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Saturn Return

 
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Night Sky



Joined: 13 Sep 2008
Posts: 127

Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:44 am    Post subject: Saturn Return Reply with quote

Please have a look at my Saturn Return. I would like to look at that intercepted 5th house cluster.

And perhaps the meaning of 6th ruling Jupiter on the Ascendant.


http://s65.photobucket.com/albums/h202/denismaterna/Astrology/?action=view&current=astro_2gw_133_saturn_return18485261.gif

This chart has quite a number of powerful aspects. But I am coming to the conclusion that the 5th house and Scorpio planets are by far the strongest most important influence in this chart.


Please comment. thanks
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PFN



Joined: 28 Dec 2008
Posts: 393
Location: Ouro Preto, Brasil

Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Were you born on 18 Nov 1983, 1:48 Am?

If this info is correct, then we could proceed to analyse the chart implications in the light of the natal chart. I do not think that analising a return solely based on the Return chart will help.
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Tom
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
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Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try using the solar return as well. In other words, look at what Saturn indicates in the nativity, where it is, what houses it rules, etc. and what all that means to the native. If Saturn represents the career, the return could indicate something in relation to the career. Then look at the solar return to see what, if anything Saturn was doing at that time. If Saturn is active in the SR relate that to the nativity. How is the potential of the nativity coming out in this SR? If Saturn was close (i.e. within a few degrees) of its return place this chart may be very important to the year. Then look at the Saturn return and how it impacts the solar return. With some effort, a story or theme may emerge that will play out this year.

Using the Saturn return or solar return by itself, with only general references to the nativity is no different than using transits. Transits have value, but they are not at the top of the predictive hierarchy.

Tom
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Night Sky



Joined: 13 Sep 2008
Posts: 127

Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, 1:46 am actually. To be precise.

The Saturn Return is as exact as i could make it, down to the second of the degree. 09 22 09 of Tropical Scorpio.

Thanks for the advice Tom, I hadnīt considered Solar Return, but then Solar Return is measured only for one year, while Saturn is the course of 29 years isnīt it.

I am looking at the Saturn return in order to gain some fresh information regarding career path. And think I have garnered quite a bit so far.

Natal Saturn is 2nd house with Capricorn on 5th cusp. The 2013 Saturn Return is in the 5th house with 5th ruler conjunct both POF and N Node. Scorpio ruler Mars is in 2nd house. With Pluto in a tight Sextile to Saturn there is (modern) mutual reception for this Saturn with the 6th house.


In the Return Chart also there is a high degree of accidental dignity for Mercury, Venus, Mars and Jupiter, with Saturn fairly dignified also.

The focus is simply a strong emphasis on the 5th house. I think thatīs the focus.
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Tom
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Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Thanks for the advice Tom, I hadnīt considered Solar Return, but then Solar Return is measured only for one year, while Saturn is the course of 29 years isn't it?


I forgot momentarily that I was writing on the General Nativities Forum and not on the Traditional Forum and therefore, I should have been more clear. I'm sorry about that. I approach the chart from a traditional viewpoint. You will not find the expression "Saturn return" in a traditional text. Your remarks are in line with contemporary astrological thinking, i.e. the Saturn return has an effect for 29 years or is instrumental in a 29 year cycle. Without respect to the validity or lack of validity of any method, I'll explain my viewpoint, and then you may do with it as you see fit.

Moderns and traditionalists alike agree on the importance of the nativity and its relation to subsequent events. Moderns, however, place a great deal of importance of transits for predictive events whereas traditionalists don't grant them as much importance. They would be low man on the predictive totem pole.

I lean towards the predictive hierarchy of Jean Baptiste Morin. The nativity shows us all the promise or potential of the chart. Primary directions (or secondary progressions, if the astrologer prefers) shows us the broad outlines of when and how that promise will be realized. Solar returns pinpoint the release of potential to the year, and then lunar returns lend more precision.

Morin agrees that other planetary returns are important, but they are subordinate to the solar return as all planets are subordinate to the Sun in importance. However, they are important precisely because they are different from the Sun. Each planet has its individual nature, and therefore, the return of a planet to its natal position is a matter of importance, and reveals itself via the nature of the returning planet. Couple that event with the return of the Sun, and the result is of exceptional importance. However, under no circumstances may the nativity be ignored.

Looking at things this way, a particular Saturn return could influence more than just the next 29 years, or it may pass without much notice. I've had two Saturn returns, and neither one coincided with anything spectacular or even memorable. All the "putting down roots" stuff happened several years earlier or later.

