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Where are my papers?

 
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AnnieGoLightly



Joined: 17 Dec 2003
Posts: 52
Location: Adelaide, SA

Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 10:07 am    Post subject: Where are my papers? Reply with quote

I have been pondering the chart of a horary question which a group of us are looking at (all complete beginners in horary) and am stuck ... Confused

Q: Where are my papers? (lost passport and other important documents)
Chart data: 7 March 2004, 3:16pm, 34S55, 138E35 (Adelaide, Aus). ASC 27 Gem 55

The lost papers are represented by the 2nd (moveable wealth/possessions) - therefore signified in the chart by the Sun/Pisces in the 9th. What location would be indicated by the 9th? I know directionally it indicates a S-SW direction, but what else would you say it represents? Library, Court House, University? Leehman also suggests travel agent? Now as I don't know whether the person believes them to be within her house or not ... but if they were ... would the 9th indicate a room with a lot of books? Like a home study/library?

Leehman also adds that the sign on the cusp of the 9th being a water sign and the signifier being in a water sign indicates ‘near water’. Sorry can’t quote Frawley as I haven’t had time to read his book yet. Crying or Very sad

I did have a quick flick through Lilly, but I couldn't find a quick cheats reference list of locations (ah, we in the modern world can be demanding of quick fixes Rolling Eyes ).

As the querent is signified by Mercury/Pisces in 9th which is separating from the Sun (as is the Moon). Would this indicated that she won’t find them? I’m assuming that an applying aspect would represent a meeting up of the querent and her possessions?

Any input at this basic level is appreciated.
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Gina



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 44
Location: UK

Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I too am just a beginner Ann….so please bear with me. Just a couple of things I have dug up.
The ninth house relates to long trips…churches…publishing….colleges…places of higher learning.
Water signs are North or North West.
It is also the day and hour of the Sun so chart should be valid. Sun is also in its Joy in the ninth house.
Being in a water sign it could be somewhere low down…kitchens…bathroom…near plumbing, but being in Pisces could signify being near standing water…liquors/wines… chemicals..oils or even medicines.
Jupiter rules the Sun (or disposits it??) and Jupiter also rules passports.
Is this a ‘for real’ chart Ann, or just for learning purposes?

Will dig a bit deeper and get back to you.
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Gina



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
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Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh just a thought...I think the Moon is co-significator of querent. It is separating from a conjunction with Jupiter.(passport)
Also Jupiter(passport) and Mercury(querent) are in mutual reception.
Maybe when the Moon next makes a favourable aspect to Jupiter or Sun, the documents will be reunited with owner.
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Gina



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
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Posted: Sat May 01, 2004 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi there, I should have added, could someone please correct where I have gone wrong, I do realise I have a lot to learn.
It would be appreciated.
Regards Gina.
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Ficina
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Joined: 26 Mar 2004
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Posted: Sat May 01, 2004 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Ann and Gina Smile

There are a couple of considerations before judgement to take into account here. There is no planetary hour agreement and a late degree rises. Some horary astrologers would read the chart anyway, but many wouldn't!

Mercury separating from the Sun suggests to me that she has left them behind somewhere. I can almost hear the audience shouting "Look behind you!" Wink But where did she leave them? One's eye is drawn to the 3rd house - Moon is there, Mercury rules it and Jupiter, dispositing both Querent and Quesited, is also there - at a sibling's or neighbour's home?

The next aspect made by all three significators is to Mars - in 11th and ruling 5th and 10th. This is beginning to feel like a wild goose chase, sending us dancing all around the houses! And I'm wondering if this is an indication that the chart is not fit to be judged, due to lack of radicality?
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AnnieGoLightly



Joined: 17 Dec 2003
Posts: 52
Location: Adelaide, SA

Posted: Sun May 02, 2004 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for responses so far.

Gina ... this is a 'real' question ... the papers have been lost by someone hoping to go travelling soon and is at her witts end to find the papers.

Finca ... regarding considerations before judgement. Yes, I note the late degree rising, however Frawley states that considerations before judgement are exactly that, considerations. He said in a lecture recently that it must be remembered that in days of old all astrologers worked for Kings and if they got it wrong, they lost their heads. Therefore they needed a 'way out' should the chart reflect something that they knew the king would find unfavourable. By having the considerations listed the astrologer was able to pull a manuscript off the shelf, point to a relevant paragraph and respond to the king that the laws of astrology say that the chart can't be judged. The king goes away in acceptance of 'the laws' and the astrologer retains his head for another day. The point being that all charts can be judged, the considerations only indicated that the astrologer might not be seeing the chart clearly, the client may not like the answer they get, or that be answering the question the astrologer's reputation may be damaged.

