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solar return ascedant conjuct cusp 6 of natal chart??
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san



Joined: 25 Oct 2005
Posts: 17

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:32 pm    Post subject: solar return ascedant conjuct cusp 6 of natal chart?? Reply with quote

need to know how to interpret this:

Solar ascedant is Libra for 2009 (my birthday is just about 12 day's) and he falls in my natal 5th house BUT i'm worry a little because he is on the last degree of my natal 5th house?? Shocked How to interpret this ?

What I would like to have this year is some more love Laughing and maybe start nice relationschip!! Lala Happy I had very bad years.. in love..so i hope this one will bring me someone to love and ... a lot of baby's Leery

my solaar chart:
http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?cid=hhufileAwpxnE-u1217945429&lang=e&gm=a1&nhor=4&nho2=4&btyp=32&mth=gw&sday=31&smon=12&syr=2009&hsy=-1&zod=&orbp=&rs=0&ast=

natal chart:
http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?cid=hhufileAwpxnE-u1217945429&lang=e&gm=a1&nhor=4&nho2=4&btyp=2&mth=gw&sday=31&smon=12&syr=2009&hsy=-1&zod=&orbp=&rs=0&ast=
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Tom
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Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi San,

I wrote something yesterday, realized I misunderstood your post and deleted it. For some reason I could not get back on last night, so here is what I should have said:

Solar returns aren't that simple. We can't take a single instance such as you've mentioned and draw a conclusion. A good introduction to the complexities and various techniques of returns can be found in Tony Louis' recent book Forecasting with Solar Returns. What follows is a broad introduction to J.B. Morin's methods. There are other ways to do this.

In order to predict accurately the natal chart must be delineated first, particularly the part we're asking about, in this case the ASC. The solar return must be delineated separately, particularly the part we're asking about, in this case the 6th house. Then we put them together.

Also the return should be understood in the following context: the natal chart shows the"promise" or potential of the life. The return tells us what parts, if any, of that potential will be realized in the return year in question. In other words, unless your chart shows great wealth, having Jupiter on the second house cusp in the return will not make you rich, at least that's the theory.

So the short answer to your question is this, unless your natal chart shows some connection between houses one and six, the chances are not much will happen in this area this year. That being said, we can't underestimate the fact that the natal ASC degree fell very close to the 6th cusp (I would disregard any 5th house meanings since the ASC is so close to the cusp of the 6th unless the degree of the return 6th is somehow trine to the degree of the natal ASC). The 6th has to do with servants (people you hire), illness or disease, pets or other small animals, and in modern astrology it has to do with the work you do. The ASC is you, so these things may be brought together this year, but which ones? WIll you get a dog or get sick, have trouble with your automechanic or all three? That depends on the condition of the sixth, any planets that might be in it in the nativity and return, and the rulers. The same is said for the nativity.

Look to the natal chart. Are there aspects between the rulers of the 1st and 6th? Is the aspect soft or hard? Lates take a simple example. The ruler of the 1st is square the ruler of the 6th in the nativity. This shows the potential for difficulties with tradesman. That would be determined by the planets involved. So with the natal ASC on the return 6th, this is the year you could have problems with tradesmen. This placement is not enough to make that prediction, however. You have to look at the respective rulers and any occupants of the houses in both charts and see what they are doing together, if anything.

Solar Returns are a lot of work, but the effort is usually repaid.

Tom
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san



Joined: 25 Oct 2005
Posts: 17

Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tom,

Thank you very much for your vast answer!!
I know that solar returns are not that simple and i also know that all the "potentials" of our life's are allredy writen in the natal chart. The only thing that i did't know for sure is how we interpret it when the planet or asc/dsc ic/mc from Solar return chart falls at the last degrees or is close to the cusp of another house in natal.
So, now i know that 6th house is more current for this year (natal 6th has not good aspects with asc in natal ..Mercury lord of asc make hard aspect to uranus in 6)) i'm wondering what do you think about
relocatation of change my Solar Return location Laughing
Schould i relocate?
We cannot change the planetary positions, but we can change their house positions and the orientation of the Solar Return chart by moving east or west ..what do you think?

