto page Previous  1, 2
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Nativities & General Astrology
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
yuzuru



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 1392

Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In traditional astrology images of degrees are very important but are linked with paranatellonta, stars rising with a certain degree of Ascendant.


Hi, gjiada,could you give us an example, or ellaborate on that ?
_________________
Meu blog de astrologia (em portugues) http://yuzuru.wordpress.com
My blog of astrology (in english) http://episthemologie.wordpress.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
epurdue



Joined: 14 Nov 2007
Posts: 327

Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yuzuru wrote:
Quote:
In traditional astrology images of degrees are very important but are linked with paranatellonta, stars rising with a certain degree of Ascendant.


Hi, gjiada,could you give us an example, or ellaborate on that ?


I don't know if Giada has another example (if so that would be very cool), but Angelus' "Astroloical Optics" comes to mind. It has images for each of the degrees plus the decans.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dave M.



Joined: 01 Nov 2008
Posts: 71
Location: Northern California

Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

....I take no offense, personally.
I only regret that so many just easily dismiss these symbols.
They are known to have been understood and utilized in ancient times...but the knowledge was lost.
Thus you lead me to conclude your only real problem with these symbols is that they were re-ascertained by a clairvoyant. Thus it would seem you have no belief in clairvoyance...
I myself have strong clairvaoyant proclivities and have had many experiences of clairvoyant and clairaudant nature...My good friend Clarisse Conner is a professional clairvoyant...I will testify to her abilities...she can 'SEE' what was and/or what is with uncanny accuracy.
I have also been studying the life and readings of the American clairvoyant, Edgar Cayce, since I was a wee lad...continuing the interest and study my parents have been pursuing since the 1940s'.
Linda Hill, the worlds most reknowed Sabian Astrologer, did a wonderful radio talk on the internet about the symbols, the Astrologer and the clairvoyant whom re-ascertasined them, to which I have provided a link to in the 'News' section...you really should give it a listen.
Also, Rudhyars book on the subject is a must read in my opinion. It took me many years to be convinced of these symbols...as Rudhyar said it would take. [Yet I saw indications of their validity right from the 'get go'].
It takes but a moment to refer to these symbols in any chart analysis...you can do it secretively and no one else even has to know...so why not give it a whirl?
I would no more rely, completely, on 13th century Astrological understanding than I would rely on 13th century Astronomical knowledge.
I believe that at one time Astrology was thoroughly understood but was lost due to the procession of the 'Yugas' [Sanskrit for the 'Ages'...yogic science]...but then again I believe in the existence of Atlantis and similiar civilizations as described by Edgar Cayce. I believe we have to find and return to the study what was forgotten and figure out what was lost and /or changed for the worse.
It is very similiar to my outlook on religions...I feel no one of them has all of or a complete set of answers to our existence...you might say I'm something of a Unitarian in such matters...quite possibly I will refer myself as Unitarian in this subject as well...the term 'Modernist' seems so inadequate and inaccurate to me.
...but then again I like my beer ice cold, I don't like Scotch [ I prefer Bourbon over all] and I'd much rather read Vonnegut than Dickens...so what do I know?
_________________
You are a Divine expression of the Universe.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 1368
Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mithra6 wrote:
I don't know if Giada has another example (if so that would be very cool), but Angelus' "Astroloical Optics" comes to mind. It has images for each of the degrees plus the decans.


Hello, Mithra and Yuzuru

Yes, I was thinking of Angelus. But their origins is older. Angelus just edited the manuscript written by Pietro Abano (1257-1315).

And Abano's images come directly- Saxl thinks through the Spanish manuscript known as Vat.Reg.1283 - from Albumasar images of paranatellonta rising with 36 facies of Great Introduction. A illustrated version of this book with the images of 36 facies is known as Fendulus' Liber Astrologiae.

And on the other hand Albumasar just elaborated them, he took them from Teucer, the hellenist astrologer.

Moreover we have several texts with indications of degrees - if not the complete list. Firmicus gives one, and the Liber Hermetis, and Alphonse's Spanish manuscript too.
I translated the list from this latter, it's in my blog between downloads. Moreover this manuscript was illustrated: for every sign there is a wheel with the image of the zodiacal sign in the center and images of 30 degrees around.
And I think there is another Medieval Spanish book similar to Vat.Reg. 1283, now I don't remember its name, but Vat.Reg. 1283 is famous for the beauty of its images .