Thanks for the input ... I will definitely put forward the idea of 'leaving behind' ... I'm sure this lady will be able to accept that sort of information, but I bet in the old days an astrologer would never have dared to tell a king that through absent mindedness he left essential court documents behind at a siblings house (especially as siblings were often their enemies along with everyone else).

thanks for input given
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Gina



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
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Posted: Sun May 02, 2004 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a thought Ann......the Sun(documents) is in its joy in the 9th house. That's where he is happy and content.
Maybe documents are in their usual place, but have been overlooked.
It's worth looking again.
Gina.
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Ficina
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Posted: Sun May 02, 2004 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Ann Smile

Yes, I know all about what Mr Frawley says Wink His reasoning is certainly logical - in those days it was useful to have a list of excuses for not reading a chart in order for the astrologer to keep his head! And I agree, the considerations are something that should be kept in mind while reading a chart rather than not reading it at all. However, the proof of the pudding etc. It's only by looking at lots of charts that we can form an opinion as to whether the considerations are valid or not. If a chart is not yielding a clear answer, then it is quite possible that it's down to lack of radicality. Of course it could be due to the fuzzy-mindedness of the astrologer also Wink

I have done many charts for football matches, and have had successes and failures irrespective of planetary hour agreement - so I haven't come to any definite conclusion on that one. However, I do know other horary astrologers who have different views regarding this and the other considerations, based on their own experience - and this is what counts, I think. Certainly take on board what the experts say, but always try it out for yourself.

I think it was Barbara Watters (though I could be wrong) who coined the term "strictures" before judgement (according to Maurice McCann in his book IIRC) and many astrologers have latched on to this term, rather than the original "considerations". This is unfortunate, but is quite possibly the reason why the considerations are seen by some as more restrictive than perhaps they should be.
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Pete



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
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Location: Kinnelon, New Jersey, USA

Posted: Sun May 02, 2004 7:43 pm    Post subject: Missing papers Reply with quote

AnnieGoLightly wrote:

... regarding considerations before judgement. Yes, I note the late degree rising, however Frawley states that considerations before judgement are exactly that, considerations. He said in a lecture recently that it must be remembered that in days of old all astrologers worked for Kings and if they got it wrong, they lost their heads. Therefore they needed a 'way out' should the chart reflect something that they knew the king would find unfavourable. By having the considerations listed the astrologer was able to pull a manuscript off the shelf, point to a relevant paragraph and respond to the king that the laws of astrology say that the chart can't be judged. The king goes away in acceptance of 'the laws' and the astrologer retains his head for another day. The point being that all charts can be judged, the considerations only indicated that the astrologer might not be seeing the chart clearly, the client may not like the answer they get, or that be answering the question the astrologer's reputation may be damaged.


Hi, mind if I join in?
While I agree with what John Frawley says about the fate of many medieval astrologers, I don't believe that that was the reason these Considerations are in place. I do see them as just that: "considerations", and not strictures, but their presence in a chart, and particularly if there are more than one, should be taken as a sign that something is amiss, and caution should be the watchword.
Here we have a late degree rising, which often shows that the matter has gone too far for any resolution to be found that will satisfy the querent. Sometimes it can mean that the querent already knows the answer or has made a decision on the subject. Another consideration is the presence of a retrograde Saturn, in detriment and retrograde, in the 1st house. Lilly, on page 122 of 'CA', says that this represents a matter that 'seldome or never comes to good'
The clincher for me though, is the fact that there is no agreement between the Ascendant or its ruler ( Gemini/Mercury ) and the planetary-hour ruler ( Sun ).
This is generally accepted as following the guidance of Guido Bonatus in his "Considerations", where he says, in part:

"1. The 1st, is to observe what it is that moves a person to propose or ask a question of an Astrologer; where we must take notice of three motions: the First, of the mind, when a man is stirred up in his thoughts and hath an intent to enquire; *a Second, of the superiour and celestial bodies; so that they at that time imprint on the thing enquired after, what shall become of it;* the Third, of the free will which disposes him to the very act of enquiring; for although the mind be moved to enquire, ‘tis not enough unless the superiour bodies sympathize therewith; nor is such motion of the stars enough, unless by the election of his will the person does actually enquire..."
[ Guido Bonatus: "Anima Astrologiae."]