Thanks a lot!! Very Happy
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Tom
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Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Relocation for a solar return is one of those debatable subjects. There is no definitive answer. For years I did returns for the location of the birthplace regardless of the native's location at the time of the return. When I began to study Morin, I began to use the location at the time of the return. They both seem to work. You have to go pretty far from the birthplace in order to get a significant change. For example I recently looked at Caroline Kennedy's solar return and used her current permanent location which is the same as her birthplace, New York City. Then someone told me she spent her birthday at Hyannis Port at the Kennedy compound on Cape Cod, which is about 250 miles north of NYC by car. The difference in charts was insignificant.

Tom
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yuzuru



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
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Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But you should be aware that, the practice of solar returns is pretty old, way before MOrin, and it always used the birth location.

And that many important astrologers nowadays, which work within the tradition, like Steven Birchfield, Zoller, Ben Dykes, Dr H, Frawley, they all use the birth place to cast solar returns.
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###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1380

Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
And that many important astrologers nowadays, which work within the tradition, like Steven Birchfield, Zoller, Ben Dykes, Dr H, Frawley, they all use the birth place to cast solar returns.

At the ordering information for solar return readings at bendykes.com you will find the following:

Quote:
If your most recent birthday was more than 6 months ago, he will base them on your next birthday, provided you know what city you will be in within 24-48 hours of that date.  Without certainty about your location, an accurate solar return cannot be cast. [The emphasis is in the original.]


For what it's worth, I disagree very strongly with his last sentence. I'm thinking I once read that Zoller relocates, but I could easily be confused about that. In any case, I'm most interested in what I've seen, thought and decided. I've been drawn to solar & lunar returns for a few years now and have spent quite a bit of time working with them. I've had a major switch: In past discussions here I favored the current location – the place one currently calls home and that contains the belongings, routines and concerns of everyday life. But I've been finding the clearest and strongest indications through planetary house placements and rulerships using the natal location. But that which I've resisted as wishy-washy does seem to apply: they both work, more or less . I live about 950 miles from my birth location so I do usually get significantly different return charts. I've spent quite a bit of time comparing past solar and lunar returns for major events in my life. I don't have as much experience with the charts of others, so there is danger of what one sees in one's own chart.

What I've decided is that one should start with the natal location. Then, for more info or to see what comes into focus or weakens, one can switch to the current location. But I still would favor a relocated residence and not some place a person flies off to for a couple days to soak up some sun, margaritas and favorable planetary rays. For me such an approach demonstrates too much modern age cleverness, self-assuredness and excessive belief in the ability to arrange favorable outcomes by one's actions. People say such birthday travels work for them and influence the following year, but compared to what? If They don't stay home for the return, we can't have those results to compare with.

In the last paragraph I jokingly mentioned planetary rays. But this is undoubtedly underlies the question of return locality: Is it a matter of planetary rays directly affecting a physical location and human body located there, or the influence of a moment in time in that location? Some years ago at a certain moment a wee one was born in that tiny town in the middle of nowhere (he now hovers around Skyscript). The way I see it, that moment of time in that small town is always connected to him and part of him. That event is his event, and it only happened in one place. It's also hard to imagine cycles completing and starting anew with shifting locations. For it to be a true and complete return or revolution – a return to origin – it would seem to be necessary to retain a non-shifting location. How could it be possible to start something over here and then say it finishes one cycle and starts another over there? If an event – a localized moment – occurred in one location, then it seems natural and most accurate to say that it can only complete a cycle in the same location.

But check with me 6 months from now. Confused
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yuzuru



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Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, Kirk, thanks for the correction

Of course, there is always the problem that astrologers are always changing their mind.... For Frawley, by example, I based my statement on tapes of his course on natal astrology. By the time he writes his book, who knows ?

I have known many people who say, like you Kirk, that they got better predictions with the place of location. I do not dispute this. But I have seen that people, when they donīt have a location for a year (e.g. when doing a chart for Obama) they will use the default chart of birth.

What I REALLY didnīt like in Anthony Louis book, to the point that I considered a waste of money, was the position of "everything works". Natal locations works, but relocation too. You donīt need to correct for precession, but corrected charts works too. By the way, conversed solar returns also work. Hmmmm.... smells like hindsight to me.

I donīt claim that, if one has to work, the other doesnīt. But the approach to "every thing works" is often said when astrologers donīt have enought tools to see, without hindsight, which chart is better. In prediction, using a whole set of charts is usually a good way to get reaaaaal confused.

e.g. Letīs suppose that all the solar returns charts above are used. Letīs assume the native will marry. Itīs really likely that all of this charts will show marriage in different ways ? I think it is possible, but not likely. I have, in the past, tested the method of some modern astrologers, who use a profusion of methods: solar returns, solar returns with precession, lunar returns, solar months, return to the solar-moon natal arc, etc.

It took a huge amount of time, and each chart showed a different thing.

So, people like to bicker in forums about themes like this, reversing fortuna, etc, but I think we would need first to agree in which methodology would be the best, which are the results we are trying to find, and which are the criteria to judge if a chart "worked better" to a natal vs a relocated location.

Best regards
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epurdue



Joined: 14 Nov 2007
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Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the record, Zoller relocates his Solar Returns - at least according to his course.
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Tom
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Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frawley said that the return cast for the birth place shows all the potential for the year. A return cast for other locations shows the potential for that place alone. This is an interesting concept, but I don't have any examples. The biggest problem with using the location is that solar returns are a predictive technique. If we don't know where the native will be at the time of the return, we cant' predict anything until after the return and that is an inconvenience to say the least.

It's been long assumed that solar returns were invented by the medieval Arab astrologers, but Hand claims some Greek writings make clear references to the technique.

Morin believed that somehow the planetary influences were infused into the native at birth and so again each year. Obviously one cannot receive the return planetary "influx" at his birthplace if he is elsewhere. That's the logic anyway. I have a hard time with that, but that doesn't mean casting the chart for the location of the return is wrong. Morin gives the rather spectacular examples of King Gustav Adolphus in the year of his death. He uses the location of the solar and lunar returns prior to death which are both different from the birthplace. You will do many charts over a period of many years, and never see the precision that is in these charts.

Tom
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yuzuru



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
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Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I recall that in the astrology x-files a quote about how valens ( I think) would cast a solar return. It was very different of what we would consider a solar return, but anyway it was one of the probable sources of Abu Mashar and others.

First we have a problem of principles... if Morin talks about "infusion" in hiw own vision of the cosmos, the ancients usually use the word "renovation of the nativity". To me it is like the nativity is unfounding itself in time.

Other possibility to the divergence is that Morin and others didnīt use most of the techniques of that time: sect, profection, firdaria, direction throught terms, etc. The profections seemed to be an essencial tool to understand the Solar return in ealier days. Maybe the rejection of these techniques had his take in the changing of location, as most of them look directly into the natal chart, and when you are using only the solar return you are more likely to concentrate in where the native is right now.
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Tom
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Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to clarify Morin's reasoning, He would not use the return without reference to the nativity. He believed an appropriate return would bring out the promise of the natal chart or hinder it. It did not act alone.

As for profections, firdaria etc, he would have included them in his list of "Arab fantasies." They did not occur in nature, therefore, they were of no value to astrology. We can quibble with this if we want. I only offer it by way of explanation. This is consistent with his view of the "influx" of planetary influences to the native. He saw it as a natural event, i.e. it occurred in nature. Contemporary astrologers would not accept this. I don't. However the idea of keeping things simple rather than piling on technique after technique has merit, if the astrologer has the necessary skill. I've seen very accurate delineations with profections and firdaria though.

