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Saturn in the 11th House - Traditional Meaning?
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juliana_angelova



Joined: 13 Apr 2008
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Location: Bulgaria

Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:19 am    Post subject: Saturn in the 11th House - Traditional Meaning? Reply with quote

Could anyone with more knowledge on traditional astrology help me with the meaning of “Saturn in the 11th house”? I know that traditional astrologers considered this to be Saturn’s own house but that’s as far as my knowledge goes. I am asking this because I’m tired of modern astrology’s reference to friendship, groups and social issues, which is beginning to sound like “glossing over” to me.

I have Saturn in the 11th house, in a fixed sign (Taurus) and in a mutual reception with my 7th-house Capricorn Venus, which is conjunct my Capricorn Sun in the same house. If anyone cares to explain Saturn to me, I will try to figure out the rest.

Does it deny the realization of one’s deepest hopes and wishes or does it just delay that? That is the question.

I have trouble using the ImageShack service, so I cannot upload my chart. Even if you could give me some general answers, that would be fine.

Thank you in advance for any information you may provide.

Best regards
Yuliana Angelova
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Papretis



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
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Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Saturn in the 11th House - Traditional Meaning? Reply with quote

juliana_angelova wrote:
I know that traditional astrologers considered this to be Saturn’s own house but that’s as far as my knowledge goes.

This certainly is not the case. Saturn has no connection to the 11th house, "the house of Good Spirit", in traditional astrology, it's Jupiter who rejoices here.

The 11th house signifies especially those who help you in climbing to the MC, to the position of status and the king. The 3rd house signifies the closest friends who are more like siblings for you. Saturn in the 11th house could signify friends and supporters who are older, and realistic and serious by nature. Because the 11th house is the house of hopes and aspirations, Saturn there might signify that your hopes are quite sober and down-to-earth and you're not one of those who "build castles from the clouds". You may be quite conservative and careful in your dreams, hopes and aspirations.

Of course it's all about the house system you use. More and more traditional astrologers seem to turn (at least partly) to the whole sign houses - I'm personally quite interested in the approach where the cusps are not the beginning points but the high points of the houses, "stakes of the tents", as Ben Dykes suggests in the Introduction to his Sahl/Masha'allah translations. In India they call this house system "Sripati houses" and it's been used along the whole sign houses since times immemorial. In that system the border between two houses is in the midpoint of their cusps.
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Tom
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Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This and the post below are both asking for traditional information in the general nativities section. This is OK and gives the moderns a chance to write their views. However, I think this question in particular would be better suited for the Traditional Forum, but I leave that up to the moderators of this Forum and the authors of the posts.

To get a good look at how Saturn in the 11th is delineated in the tradition, go to the traditional forum and read Steven Birchfield's posts in Mystery Chart No. 17 and Mystery Chart No. 17 Revealed. The subject chart has Saturn in Leo in the 11th. You'll see that in the tradition, the answer to your question is not so simple.

For the record, Saturn joys in the 12th, and in the Chaldean order of the planets rules the 1st structure and 8th (destruction). Jupiter joys in the 11th.

The 11th is the house of friends as well as gifts from the King (or government or employer. It is the 2nd of the 10th). See Deb's book on houses for a complete picture.
Tom
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juliana_angelova



Joined: 13 Apr 2008
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Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you very much for your answer, Papretis.

Tom, I am really sorry for posting my question in the wrong section. I am fairly new to this forum, so I hope that I will be excused. I will follow your advice and read the threads you recommended.

I wish you both a nice day!

Yuliana
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Tom
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Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Yuliana,

No apology necessary. People sometimes put traditional questions here because they also want modern input. That's a good idea because we have the traditional forum so that we don't have to discuss modern ideas. It is strictly traditional. The choice as always is yours.

Please stop by the traditional forum when you can; we'd love to hear from you.

Tom
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Labalance



Joined: 02 Oct 2006
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Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Papretis,

I thought the 11th signified friends. How would you differ the friends of the 11th from the friends of the third. I see that you say the friends of the third are more like siblings, are the friends of the 11th more distant?
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PFN



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Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Labalance wrote:
Papretis,

I thought the 11th signified friends. How would you differ the friends of the 11th from the friends of the third. I see that you say the friends of the third are more like siblings, are the friends of the 11th more distant?


A problem I had as well. In a horary I cast I wanted to know if someone I knew would leave the hospital alive or not (turned out he died). I did not know how to interpret the chart simply because I could not understand clearly the difference between 11th and 3rd house, so I could not be sure what was his significator. The axis 5th-11th would speak of a friend to me, but I got even more confused cause he was no friend of mine, only someone I knew and that came to my house sometimes. The 3rd-9th axis is not helpfull as well, since I do not see their correlation (whistle I can at least see some between 5th-11th, although stretching things a little).