So according to Bonatus, ( and Lilly quotes him in CA, page 121-22 ) the celestial bodies must imprint on the thing enquired after, or in other words, there must be a link between the heavenly bodies and the question. This link has long been taken to be the agreement between the planetary-hour ruler and the ascendant or its lord, and in my experience, where there has been no agreement, or a very tenuous one, then I have found the chart to be very difficult to read compared to the charts where the agreement has been there explicitly. It's as if the "Daemon of Astrology", if you will, has turned his face from the chart and the chart itself seems to be full of contradictory indications that make an accurate resolution well nigh impossible.
That seems to be the case with this horary. The late degree rising, the presence of a retro Saturn in the ascendant, the combustion and detriment of the asc ruler don't bode well for a satisfactory outcome. I'm not saying the chart can't be read, but I would need more information, such as a description of the querent for example, before I would even attempt it.
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Deb
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Posted: Wed May 05, 2004 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Pete

For what it’s worth I did my own study of this few years ago. The conclusion I came to was that charts with planetary hour agreement are more capable of being used proactively by the astrologer to create a favourable outcome. For example, in lost property charts those that had planetary hour agreement tended to lead the astrologer to discover what had happened and directly assisted in locating the missing object. Those without were often very descriptive but tended to be verified by hindsight – that is, the astrologer didn’t lead the querent to locate the missing object, it may have been discovered incidentally at a later date, but through reflection the chart could be demonstrated as descriptive and valid. I also agree with Olivia Barclay that the judgement is more likely to please the querent, but I think part of the reason for that is that the agreement demonstrates this harmonious alignment between the nature of the question and the timing involved as you suggest. So there is a greater sense of engagement with the process that unites the astrologer’s judgement with the querent’s urge to understand what is happening in the broadest sense, filtering all the way through to specific details. So even where the news is bad, the querent is more open to accepting the advice offered and taking something beneficial out of the judgement.

I’m fairly convinced that, providing other factors concur, charts with planetary hour agreement are usually the best charts to read, with strong and impressive symbolism. It’s one very good indication to have in the chart. But I think it has to be taken into context with the chart as a whole and that’s why most experienced astrologers have found its best not to be too hard and fast about this, preferring to view it as a consideration rather than a ‘stricture’. I’d never discard a chart purely on this consideration but it’s one of the factors that gives me confidence in the reading. I like the way that you put it – that it’s demonstrating a ‘daemon of astrology’. But even where the hour agreement is lacking I might find evidence of this through other factors in the chart. For example, I very often find the degree of my natal Moon rising on the ascendant, both in my personal and client horaries. Experience has shown me that I do particularly well with those charts, so I like to see that happen and take that as an indication that the time the question was delivered to me for astrological judgement ‘hit the mark’.

I think here, the fact that there is no agreement and the ascendant is late, would make me reluctant to judge - but if anyone wants to comment further I'll pop a copy of the chart in later.
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AnnieGoLightly



Joined: 17 Dec 2003
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Location: Adelaide, SA

Posted: Sun May 09, 2004 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pete & Deb

Thanks for your input ... I will certainly take it on board.

Now that it is over a week since I made my post and all investigations of this chart have been taken as far as they could by the little group I was involved with in judging the chart, I must say I really had to laugh upon reading your respective inputs ... especially about the planetary hour and Saturn retrograde in the 1st.

Yes, nothing good came of it and the chart will only be able to be judged in hindsight ... why? Our little group came to the conclusion that we really needed more input from the querent to get a satisfactory answer ... upon turning to the person who put the question forth to the group to ask them to get more info ... they responded that they 'couldn't remember which one of two potential women had asked'. So the late Asc rising, Sat Retro 1st as well as no consensus between the planetary hour and the Asc did indeed give the correction indications of this chart ... we've all been led on a wild goose chase and much time has been wasted! ... well on trying to read this silly chart anyway, but in one respect it was worth it for me, as through Deb's and Pete's posts I feel I have made yet another step in my learning.

many thanks for your time and input.
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Pete



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
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Posted: Sun May 09, 2004 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're welcome Ann. I subscribe to the belief that "there are no coincidences" and that therefore, everything is unfolding according to Divine O,rder. In that respect, no-one's time has truly been wasted. Deb's ideas on Planetary Hour Agreement helped me to hone my own, so in that sense I benefited too from this horary, so thanks for posting it up.

Cheers
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Pete



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Posted: Sun May 09, 2004 2:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your ideas on this Deb. It's probably the most well-rounded evaluation of PHA that I've heard and on reflection I can only agree with every word of it.

Cheers...
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Ficina
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Posted: Sun May 09, 2004 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Our little group came to the conclusion that we really needed more input from the querent to get a satisfactory answer ... upon turning to the person who put the question forth to the group to ask them to get more info ... they responded that they 'couldn't remember which one of two potential women had asked'.


Well, if they've at least managed to narrow it down to two, why doesn't this person approach both women? Seems strange that they can't remember when apparently the woman was "at her wits end" Confused
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Ficina
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Posted: Sun May 09, 2004 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh yes, and my thanks to Pete and Deb Smile QED beautifully Wink
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