Margherita
_________________
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
epurdue



Joined: 14 Nov 2007
Posts: 327

Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave M. wrote:
....I take no offense, personally.
They are known to have been understood and utilized in ancient times...but the knowledge was lost.
Thus you lead me to conclude your only real problem with these symbols is that they were re-ascertained by a clairvoyant. Thus it would seem you have no belief in clairvoyance...


This is very shaky logic.

First of all, as Giada and I have mentioned, symbols for each of the degrees IS old, but it wasn't lost. In fact it's very easy to find. In the post above me Giada expands on this.

This is another common thing I've noticed in modern astrology. Astrologers say to themselves "We need to be able to XYZ in astrology. I don't think anyone has ever XYZed, so I'll develop a technique so that I can be famous for my XYZ abilities!". They don't seem to research first to see if astrology has ever XYZed in the past.

Sabian Symbols is a good example. Marc Edmund Jones thought it would be great to have symbols for every degree to aid in delineation. To be fair it IS a great idea. Also to be fair, maybe Jones didn't have researching resources available to him. Whatever the case, it was already done. Hundreds of years ago.

"The first degree of Aries is of a man holding a sickle in his right hand and an arbalest in is left. This man works and sometimes gives himself to war"

There are also symbols for each of the decans.

Another curious thing is that many modern astrologers automatically dismiss traditional astrology because "it's old LOL". Here is something to ponder:

Most current traditional astrologers used to practice modern astrology.

Thus, if modern astrology is such an amazing evolution of astrology, this logically means one of the following:

1. Modern traditional astrologers are delusional
2. Modern traditional astrologers are superstitious
3. Modern traditional astrologers tried modern techniques and found them lacking

Traditional astrology is not about believing medieval astronomy. It is about a methodical and technical approach to find specific answers. In fact these answers can be more specific than most modern astrologers think is possible. Not only that, you can get these answers with less effort.

I also have to highly question the notion that there is some fuzzy past golden age that has been lost. Sure we have lost some knowledge. There is no question. But where was this golden age? What evidence do you have of this lost knowledge? Do you actually believe that Mesopotamian (or Atlantian) kings hired astrologers to give them psychological profiles?

I don't think modern astrology is wrong. I find modern astrologers' uninformed assumptions of traditional astrology wrong.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dave M.



Joined: 01 Nov 2008
Posts: 71
Location: Northern California

Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...Yes many different archetypal symbols from many different sources...but consider th source[s]...
I've studied much, much more than Astrology. In fact Astrology to me is only the furtherence, expansion and accentuation of what other studies and knowledge I've worked with.
I go along wih the theory that the TRUE symbolic representation of the degrees of the Zodiac were lost and or muddled with time. Cherubals' attempt to ascertain these same symbols was more damaging than help, for one example...the Vedic Astrologers get even more symbols from their system...and the Vedas are, by many who study antiquity, the oldest source of knowledge that is still available to connect with...so why don't I utillize Vedic Symbology?
When people ask me if I'm an Astrologer my general reply is NO, I'm not...what I am is a 'Mystic' by inclination and experience. My own birth chart is evident of this...that is unless you are one of those Astrologers that doesn't believe the 'Stars' confer such proclivities and abilities.
I was asked not to promote my book or it's theories outside of the threads in the 'News Forum'...but I will mention this once here in this thread that my bio/background can be found in that book. I only got into Astrology as it helped me understand the experiences I had obtained and my resultant reactions to those experiences.
I was told that 'Skyscript' would be somewhat "Hostile Territory" for me to tread into...I only wish to share these experiences and observatons with those whom will find some use for them.
I abhor "Psychoanalytical Astrology" as much as I abhor Psychiatrists and Psycologists, their 'Science' and their methods.
What I practice is primarily Chart Axis interpretation as to the WHO, WHERE-TO, HOW and WHY of ones existence. [ASc. Desc. Nadir and Mid-Haven] I have found that symbolical interpretation of the Parts/Lots to be valid and most useful in determining proper activity within the realm of the nature of the particular Part in question and in relation to the mission in life indicated by the Axis.
What I'm after is understanding ones spiritual mission in life...as Rudhyar said that Sabian Symbolic Chart Axis analysis produces...and I have subsquently found through 25 years of analysis and study to be true.
I once told a friend, Tha it's not unlike my being a Top Sargeant in the military...House placement of the Orbs and the relative aspects made between them are all about your personal problems..."I don't care what your personal problems are Soldier, you have a mission to accomplish...[as indicated by your Axis analysis] get up and charge over that hill!"
_________________
You are a Divine expression of the Universe.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1380

Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What I practice is primarily Chart Axis interpretation as to the WHO, WHERE-TO, HOW and WHY of ones existence. [ASc. Desc. Nadir and Mid-Haven] I have found that symbolical interpretation of the Parts/Lots to be valid and most useful in determining proper activity within the realm of the nature of the particular Part in question and in relation to the mission in life indicated by the Axis.

... you have a mission to accomplish...[as indicated by your Axis analysis] ...


Where did you get the idea that you can find complete answers to who, where, how and why by just using the angles? You're trying to strip the system down for ease and your purposes. Then you're padding it and filling it back up with the parts/lots which always were secondary and Sabian Symbols, those shifty, fluffy things that can easily be stuffed into any nook and cranny. You said you aren't an astrologer. So why are you able to use elements of astrology with any sort of authority or clearly understood basis? It's necessary to become very knowledgeable of the whole before possibly using only parts of astrology. You apparently don't see that you haven't given us any reason to take your ideas very seriously.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dave M.



Joined: 01 Nov 2008
Posts: 71
Location: Northern California

Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...You ARE a tough crowd...
...here is a post I put over at the 'Astrologers Community' web site forum this morning...it will be my last post here in your forum...[It doesn't mean there is any love lost between us]...it's time for me to move on.
...Regards, blessings and may God Bless you all in your striving. Dave Mastry. Smile

...Greetings, I am presuming that a good many of you may be unaware of the 'matrical connection' between the degrees/symbols in the Zodiac.
Lynda Hill and I have been in some correspondence for a least a couple of years now and she and I have shared some observations.
As far as I know it was Rudhyar that first proposed these connections [as far as anything that has been written on the subject since Marc Edmond Jones and Elsie Wheeler re-ascertained these symbols].
Rudhyar mentions this most specifically in his book "An Astrological Mandalla" in the chapter titled "The Cross and the Star".
Lynda and I have noted that any Matrix constructed within the Zodiac will lead to symbols supportive of each other within these matrices. Lynda Hill mentions this matrical connection in the internet radio broadcast she did with the American Astrologer, Dena DeCastro, that was first 'aired' on last August 28th [I started a thread on Lyndas, web broadcast and her web site, yesterday in this Forum, and provide the link to listen to it].
Try constructing a Grand Cross, a Pentagram, Trine, Magen David, Septiles et. al. within the framework of the Zodiac and look at the resultant symbols.
I mention in my book how Rabbi Dobyns' book "Kabbalistic Astrology" and his Kabbalistic translation of the Biblical Book "Habakkuk" in 3:2-4 led me to a 'seeing' of mutual validation of The Rabbis work and that of Rudhyars interpretations and theories surrounding these symbols.
The Rabbi re-translated "Habakkuk" 3: 2-4 to read: "...It shall become known by means of the years. God shall come from [the direction of] Capricorn-Aquarius, And the Holy One from [the direction of] Mount Paran [Sinai] Selah. And the Moon, like the Sun, will be rays at His side. And therein will lie the secret of His power."
When I constructed a Matrix of a Grand Cross utilizing Capricorn 30*/Aquarius 01* as the origin it led to 8 symbols which represent the Who, Where-To, How and Why of humankinds existence...the "seed" of the previous cycle of creation is represented by the signs Cap. Cancer, Libra and Aries in the thirtieth degrees...and the resultant current creation that arose from those seeds of that previous cycle is represented by the first degrees of the signs Aquarius, Leo, Scorpio and Taurus...
Check it out...I believe that the majority of you will see it as I do.
Now try it with a Pentagram or Magen David [Grand Sextile] or any Matrix from 2 to 12 points ...or more, I think it works!

...[note: I had the degrees for the above mentioned signs in the wrong order and have corrected it....it's the 30th degree of the Cardinal signs and the 1st degree of the Fixed signs]
_________________
You are a Divine expression of the Universe.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Nativities & General Astrology All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated