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House Rulership in Traditional Astrology
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1464

Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jogi wrote:
This is the way modern astrologers want you to persuade that Aries = Mars = 1th house - that all those things mean the same. And most of them make no difference in their delineations between the 1th house and Aries or between Mars and the 1th and so on. In this way reading a chart is like wading through swampland on a foggy day. Everything looks the same and means the same no matter in which way you look at it.
Thanks for your explanation of this kind of ABC!

Perhaps the problems in your understanding of Zoller explaining Morin vanish if you consider this:

1. The planets in their essentiality are the universal causes of all accidents.
2. Their emanations are accidentally formed by the houses.
3. Nevertheless the planets remain the causes of all accidents.
4. Thus they connect the significations of the houses they rule with the significations of the houses they dwell in.
5. Accidentally the ruled houses are sometimes the 'causes', sometimes the anticipating or foregoing accidents of the accidents accidentally formed by the house and the universal cause and power of the dwelling and ruling planet in both their co-operation, and (I am really sorry, Jogi! Very Happy ) vice versa - but ever the meanings or significations of all involved houses are to be connected in a reasonable way with the planet and its status coelestis.

Johannes
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Jogi



Joined: 27 Aug 2008
Posts: 56
Location: Germany

Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now I found another example from Zoller.

He gives an example chart:
- Mars conjunct Venus in the 2nd
- Aries on the cusp of the 9th
- Scorpio on the cusp of the 4th
- Capricorn on the cusp of the 6th

He says: “And one can say that the 9th contributes to the 2nd – the native`s finances are obtained through travelling and lecturing and through 9th house activities related to spiritual issues. Mars is also connected to the 4th – to the family, the land, the property, the dwelling, all contribute to the martian experience in the 2nd house. […] And the 6th house (the native`s skills) contribute to the financial well-being.”

For me this means that the houses are the causes or the origins for the native`s income – which correspond with Morin`s opinion.
Whereas in Zoller`s examples given in my last post, the ruler and not the house was the cause or the origin. For me it sounds that Zoller seems to contradict himself. And this makes things a bit fuzzy to me (and additionally English is not my native language).


@ Johannes
Again our posts overlapped Razz.
Quote:
1. The planets in their essentiality are the universal causes of all accidents.
2. Their emanations are accidentally formed by the houses.
3. Nevertheless the planets remain the causes of all accidents.
4. Thus they connect the significations of the houses they rule with the significations of the houses they dwell in.
5. Accidentally the ruled houses are sometimes the 'causes', sometimes the anticipating or foregoing accidents of the accidents accidentally formed by the house and the universal cause and power of the dwelling and ruling planet in both their co-operation, and (I am really sorry, Jogi! Very Happy ) vice versa - but ever the meanings or significations of all involved houses are to be connected in a reasonable way with the planet and its status coelestis.

Johannes - you`re killing me Laughing . I`ll try to consider what you wrote - thank you.

But after all: maybe it would be very interesting to try all this on some examples!?

Best wishes
Jürgen
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1464

Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jogi wrote:

And the 6th house (the native`s skills) [. . . ]
This sentence is very astonishing and sounds post-classically . . .
Is this really Robert Zoller?


Jogi wrote:

Now I found another example from Zoller.

He gives an example chart:
- Mars conjunct Venus in the 2nd
- Aries on the cusp of the 9th
- Scorpio on the cusp of the 4th
- Capricorn on the cusp of the 6th
Jogi, are these the facts Zoller is giving or do you outline his example chart?

By the way: This IS an example we are trying, isn't it?

Johannes
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Olivia



Joined: 15 Oct 2008
Posts: 866

Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a hard time understanding Zoeller's writing style, too, and I've also heard the same thing from people whose first language is English, so don't feel too bad. I think it would be much clearer to see with an example chart.

To throw a little more into the stew from Ibn Ezra (love him, and he's so clear when he explains things):

Quote:
Masha'allah said that if the ruler of the second house is in the rising sign one will gain profit and wealth without effort, but if the ruler of the rising sign is in the second house, one will work hard to pursue money...'


I'm not quite sure how or if that correlates with realisation and outcome (I thought those words were the same or similar in meaning), but it makes sense.

Can we get a native English speaker to clarify, perhaps?
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1464

Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Olivia, do you quote Ibn Ezra, who quotes Masha'allah? Please, where can I find this quotation, which is 1:1 Morin? Unbelievable, it is just Morin's example of lord of the first in the tenth and vice versa, quoted by me above.
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Olivia



Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's in the ARHAT translation (by Meira Epstein, edited by Rob Hand) of Ibn Ezra's The Book of Nativities and Revolutions, on page 36.
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1464

Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you very much, Olivia! Very Happy

Would you mind to give me a section or chapter? I don't own the English translation and would like to read the latin version.
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Olivia



Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Latin isn't as good as the Hebrew, but there aren't any translation notes pointing to discrepancies between the texts in this part, so it's probably fine.