Anyway, is the 11th related to friends or not? Also, I've noticed in my practice that the closest friends are better described by 7th house rather than 11th (at least is common to see the AC of a friend being the DC of the other, or planets that correlates, if you have natal charts, but in a horary I would never have assigned 7th house to someone we call a friend solely).

What bugs me is that the relationships from the 3rd are the ones that seem superficial (brothers and sisters are only a condition, as much as neighbours) and you could happen to be a close friend of your brother or sister, but the fact of being it does not creat the bond. But, then again, 11th house are not only friends, but it seems to be co-workers, people that helps you (or that complicate your life), professionaly or not, a thing that would seem strange for our notion of friendship nowadays.

If anyone could shed a light on a concrete way to determine the function of these houses, would be appreciated... still I'm inclined to think of the 3rd as being only those relations you are bound to have, like a neighbour, a brother and sister... if you think about a distant relative would that be 9th house? So what about a co-worker that is nothing more than that, he is not a servant, but not a friend, less yet someone that helps you to climb to the 10th (or not, if inept). Some of the less clear houses is definitly the 3rd and 11th in my opinion (at least the 12th is meant to be like that).

Another thing that complicates it is that the 11th is a social house, and the 3rd not. Meaning that some of our social relationships could be "deeper" than our private ones.
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###



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Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some thoughts, ramblings and babblings:

To begin with, I personally make a clear distinction between friends and acquaintances. To me it's a critical distinction. I guess I'm old school. 'Friend' is used very easily now, especially here in the US, but other countries seem to be following. It's similar to the softening of the French vous/tu and German Sie/du distinction since WW II, which has happened in other languages, also.

I'm still fumbling around with horary, but I would tend to use the 7th house in asking my own question about a 'friend' because to me that person is in a close relationship with me. But if someone came to me and wanted me to do a horary reading concerning their 'friend' I would be in a more difficult spot. I would have to get an idea of just how close they were to each other. The other option for me would be the 11th house simply because it's traditionally used and the idea of the 3rd is quite recent for me and still an unsure fit. But I realize I may be incorrectly using the 7th here.

The 3rd and 11th houses have in common the fact that they sextile the Ascendant, therefore they can help, get along with or relate to the horary querent or chart native in a natal chart. The 11th is above the horizon and is succedent to the 10th. Planets rising in the east to the mid-heaven pass through it. Therefore it's a helpful and outwardly-oriented house in relation to the 1st. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that friends can be said to help us and take us out of ourselves and onto a larger stage through shared conversation and activities. Friends can also help us get jobs, make important new contacts, etc. But mere acquaintances can also provide us with the same new opportunities – still 11th house. Jupiter having his joy in the 11th indicates benefits and increase. So it looks like the 11th for friends and helpful acquaintances, people we are actively involved with or who provide us with assistance, opportunities and so forth.

The 3rd house is beneath the horizon and so would seem to be less actively involved in our outwardly-oriented lives. Just as siblings are given to us without our consent (!), so are people we deal with daily as neighbors, clerks at the neighborhood grocery store and frequent co-passengers at the corner bus stop. Over time they can become acquaintances we talk to and who know a bit about us and our lives. They definitely are a part of our life as acquaintances, but are yet a long way from being friends or playing an active role in our life. So the 3rd house feels more like people we are somehow thrown together with and who become a part of our daily life. The swift-moving Moon has her joy here and she does have traditional connections with the daily activities of messages, contacts, travel and trade. All those activities often or usually involve more superficial contacts and acquaintances.

I think making the friend/acquaintance distinction does help. A useful suggestion for natal charts comes from A. J. Pearce's Text-Book of Astrology. p. 170:

The eleventh house of a nativity is believed to be symbolical of friends, the seventh of open enemies, and the twelfth of secret foes. This notion, so far as it relates to nativities, is very doubtful. The fact is that persons born when the Sun or Moon is afflicted usually meet with many enemies, and some mischief from them; whereas, those who are so fortunate as to be born when the Sun and Moon are happily configurated with the benefics, find troops of friends, and few enemies. In like manner, persons born when an ascending planet or planets meet with cross aspects are involved in misunderstandings, disputes, and quarrels which may be none of their seeking ...

