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Which house would it belong to?
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ancientstars



Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 21

Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:32 pm    Post subject: Which house would it belong to? Reply with quote

Supposing the chart's MC is at 24'36 and a planet falls right on that degree which house does the planet belong to? 9th or 10th? Confused
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epurdue



Joined: 14 Nov 2007
Posts: 327

Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd say it was in the 9th but conjunct the MC.
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PFN



Joined: 28 Dec 2008
Posts: 393
Location: Ouro Preto, Brasil

Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you follow the understanding that the Cusp is the most sensitive degree of the house, that would be the 10th, and in it's strongest position, that would go at least for another 5 in the 9th, if you follow the 5 rule.
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JohnLi



Joined: 05 Oct 2007
Posts: 25
Location: Netherlands

Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:13 am    Post subject: exact calculations Reply with quote

Hello all,

The best way to make a final decision is to consider TWO things:
(a) calculate the houses and planets up to the very arc second. In this way you will always be able to decide where it actually resides. I have done many hundreds of horoscopes (1800) and I have never seen a planet exactly on the same arc second as the house cusp.

(b) take into account the direction of movement of the planet. If it is retrograde for some time, it will move directly into the 9th house and will be there for some time and it will indicate events coming from the 9th.

But also track that planet for many progressieve years. Maybe it will turn direct after some time. Then it will pass the MC by progression. These are the years that the native will experience many strong impulses from the 10th house and everything that is related to that.

The reverse may also occur: initially it is in the 10th, but after some time it turns retrograde and will pass the MC backward and travel into the 9th house. Also here there will be very strong influences on the 10th house matters on passing the MC, but they will pass away and make room for the 9th house matters.

Of course an exact calculation up to the very arc second is only possible with a rectified horoscope which synchronizes the events of life with directions of the houses/planets.

Best to you all..... Johan
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###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1380

Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Of course an exact calculation up to the very arc second is only possible with a rectified horoscope which synchronizes the events of life with directions of the houses/planets.


But there is absolutely no proof of a rectified chart being correct. You can only come up with a rectified chart that could be considered likely to be correct, or maybe even probably correct. Since there is inevitably an element of doubt introduced when calling it a rectified chart it seems kind of odd to give such authority to house cusps drawn to the second.

You also couldn't use just the city name for the location you would need to know the exact spot in the city for to-the-second cusps.
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JohnLi



Joined: 05 Oct 2007
Posts: 25
Location: Netherlands

Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It IS possible to have correct rectified horoscopes. I'm doing this for almost 30 years now with hundreds of clients.
Of course you will need the exact coordinates of the birthplace. This is the reason I am always asking clients to give the name of the street or hospital where they were born.
In the old days I used topographical maps where every street was indicated with coordinates to the second.
Nowadays there are nice internet programs to find these coordinates.
So that is a prerequisite.

Example: I predicted the death of Milosevic with ONE day difference, based on a corrected horoscope for evens in his life. You can still read this dutch article on my website. It is dutch, so you would need a translator program. I predicted this already in 2004.

http://home.hetnet.nl/~jligteneigen/Horoskopen/milosevic.html

With my hundreds of clients I always have a first check for events in their life and I correct the horoscope where possible. The events and the horoscope may not be different for more than FIVE days. Then for me it is a corrected horoscope.

Once you this corrected horoscope you can predict for years and years with a minimal time difference.

In that correction phase where you have a talk with the client, you will discover HOW a planet behaves, especially when a planet is near a cusp and it could be in another house.

I am talking of 30 years of experience here with the utmost precision in all calculations.

Regards.... John

[/quote]
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Julie K



Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Posts: 378
Location: Australia

Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Which house would it belong to? Reply with quote

ancientstars wrote:
Supposing the chart's MC is at 24'36 and a planet falls right on that degree which house does the planet belong to? 9th or 10th? Confused


Ancient Stars,

I'd have no hesitation placing the planet within the 10th house. I do follow the 5 degree rule as my teachers instructed. I believe this works best. Just me 2 cents...<g>!

sunflower.
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JohnLi



Joined: 05 Oct 2007
Posts: 25
Location: Netherlands

Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Ancientstars,

Do you have the birth data for your question? If possible also coordinates and street address / city / country.

I will do some calculations.

Best regards, John....
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ancientstars



Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 21

Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all, thank you everyone for your inputs.
Since there are mixed opinions shows that astrology is never really clear cut, is it Confused
It was interesting to read JohnLi's article using an online translation. I respect the need for accuracy of location & time, to the 'seconds' instead of minutes and at the moment I have to find out which hospital I was born so that I can really get close to the real location rather than just a city coordinates. Also it's interesting to find out that John has never seen (out of 1800 charts) a planet actually on the cusp.
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Namron



Joined: 22 Jan 2009
Posts: 6
Location: USA

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With angles, such as the MC I'd stay fluid. As transitions between signs, also houses don't have a fixed clear cut delineation. I believe there is an orb where a planet can work through both houses if right on the cusp.

In your case when a planet is on exact degree as the MC, I'd say it is in the 10th house.