Of course no one is required to accept Morin or anyone else on this or other related issues. However, he does provide an intelligent structure of astrology that is not too difficult to put into practice, and as an aid to orderly thinking, I recommend him.

If we look at the Saturn return as the moderns do, it is little more than a transit to a natal position, and may or may not be coincident with major events. Some people have unforgettable Saturn returns. Others are like mine.

From this you can see there is no one way to practice astrology. I think the real key to success is consistency: apply a set of techniques in an orderly manner. Keep it simple by eliminating excess "noise." Bi-quintiles of Chiron to unnamed asteroids during your Juno return, cannot, by themselves, predict major life events. Don't clutter your thinking with them. For your Saturn return concentrate on the meaning of Saturn in your natal chart. That is what is being triggered. The rest is secondary in importance or less.

Good luck.

Tom

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Night Sky



Joined: 13 Sep 2008
Posts: 127

Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom, thank you,

Everything you have said here, I am in complete accordance with you on.

I donīt see how my initial question is out of line with that, maybe just a little unspecific.

I take the planets transits and returns to symbolise tree rings on the original seed, which is the natal chart. The seed tells you what the tree is. But conditions of growth are garnered from the environment, (Jupiter) as are the conditions which lend to life, (ego) symbolised by the Sun as are the conditions which are symbolised by Saturn... which are a different type of growth, and one which stretches out for a longer time and has effects which relate, as you have said, as morin has said to the natal position.

I find no contradiction in this, if you understand my metaphor right. (Mercury is retrograde today, and I am hoping that either I am not mistaken or my writing is not misleading what I mean).


I found it Enlightening to look at the Saturn Return chart for 2013. Natally I have Capricorn in 5th house with Saturn in second. The Saturn Return: Saturn in 5th with dispositor Mars in 2nd.

Astrology is clearly a code, which on its own doesnīt make mistakes. My idea with this chart was not to predict anything, just to see where the focus is. I would be happy if nothing were to happen on the day of Saturn return in 2013. But I would also be pleased if I knew that I was on the right track too.

For events, of course you look at the progressions and Solar Arc, you look at present transits, and you look at syzygy too.

-------------------------------------------------
Mercury Rx; I reserve the right to edit this
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Tom
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Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

Your position doesn't contradict anything. My point was that most moderns look at the planetary returns as part of cycles. Saturn takes 29 years to return therefore that Saturn return effects the native for 29 years until Saturn's next return. Jupiter takes 12 years to complete a cycle so the Jupiter cycle has a 12 year effect. This is different not necessarily contradictory from the traditional view. If we accept this viewpoint, the Saturn return would be the most powerful as it rules for the longest period of time.

The above does not necessarily contradict the traditional viewpoint as it is different from it. Morin, to keep to our example, looked at the solar return as the most powerful because the Sun's effects were universal and occurred the most frequently. The Sun chronicled years. Years are how we measure our lives. So Morin reasoned that the solar return was the most important event for prediction. Other returns had significance, in his viewpoint, but only insofar as what they indicated in the nativity. Therefore the Saturn return was a valid concept, but it only had the power to affect the things Saturn affected in the natal chart, whereas the Sun, being so powerful, could affect anything in the chart.

In my opinion these sorts of viewpoints are far more worthy of study than some of the statistical studies that astrologers wish to investigate. "Is there a statistically significant number of people with a similar placement that have something in common," can keep the statisticians busy and it is relatively easy to find a large sample. However looking for 29 year long effects of a Saturn return is far more challenging and rewarding, if it can be done at all.

Tom
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Night Sky



Joined: 13 Sep 2008
Posts: 127

Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Therefore the Saturn return was a valid concept, but it only had the power to affect the things Saturn affected in the natal chart, whereas the Sun, being so powerful, could affect anything in the chart.


I like what you said here Tom. But also think that these are quite important things in a way, the structures, buildings, traditions... To me at least it is worthy of further investigations.

Still wondering though.
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amzolt



Joined: 16 Apr 2009
Posts: 41
Location: Kettering, Ohio, USA

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
...you can see there is no one way to practice astrology. I think the real key to success is consistency: apply a set of techniques in an orderly manner. Keep it simple by eliminating excess "noise." Bi-quintiles of Chiron to unnamed asteroids during your Juno return, cannot, by themselves, predict major life events. Don't clutter your thinking with them. For your Saturn return concentrate on the meaning of Saturn in your natal chart. That is what is being triggered. The rest is secondary in importance or less.


Very good advice, Tom!! Thumbs up
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