[p. 171] Fortunate planets ascending or culminating bring numerous friends. The signs containing the fortunes, or the angles in which they are located, will show in what part of the world the native will meet with the greatest number of friends who will advance his interests. The signs or angles containing the infortunes will show the parts of the world wherein the native would be likely to meet with the most inveterate opposition from public and private enemies.


He mentions aspects to natal 1st house planets, but he doesn't mention aspects to the ASC-DESC axis. I'm sure we can safely add them.
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Tara



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Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 11th house is associated with friends who come together around a common goal or purpose. For example, I belong to a book club and am also a member of a Buddhist centre and an astrological association, all of which are 11th house phenomena. The 11th house speaks to our sense of belonging to a community of like-minded friends. It's not just a party, that's the 5th house.

To my way of thinking, the 11th also signifies your social circle vs. the one-to-one relationship you have with your closest friends. I too would use the 7th house to signify very close friends, when you're focusing on that one relationship. It's a me/you relationship whereas the 11th is a we relationship.

Tara
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Labalance



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Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to be a pain about this question: But what about friends that you have a bond with but don't see very often? I have several friends across the world that I have a connection too (for want of a better word, I mean an emotional attachment too) who I don't talk to very often (Life you know) but when we see each other it's as if we have never been separated. I guess that would be the seventh? These are both men and women and I've known all of them for years.
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Papretis



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Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Labalance wrote:
Just to be a pain about this question: But what about friends that you have a bond with but don't see very often? I have several friends across the world that I have a connection too (for want of a better word, I mean an emotional attachment too) who I don't talk to very often (Life you know) but when we see each other it's as if we have never been separated. I guess that would be the seventh? These are both men and women and I've known all of them for years.

I'm a bit uncomfortable about this idea of putting friends into the 7th house of open enemies. The marriage partner as an open enemy... I understand that somehow Tongue Out , but friends?

I too have friends that I don't see very often but I still consider them close and important people. I see them belonging to the 11th house. Then I have a few close workmates with whom I've spent my daily tea breaks for several years, and they definitely know more about me than many of my friends, because they see me on the daily basis and we're used to talk quite freely. They belong to the 3rd house of daily routine connections and that's verified by transits. (Colleagues are in a certain way like your siblings - the boss is like "the parent" for all of you and you may even compete for his/her attention).

So it's not easy to separate the 3rd and the 11th house people by ranking the closeness or intensity of the relationship. How could I compare my relationship with my brothers to that with my friends? They are located in different sections, both important.


Last edited by Papretis on Thu Jan 08, 2009 5:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Tom
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Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm a bit uncomfortable about this idea of putting friends into the 7th house of open enemies. The marriage partner as an open enemy... I understand that somehow Tongue Out , but friends?


As an FYI, The Hellenistic Greeks used the 7th for the spouse (one's opposite) and the 10th for the condition of the marriage. They were merged during the middle ages according to Schmidt.

The 11th has always been friends and usually close friends, which are a pleasure and it is fitting that that the opposite axis is the 5th.

The 7th is a bit odd with the spouse, divorce, lovers, open enemies (another middle ages invention), rivals, lawsuits, etc all coming under it's domain. I suppose the idea is that these people are intimately connected with the ascendant and what it represents. Sexual relationships are strained at times, - even the best of them, thus the opposition.

Deb states the 7th is all forms of intimate relationships. Friends can have deep relationships, but I have the feeling when she uses the word "intimate," she is referring to physical relationships, not deep relationships that are strictly on the emotional level.

The 11th, again according to Deb and others, is the "House of Good Fortune." It rules friends and friendships as those people benefit us as do other things associated with the 11th.

Tom
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###



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Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On page 44 of the revised edition of her book Deb writes:

Quote:
The 3rd house, like the 11th, also has a traditional association with friendship, because of the friendly sextile aspect which unites both of these houses to the ascendant. But the friends of the 3rd house are assumed to be personal and family-related, in keeping with the nature of the lower hemisphere. The 11th house, in the upper hemisphere, has a stronger connections with 'social' friendships.


She appears to be describing here an old, traditional meaning of the 3rd house where the closest personal relationships are 3rd house and not 11th. The social acquaintances would seem to be of the 11th house. On page 67, in the chapter 'House Rulerships in Practice', she says nothing about friendship and the 3rd – almost as if she rejects the idea. But I doubt she does. I remember her mentioning the 3rd and friendship in a forum post about a year or so ago.