The Second House, subsection: [Additional Considerations for Wealth]

For anyone who does have the translation, it's page 34, not 36 - I mistyped.
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1464

Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very kind of you, Olivia. I'll try the Latin, and this quotation doesn't seem to be too sophisticated so it will prabably do, you are right.
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Olivia



Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know, I have Lord of the First in 10 and Lord of the Second in 1. And I'm dirt-poor. I wasn't always, but I've never been really rich either.

L1 is Jupiter, but L2 is Saturn, though they're both well-dignified and in good aspect to each other. Venus disposits Jupiter and is my LoG (and very well-dignified essentially, but in House 3 - grrr - or House 4 by Whole Sign). Still, when I'm not busy breaking bones or having other accidents or illness (which seems to take all my money, and I'm only able to work part-time now because of it), I never have had to look for work - people always come to me and ask me to work for them.

Even now I get by because I do part-time work for people when they ask me to, but I never got a job by looking for one. It's always been the other way around - people asking me if I'll work for them, or doing work on my own and people want to buy it.

But hey - I want the money that Jupiter in 10 and being L1 is supposed to bring! I have got a fair amount of honours from working, but that doesn't pay the bills.
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Jogi



Joined: 27 Aug 2008
Posts: 56
Location: Germany

Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Johannes:
Quote:
And the 6th house (the native`s skills) [. . . ]
This sentence is very astonishing and sounds post-classically . . .
Is this really Robert Zoller?

Yes it is definitely from Zoller. He explains somewhere in his course that in the past people had their slaves to do the unconvenient work for them and the slaves had the skills to do that. Now that we have no slaves anymore, we have to do these things by ourselfes. This is the reason for him why he delineates the 6th with the native`s work, service and skills. At the end of Lesson 6 in his Diploma Course he gives an example: “…if the Sun is in the 6th house for example, the native is going to receive recognition for his/her skills and service and work.” Additionally the 6th still has the meaning of servants and small animals, minor illness etc.

Quote:
Now I found another example from Zoller.

He gives an example chart:
- Mars conjunct Venus in the 2nd
- Aries on the cusp of the 9th
- Scorpio on the cusp of the 4th
- Capricorn on the cusp of the 6th
Jogi, are these the facts Zoller is giving or do you outline his example chart?

Yes of course these are exactly the facts given by Zoller.

Quote:
By the way: This IS an example we are trying, isn't it?

It is one, yes. But I thought of the kind of examples that Olivia gave us.
Examples from our charts or from the charts of clients (of course anonymous) etc.

Olivia:
Quote:
Masha'allah said that if the ruler of the second house is in the rising sign one will gain profit and wealth without effort, but if the ruler of the rising sign is in the second house, one will work hard to pursue money...'

I understand this the same way Morin teaches it: L1 in 2nd: the action goes from the native to the money, he strives for money, money is his main motivation and he will work for it. Allthough Masha'allah does not mention the nature and dignity of the planets involved. If it is Jupiter in good dignity the native will have success; if it is Saturn in bad Dignity the native will fail and stay poor. And this is the same that Zoller teaches according to the 1st house.
L2 in the 1st means that the action goes from the money to the native. It is not the natives motivation to earn money but it comes to him if L2 is Jupiter and it will not come if L2 is Saturn in bad zodical state.
This is how I understand it.

Quote:
You know, I have Lord of the First in 10 and Lord of the Second in 1. And I'm dirt-poor. I wasn't always, but I've never been really rich either. [...] ...I never have had to look for work - people always come to me and ask me to work for them.

What you describe here sounds exactly the opposite of what Morin and Zoller are teaching – at least for me. Because I would say that due to L1 in the 10th you should look for jobs, you should search for jobs. If you had L10 in the 1st your description would fit better. The same with L2 in the 1st: money should find you, particularly with Jupiter >>> It is Saturn = see my correction in my next post - SORRY.
What signs are on the cusps of your 6th, 8th and 12th ? And where are their rulers? Because when L2 is in the 1st it could mean (for me) that money goes to your health (= 1st house), i.e. you spend money for your health. When L2 rules one or more of the above mentioned houses (by sign, exaltation, triplicitiy or term) then illness is also an issues connected with money. That`s the way I would see it.

In Zoller`s terms I would say that the realization of your 2nd depends on Jupiter in the first. Jupiter then shows the source / origin of your income = you are the source of your income, you have to do something to earn money, you can only rely on yourself when it comes to financial issues and earning money. The second part would be the question if this can be realized. And this depends mainly on the essential and accidential dignities of Jupiter in the 1st. You would have problems with a square or oppostion from Mars/Saturn to Jupiter as L2.

The second term would be the outcome. What results from the 2nd house and it`s connection with the 1st house. In Zoller`s words: “The placement, natures and zodiacal state of the rulers of the 2nd will tell you where the financial needs will lead. In a sense, each of the rulers of the 2nd is offering help.”

So far my thoughts.
Maybe one (or more) of the forum members that already finished Zoller`s course could give us some hints or deeper explanations - I`m not sure, but I think Steven Birchfield studied under Zoller?

Best wishes
Jürgen


Last edited by Jogi on Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:55 am; edited 1 time in total
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1464

Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Olivia wrote:

But hey - I want the money that Jupiter in 10 and being L1 is supposed to bring! I have got a fair amount of honours from working, but that doesn't pay the bills.

Hi Olivia,

perhaps it comforts you, that - with Morin - Jupiter is perhaps the general (natural) significator for wealth (among other things), but in your horoskope the special significator for money is Saturn, lord of your second. And Saturn even if he is well dignified, will - with Morin - never be as fortunate as Jupiter.

Johannes
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Jogi



Joined: 27 Aug 2008
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Location: Germany

Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uuups crying - I mixed it up totally. Johannes - thank you for the hint Thumbs up and sorry to Olivia Sad

You`re completey right. But nevertheless, with Saturn in the 1st as L2, Olivia is the source of her income (due to Zoller). But Saturn`s nature leeds to difficulties with money, he will generally take. Because of his nature he is more likely to show expenditures for Olivia`s 1st house (i.e. Olivia - her personality, her body etc. - is the reason for spending money) - Jupiter would have shown more success.

Sorry for the confusion I raised. I think it`s always better to have the whole chart in front of oneself.
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Olivia



Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can post the chart if you promise not to use it curse me Razz It's in Regiomontanus houses - http://36cards.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/chart1.jpg

I like the way both Ibn Ezra (he goes into more details, obviously) and Masha'allah explain it. You still get the whole picture, including understanding why a certain rising sign will bring X, Y, and Z events (because if you have this rising sign, then you don't get on with your siblings, you cause your own death, you argue with scholars, etc. based on the signs on the other house cusps), as well as going into more detail on the malefics and benefics in different houses and what they mean.

It may just be me having a hard time with Zoeller's writing (though I defer to the native English-speakers), but it seems like he takes complicated concepts and he writes so obscurely that he complicates them even more.
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janeg



Joined: 25 Nov 2008
Posts: 98

Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zoller's main point, I believe, was that the rulers of a house will work according to their own nature to produce what is signified by the house. So the first thing to consider, in the case of a planet ruling or in the 2nd House, is whether it has a natural analogy to wealth or expenditures.

Saturn or Mars connected with the 2nd have a stronger analogy to losses and expenditures unless they are in very good cosmic state, and even then, any wealth produced would come, with Saturn, after delays or by hard work and from Mars, with strife and conflicts and effort.

If Saturn rules the 2nd and is in the 7th, money would be spent or lost through marriage, partnerships or lawsuits. If he was in reasonably good state, possibly wealth through these same things but later in life.

If Saturn ruled the 7th and was in the 2nd, it would have a similar signification, money lost through marriage, lawsuits or partnerships. Or, if in good state, money gained through the same things but always with delays or difficulties of some sort.

The key difference, I think, would be that in the first case, ruler of 2nd in 7th, the native would seek to acquire money through 7th house people or concerns whereas in the second case, ruler of the 7th in the 2nd, 7th house people or matters would come to affect their wealth without the native seeking them.

Saturn, ruler of the 2nd in the 1st, as in Olivia's chart; expenditures (Saturn) come to her due to accidents (Saturn sextile Mars). Mars in the 2nd ruling 11th, friends (11th) produce occasions to make money (2nd) but given Mars nature and its sextile to Saturn, the money earned with effort (Mars) is spent (Mars) on physical needs.

In all cases, what is produced hinges on the nature and quality of the planet. The house the planet rules indicates what the planet is trying to produce, the house the planet is in indicates the area of life in which the planet is trying to realize the matters signified by the house it rules. The planet, by its location, also has signification for furthering or hindering what is promised by the house it is in.

For example, in Olivia's chart, Saturn, as ruler of the 2nd, is producing expenditures and, in the 1st, the expenditures are on physical or bodily conditions. At the same time, Saturn in the 1st is making the life (1st) difficult and reducing its enjoyment. So Saturn is harming the life primarily by producing unfavourable and expensive problems with the physical body.
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