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House Rulership in Traditional Astrology
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janeg



Joined: 25 Nov 2008
Posts: 98

Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Johannes ...

The quote is from Book 18, Chapter XIV The Intrinsic Strength and Quality of the Houses of the Horoscope. Also, the Strength accruing to the Planets through their placement in the Houses

It's in the 3rd point he makes after the paragraph starting Hence, in my opinion, the strengths proper of the Houses depend on the following points:

Sorry, I have no idea where it would fall in the Latin text and for those with the English version, the quote is actually at the top of page 96
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1464

Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

janeg wrote:

The quote is from Book 18, Chapter XIV The Intrinsic Strength and Quality of the Houses of the Horoscope. Also, the Strength accruing to the Planets through their placement in the Houses

It's in the 3rd point he makes after the paragraph starting Hence, in my opinion, the strengths proper of the Houses depend on the following points:

Hi janeg,

thanks to your piloting I find your quotation in the Latin original on page 431, in the middle of the left column. But there is an erratum concerning the page number: Obviously they turned the '1' twice and it looks as page '413' now.

Thanks for your help Very Happy
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Jogi



Joined: 27 Aug 2008
Posts: 56
Location: Germany

Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Jane,

in your very good explanation of realization/outcome you wrote:
Quote:
Causes relate to why the outcomes are as they are. He used the planet dispositing the planets in the house; and here, as in most cases, the cusp ruler, Saturn, is also the dispositor and its state and location indicated the cause of the contentions between his friends... And since the Sun and Mercury are also disposed by Saturn, the indication is that at different times in the native's life the same cause (Saturn in Leo) produces different 11th House experiences.

In this example Zoller uses his own chart with Capr. on the 11th and Aquar. on the 12 house cusp. In this case Saturn is house ruler and dispositor of all the planets in the 11th house.

Assuming you have an 11th house with the same planets in it but the cusp of the 11th is in Aquar. and Sun and Mercury are in Pieces. The ruler of the whole house is Saturn and with Mars in Aquar. Saturn is also Mars`dispositor.
Saturn shows the causes of the 11th because he is house ruler and dispositor of Mars. But what about the Sun and Mercury in Pieces?
To delineate the causes for Sun and Mercury, would you:
- give preference to their dispositor Jupiter?
- would you nonetheless take Saturn as house ruler allthough their dispositor is Jupiter?
- would you take both, Jupiter and Saturn to delineate the causes?

Best wishes
Jürgen
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janeg



Joined: 25 Nov 2008
Posts: 98

Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jogi wrote:
Hi Jane,

in your very good explanation of realization/outcome you wrote:
Quote:
Causes relate to why the outcomes are as they are. He used the planet dispositing the planets in the house; and here, as in most cases, the cusp ruler, Saturn, is also the dispositor and its state and location indicated the cause of the contentions between his friends... And since the Sun and Mercury are also disposed by Saturn, the indication is that at different times in the native's life the same cause (Saturn in Leo) produces different 11th House experiences.

In this example Zoller uses his own chart with Capr. on the 11th and Aquar. on the 12 house cusp. In this case Saturn is house ruler and dispositor of all the planets in the 11th house.

Assuming you have an 11th house with the same planets in it but the cusp of the 11th is in Aquar. and Sun and Mercury are in Pieces. The ruler of the whole house is Saturn and with Mars in Aquar. Saturn is also Mars`dispositor.
Saturn shows the causes of the 11th because he is house ruler and dispositor of Mars. But what about the Sun and Mercury in Pieces?
To delineate the causes for Sun and Mercury, would you:
- give preference to their dispositor Jupiter?
- would you nonetheless take Saturn as house ruler allthough their dispositor is Jupiter?
- would you take both, Jupiter and Saturn to delineate the causes?

Best wishes
Jürgen


Hi Jurgen... I think you have to take them all into consideration but would lean towards Saturn in domicile in the 11th as the ultimate significator of the 11th; the other planets in the house would also show events connected with the house affairs and Jupiter, as their dispositor, would indicate their causes.
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Jogi



Joined: 27 Aug 2008
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Location: Germany

Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Hi Jurgen... I think you have to take them all into consideration but would lean towards Saturn in domicile in the 11th as the ultimate significator of the 11th; the other planets in the house would also show events connected with the house affairs and Jupiter, as their dispositor, would indicate their causes.

Thank you Jane Smile
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pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
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Posted: Sun May 17, 2015 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

janeg wrote:
Hi ... for the last few days I've been puzzling over how best to respond to the question of the difference between outcomes, realizations and causes. Zoller discusses them in DMA Lesson 6 but, as is easily seen from Jogi's direct quote, the language of the text isn't exactly clear and succinct. As a result, I went back to Zoller's Foundation Course where he was a little more straightforward in describing how to read a house.

To begin with, he describes a general approach to reading a house.

In good Medieval Aristotelian style we want answers to the questions" Whether it is, What it is, How it is and Why it is?

Let us say that we are interested in the 11th house. The General Approach guides us to see:
a) if the affairs of the house will be realised or not (i.e. whether the native will have friends?) [Whether it is]
b) What kind of friends the native will have
c) How the affairs associated with the house will manifest (e.g. what is the quality of the interaction between the native and his friends), and
d) Why this is so


I would equate realization to Whether it is? In the context of the 11th House: Will the house realize or produce friends? Will he or won't he have friends?

