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Tetrabiblos: (Ptolemy Terms dont work in Horary)

 
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Morpheus



Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Posts: 764
Location: Rawalpindi/Islamabad (Pakistan)

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:05 pm    Post subject: Tetrabiblos: (Ptolemy Terms dont work in Horary) Reply with quote

I have read 'Tetrabiblos' and i am wondering why the Arabs were fascinated with Claudius Ptolemy?

I am sorry to say that my impression after reading his book for 2 times is that the writer of the Book is not an astrologer Shocked (i have read almost all the books ever written on palmistry and that has give me experience to identify, if a writer on any subject--about which i know a little bit is being original/expert or a compiler). It appears that 'Ptolemy' has made use of some astrological texts. I wish we had those original texts right now.

Anyway, sad to note and to give my research. Ptolemy Terms dont work in horary. I have started using Egyptian Terms for the past two days.l

What does your experience say after using Ptolemy's Terms. Secret
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epurdue



Joined: 14 Nov 2007
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Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A lot of Arabic writers used Egyptian terms. So did Bonatti.
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Astraea



Joined: 04 Oct 2004
Posts: 358
Location: Colorado, USA

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never had any success with the terms in horary until I switched to the Egyptian. Now the terms contribute a great deal to analysis, whereas the Ptolemy terms either didn't make sense, or seemed frankly irrelevant.
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
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Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But how can we explain then, that the Ptolemaic terms worked when Lilly applied them? And obviously they did to his contentment.
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epurdue



Joined: 14 Nov 2007
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Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johannes susato wrote:
But how can we explain then, that the Ptolemaic terms worked when Lilly applied them? And obviously they did to his contentment.


He was an experienced astrologer who worked with the system for many years over a large number of charts.
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###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1380

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But how can we explain then, that the Ptolemaic terms worked when Lilly applied them?

I'm sure this is a no-no here Wink, but can we really trust Lilly? He says his readings were correct. How many contemporary references are there to Lilly and his work? There may be quite a few and some very reliable people may have left records of his successes, but we don't seem to hear about them. Are there memoir or diary references of personal experiences with Lilly by politicians, noblemen, merchants, etc?
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
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Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirk wrote:
. . . , but can we really trust Lilly? He says his readings were correct. How many contemporary references are there to Lilly and his work? There may be quite a few and some very reliable people may have left records of his successes, but we don't seem to hear about them. Are there memoir or diary references of personal experiences with Lilly by politicians, noblemen, merchants, etc?

But this is the problem of nearly all authorities: they say, but we can not ask the clients or get any proof. Lilly left all or at least a very huge part of his horaries, elections and nativities. I recall to have read of about more than 10 000 charts. Thus it could be - and has been - provided proof whether he has follwed 'his' rules or not. To my knowledge this opus, viz. the CA and the charts, is unique and an outstanding challenge for research.

After all why should we not trust him and his manifest success?
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Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Lilly left all or at least a very huge part of his horaries, elections and nativities. I recall to have read of about more than 10 000 charts. Thus it could be - and has been - provided proof whether he has follwed 'his' rules or not.


It's not a matter of whether or not he followed his rules. We need verification of the results. It isn't good enough that he tells us things worked out as he foresaw (I have horary in mind mostly). We need other sources that tell us whether or not things came to pass as Lilly foretold. As I wrote earlier, are there diary entries, memoirs, autobiographies does anyone talk of going to Lilly and report the results of the question he delineated? Does anyone other than Lilly tell us if he got it right?

I brought this up once about 3 years ago and got not a single utterance. There could very well be lots of documentation out there. But where is it? And the most troubling part: Why doesn't anyone ask about it?
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epurdue



Joined: 14 Nov 2007
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Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If a horary astrologer follows Lilly and consistently gets good results, wouldn't it follow that Lilly got good results - assuming he actually did what he wrote about?
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Gunhilde



Joined: 10 Jun 2006
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Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Does anyone other than Lilly tell us if he got it right?


If he hadn't got it right, he would have been hanged or shot or burned at the stake. It didn't take much in those times to get on the wrong side of things, I imagine. They were stormy days. Someone caught lying (and publishing a book about it) would be in deep doo doo.

GH Smile
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PFN



Joined: 28 Dec 2008
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Location: Ouro Preto, Brasil

Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's really a problem, the lack of information about those astrologers that got right. Aside their books, seldom do we see anything.

Reports for them being right would really be appreciated, not just "it does all right for me".

Still Lilly has the Londom fire prediction, and he was respected during his time, that tells something to us.
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Morpheus



Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Posts: 764
Location: Rawalpindi/Islamabad (Pakistan)

Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I respect William Lilly a lot. CA is an informative/instructive book, and i have a learned a lot. But 'terms' constitute 'a little' in overall reading. So, if you get a portion of reading wrong but majority right than no body is going to hang you.

But my experience with Ptolemy Terms (and i am not talking about Lilly) is that they are incorrect. If the answer depended upon reception by Ptolemy terms, i got wrong. Thats all.

William Lilly based his Book on HIS OWN experiences. We should base on OUR own. His books show that he does not care about authorities. In Volume one he says that choice of significators on the basis of Moon last and next aspect is not a trusted one. Still he quotes volume second with different formulas (which is good) but still. Lilly is great, but we should learn his methods and go ahead with our own observations.

BTW, John Frawley does not care about strictures of judgement. For the time being he is modern authority. His use of receptions is totally different.

Ahem. The greatest authority is Horatio Leery
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Morpheus



Joined: 21 Mar 2007
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Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are always two portions of Horary Reading.

The answer to main question and
Analysis of the Current situation.

Horary Astrologers get second portion of the reading right on the consistent basis but the first portion is bit tricky.

Lets say the question is

When will i sell my car?

and some one writes

You will sell your car within 4 months. Its a large red coloured car. It has new seat covers and a teddy bear hanging in it.

If the car get sold in 8 months. the client is still happy because you got teddy bear hanging stuff right. Cool
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Morpheus

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