Tom
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dadsnook



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Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:50 pm    Post subject: Natal vs current location in solar returns Reply with quote

Hello, I'm new to this list. I've studied and practiced astrology since 1971 and my primary interest area has been solar and lunar returns for the past three decades.

I have observed that the natal chart always has to be referred to as it represents the potential that can be activated and built upon in our lifetime. When one relocates for a period of time, that new location does seem to work well for interpretive purposes IF that place has been lived in for a period of time such that the native identifies with that area and makes their home there.

As to both the natal and relocation area as having relevance, I have often found that a relocated place has chart angle ties to the natal place. One can look at the chart of Yoko Ono, born in Tokyo, Japan and now living in New York City to see the linkages. One might say that a relocation tends to permit us to differently express aspects of our natal chart that were not so likely to occur if we stayed in our birth area. It is probably this phenomena that accounts for the debate as to which location is primary.

I should point out that my perspectives on this topic are shaped by the use of precession-corrected solar returns, as well as more-typical Sidereal techniques. I emphasize angularity in charts, do not generally use signs except for natal and mundane work, and work extensively with progressed daily angles charts based on the Sidereal PSSR techniques. It's great to join and participate in this list. Dave
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Julie K



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Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 3:36 am    Post subject: Solar Returns Reply with quote

All,

Interesting posts indeed. I have relocated Latitudinally 5 degrees approx. North and Longitudinally 2 degrees East. I look at both locations for my Solar Returns. There is not too much difference.

Back in Ancient times the native may not have travelled great distances as we do today. A lifetime may be spent in one small village. Air travel as we know it was unkown. So my question is: This would surely influence the Ancient Astrologers when looking at locations in Solar Returns? This influence would undoubtedy color/show up in their work - how many clients would re-locate as we do today.

As part of my imediate family live overseas it seems logical to use the relocation for Solar Returns when life is so different in the Northern Hemisphere and they had to adapt to new things in many areas of life.Transport, languages, friends, work, school egs. Longer daylight hours in summer, shorter daylight hours in winter months.

sunflower Very Happy
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Tom
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Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Back in Ancient times the native may not have travelled great distances as we do today. A lifetime may be spent in one small village.


This is often cited and it is difficult to deny. My own experience validates it. I've travelled far more than my parents ever did, and my grandmother lived to age 88 and except for a few day trips to New York City, I don't think she ever left New Jersey much less visited a foreign country. In that spirit I offer this quote:


Quote:
"About this matter, the old astrologers settled absolutely nothing.; but in common with them, the moderns by tradition only, always erect the figure of the revolution for the latitude of the natal place; but I erect it for the latitude of the place in which the native is found at the very moment of the revolution. And this difficulty, since it is one of the greatest importance in astrology, on account of the travels of a man, by which now and then he is transferred to places distant from his natal place by a sixth or a fourth or even by a whole half of the circle of the earth, and in which places he is found at the time of the revolution, or he may spend his whole life there. "



The above is from book 23 of Astrologia Gallica written by Morin deVillefranche who died in 1656. Apparently in his circles folks were beginning to move around a bit during the 17th century. I'm afraid, that like house systems, this is one of those topics that will never be settled.

Tom
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missvirgo



Joined: 03 Feb 2007
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Location: usa

Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello everyone,
Since I live very far away from my birth place I just wanted to post my 2006 SR for my current location and my birth location just to show my mom's passing away in May 5, 2007.
In 2006 the Virgo, Pisces Eclipses were contacting my personal planets in the 2-8 axis and I knew that there was going to be death in my family and sadly my mom passed away and she was a Piscean with Natal sun at 15deg Pisces.
My 2006 SR had a Lunar Eclipse on it which I guess signifies endings? and also had Pluto conjunct an angle ( the Asc in current location and Desc in birth location)
My birth location SR below


My current location SR
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