It's seems almost rude to talk about Deb while she's gone. Confused
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Labalance



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Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Then it seems to me that those friends that are closest (in fact being like siblings makes sense to me) would be represented by the third. Thanks for hashing it out everyone!
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###



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Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But things are more confusing than they were before. As I pointed out, Deb makes a clear 3rd /11th house friendship distinction which makes a strong case for personal friends signified by the 3rd in traditional astrology, and then drops it. She doesn't mention the 3rd concerning friends later in the chapter where she more thoroughly discusses the house meanings. But in the 'House Rulership Index' under 'Friends' she lists “related: 3rd” & “unrelated: 11th”. So do they have to be related as family to be 3rd house friends? What else could she mean by 'related'? Within the quote that I gave above from the book is the statement “the friends of the 3rd house are assumed to be personal and family-related”. I was reading it as personal or family related, but maybe she does indeed mean “personal and family-related”. The whole issue is clear as mud, I tell you.

In any case, I get the impression that only some of the ancient guys used the 3rd for friendship and that it passed out of use quite a long time ago. In his Astrological Roots: The Hellenistic Legacy, p. 133 Joseph Crane writes about the 3rd house:

Quote:
This is the place of the Moon Goddess, and Moon is in her joy here. Later astrologers claim that the Third concerns lower mind and one's neighborhood, but there is no evidence of this in the ancient tradition. Paulus and others mention the Third as the place for siblings. This idea is consistent with modern practice.

Valens and Firmicus regard the Third as a place of religion and of prophecy.


He continues discussing religion and prophecy for the 3rd, with no mention of friendship. And that's very odd, because when you go to the Paulus source as found in Late Classical Astrology: Paulus Alexandrinus and Olympiodorus (trans. Dorian Gieseler Greenbaum, ARHAT, 2001) you find the words 'friendship' and 'friends' on page 45 in the discussion of the 3rd house, whereas they never appear in the 11th house discussion on page 50.

In discussing the 11th on p. 136 Crane writes:

Quote:
Paulus says that good expectations as well as alliances and patronage are connected to the Eleventh. Modern astrologers, relating the Eleventh to friends and “hopes and wishes”, are consistent with ancient descriptions. [The next sentence is for Yuliana (are you still there?!)] Saturn here by day can achieve its ends; by night Saturn may show laziness and failure.


So if we start using the 3rd for friends we should probably keep in mind that the type of friends it indicates is unclear and that we're following what seems to have been a minority practice, or at least one that died out ages ago. So if we want to stay close to the tradition the 11th house looks like the best bet. But this being the General Astrology forum, free from traditional restraints, we can believe, say and do whatever we want with a clear conscience and a whole lot of freedom. Thumbs up

...................................................................................................

Here's the full 3rd house discussion on p. 45 of the Greenbaum translation of the Paulus text:

Quote:
The third from the Horoskopos is able to procure goods. It also signifies the reckoning about brothers. It is called Goddess, Place of the Moon and Good Decline. And it was allotted the reckoning concerning friendship or patronage, but sometimes comes to be responsible for living abroad, because it has happened to be the diameter of the zoidion concerning gods which signified the reckoning about living abroad. In this zoidion the Moon, alone among all the stars, rejoices. Whenever benefic stars of the proper sect have dealings here, they point out an increase of life and success in acquiring property, and the reckoning about brothers is helpful and more sympathetic. And they make for many friends, being well-known, and having many brothers, and they provide favors or gifts from friends and brothers. But when malefic stars happen to be on this place, they bring about the opposite of these things.


So it looks like the 3rd brings helpful friends just as much as the 11th. There is no mention of these friends being related by family.
...................................................................................................

Unrelated – but very interesting – concerning the 3rd house is the talk of procurement of goods. It's not often we see a link between the movable goods of the 2nd house and the ownership of land and buildings of the 4th. We've been happily proceeding with 3rd house emails and telephone calls separating our money and possessions from our house and land. Do you think Mr. Lilly ever thought of this?

But back to friends: I'm not sure now whether to assign them to the 11th or 3rd, or whether I need to divide them into groups of 'close and personal ' and 'social acquaintances' in order to put them in the right house. I'm just glad to have a couple of them.

...................................................................................................

Here's more for Yuliana, who is now probably stunned by what can happen to a simple question. From Abu 'Ali Al-Khayyat: The Judgments of Nativities (trans. James H. Holden.), p. 74:

Quote:
Saturn [in the 11th], anxiety and pain from friends, hindrance of things wished for.

So there's an answer for you from the early 9th century. It sounds like yours is a diurnal [day] chart, so that eases up on the negative effects quite a bit. Other factors also have to be considered. It's probably safe to say that you will have setbacks, delays and disappointments concerning wishes and friends, but that doesn't mean all is lost or denied you! It simply means setback, delays and disappointments.
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