Best, N
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kerenhappuch



Joined: 07 Jul 2005
Posts: 396
Location: UK

Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi ancientstars,

I'd agree with Julie here.

The houses do "blend" into one another, but it's usual for a planet within 5 degrees of the next cusp to be "bearing down" upon that house. This planet has control over that house, rather than being controlled by it. So if you have a planet at the same degree as the MC, I would definitely put it with the 10th, and its effects will be felt there very strongly indeed. It will be a dominant influence on the affairs of the 10th house, more so than the cusp ruler.

Keren
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JohnLi



Joined: 05 Oct 2007
Posts: 25
Location: Netherlands

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi all,

It is not my experience (29 years astrology) that planets in the region 5 degrees before a house could be considered as being in that next house, neither that they have an influence in that house.
In my experience the house boundaries are as sharp as blades of a knife, just as the positions of the planets withing a sign are to be take in that sign and not in the next sign, even if a planet has 29.59 as position.

Of course this all requires very exact calculations, so to the arc second (or better) for all planets. Uncertainties in the birth hour are to be corrected by correction of the horoscope with events in life.

It would be nice if "ancientstars" would give the birth time + coordinates so we have a nice example here.

Mind: I am not talking of ancient astrology where planets have their rob of influence which "shines through" the house boundaries as the ancients thought. I am talking about a more modern approach of astrology, base upon many years of expericence with hundreds of clients and thousands of horoscopes.

A very interesting horoscope is that of the former russian president Boris Jeltsin which I delineated on my own website 1 year ago, correcting the horoscope for his death.


http://home.hetnet.nl/~jligteneigen/Horoskopen/Jeltsin/jeltsin.html

You would need a translation program since this is written in the dutch language. But the point there was the slowly retrograding Neptune to Jeltsin's 5th house cusp which cut off life (C5=heart)
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Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4980
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi JohnLi,

Quote:
It is not my experience (29 years astrology) that planets in the region 5 degrees before a house could be considered as being in that next house, neither that they have an influence in that house.
In my experience the house boundaries are as sharp as blades of a knife, just as the positions of the planets withing a sign are to be take in that sign and not in the next sign, even if a planet has 29.59 as position.


I notice you are using Placidus houses in the chart you gave the link to. Have you always relied on this house system over the 29 year period you refer to?

I tend to feel the choices we make determine what we see in a chart. In other words you will see it when you believe it. If you use the 5 degree rule you will see that working, if not its visa versa. I doubt these issues can ever be settled. Its a question of consciousness not truth and falsehood in my opinion.

However, one thing everyone seems to agree on is the power of planets ingressing a different sign. I have recently been using whole signs houses for natal which of course eliminates discussion such as the 5 degree rule as well as the issue of intercepting signs in houses.
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JohnLi



Joined: 05 Oct 2007
Posts: 25
Location: Netherlands

Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi MarkC,

Yes, I've been using the Placidus system all the since the beginning of my astrological path and never changed it since, just as exactly I use the same systems of progressions from day#1

I happened to get into contact with one the dutch most productive astrologers ever who made 40.000 charts in his 45 years of practice. I've known him for about 28 years and we worked a lot together. He always used Placidus and made a lot of predictions up to the very 1 day difference. So I am following his footsteps which I decided very long ago when I was his student for a long time.

The experience from practice is that house boundaries are strict. They are not fuzzy. The 5 degree rule from the Ancients originiated probably from the idea of inaccuracy of the calculations, especially at night. So probably they decided that a "secure" area of 5 degress would suffice.

The same kind of thing happened with the structures in horary astrology where 27-30 degrees and 0-3 were "unsafe" for a delineation.
But today with our incredible accuracy of calculations there is no reason to do this.

I am only telling the Placidus worked for me very fine and surely there are many others who use some other house system, which is OK of course.
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Sei no Senshi



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 12

Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In my experience the house boundaries are as sharp as blades of a knife, just as the positions of the planets withing a sign are to be take in that sign and not in the next sign, even if a planet has 29.59 as position.


I don't think likening house cusps (which change every minute) and sign cusps (which don't ever change) in this way is a good way to go. I've always thought of house cusps as more permeable than sign cusps simply due to how variable they are.

Quote:
The 5 degree rule from the Ancients originiated probably from the idea of inaccuracy of the calculations, especially at night. So probably they decided that a "secure" area of 5 degress would suffice.


Maybe I'm making up an excuse for them, but I was always under the impression that they were giving the sun space to get off of the Ascendant (The sun at 2 above the Ascendant still has like half of it under the horizon.) So they gave the 5 rule to let the sun and other planets be completely free from and off of the ascendant, then they just decided to apply it to the other cusps. Like I said, that's how I've always thought of it, who knows what the original reason is.

Quote:
The same kind of thing happened with the structures in horary astrology where 27-30 degrees and 0-3 were "unsafe" for a delineation.
But today with our incredible accuracy of calculations there is no reason to do this.


Oh now, that's not very fair. They aren't "unsafe" at all, simple considerations before judgment, like the title it's listed under suggests. Early ascendants being indicative of situations that still aren't fully developed and late ascendants being indicative of the querent asking out of desperation or already knowing the answer, or both!
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