I think (b) and (c) What kind of friends? and How the affairs with friends will manifest relate to outcomes: What the native will actually experience in his life in relation to friends.

And (d) Why this is so with causes. Why do his experiences with friends happen the way the do?

Unfortunately, he doesn't delineate the house following the order a,b,c and d as listed above so the following is my re-arrangement of what he said to match the above.

a. Whether it is
Quote:

We can also use the ruler(s) to discover "Whether" the native has an 11th House (or any other house). While it is rare, it is possible to have a house "switched off" so that the native is denied that area of life.

The happens when all the rulers {by dignity} of a house are afflicted. Afflictions are of ten kinds according to Bonatti in 146 Considerations translated from the Latin by Coley and published by Lilly in 1675. Of these ten, four are most common: Planets are afflicted when retrograde, combust, cadent and conjunct, square or opposed a malefic Planet. If most of a house's rulers are afflicted and the few which are minor rulers (decan, term), there is still danger that the house affairs may not be operative or will operate with difficulty. A healthy, operative house has 1. All rulers angular, succedent and unafflicted. 2. The ruler(s) of the house in the house. 3. The ruler(s) of the house in favourable aspect to the benefics.


He looks at all the rulers of the 11th, the cusp is at 16 Capricorn: sign, exaltation, triplicity, term and decan. Saturn rules the Capricorn cusp, Mars is the exaltation ruler, Capricorn's triplicity rulers are Venus, Moon and Mars, Venus is the term ruler and Mars is the decan ruler.

So the 11th house rulers are: Saturn, Mars, Veus, Moon.
Saturn and Mars are afflicted by their mutual opposition and Mars is also combust Venus is in the 9th conjunct (5 deg) the MC therfore Angular, unafflicted. Moon is also Angular and unafflicted. So, because 2 of the 11th House cusp rulers are strong (angular) and unafflicted he concludes the native will have friends. The promise of the 11th, friends, will be realized.

b. What kind of friends will he have?

These are primarily described by the planets in the 11th: Mercury (learned), Sun (powerful), Mars (fighters).

He also ties in the house each planet rules. For example, Mars rules the 9th so he says the native's contentious (Mars) friends "have some sort of religious, educational or foreign connection i.e. they will be religious zealots or haters of religion, educators with zealous philosophical opinions, or aggressive or courageous persons of foreign birth possibly met during foreign journeys."

c. How he will interact with his friends?

"The native's social life will at best be loud (Martians like to make noise, slap each other on the back), magnanimous (Sun) and learned (Mercury)"

Saturn, the cusp ruler, in the 5th links the 5th with friends How will the native enjoy himself?. Answer: with friends. Note that here, the position of Saturn in the 5th takes precedence; he 'enjoys' (location, 5th house) himself with friends (11th, ruled).

d. Why this is so

Quote:

"The good or the bad signified by an {sic} house emanates from the ruler of the house." This does two very important things. It allows us to see connections and it answers the question "Why it is?"


In his delineation he says Mars dominates the 11th (it's the almuten); it is a combust malefic in opposition to its dispositor and cusp ruler, Saturn, the other malefic. He therefore 'spoils' the good of the house by introducing unresolved conflicts.

Saturn, the ruler of the cusp and Mars dispositor, shows us the why, the cause of the conflict. Saturn is in Leo, in detriment, "debilitated and nasty, a troublemaker who overstates his worth because of a profound sense of mediocrity. He aspires to be great but can't get there." and as Saturn is in the 7th from the 11th,

Quote:

"...shows that the frustrated egotism and power drive referred to above is operating in the context of the friends partnerships or dealings with others. In other words the cause {Zoller's emphasis} of the hostility marring the native's social life is due to the native's friends wanting to dominate others or running into disputes in connection with partnerships....
... And since the Sun and Mercury are also disposed by Saturn, the indication is that at different times in the native's life the same cause (Saturn in Leo) produces different 11th House experiences.


So from the above, realization refers to whether or not the significations of the house will occur in the life: will he have friends, money, a spouse, a career, etc. And the realization is shown by the strength of the sign rulers. Here, 2 rulers, Venus and the Moon were strong and unafflicted therefore the native would have friends. He also says its rare that a house is totally switched off so perhaps realization is a moot point.

Outcomes relate to the how and what. The manner in which the affairs of the house are realized: easily, with difficulty, by what means, etc. Mars, Mercury and the Sun showed what type of friends he had and how they interacted. Mars, in bad state, in the 11th, was working against the promise of the 11th; to impede 'the good' promised. And Saturn, the cusp ruler, was also working against the good of the house by being in bad state and in opposition to the 11th.

Causes relate to why the outcomes are as they are. He used the planet dispositing the planets in the house; and here, as in most cases, the cusp ruler, Saturn, is also the dispositor and its state and location indicated the cause of the contentions between his friends.

At least, that is how I understand what he's said.

He says much the same in DMA Lesson 6 although with more details.

Quote:

In judging a house, it is very important to keep in mind that position is stronger than rulership. While we have just been discussing rulership in the figure and there is more yet to be said about rulership in connection with houses, the position of planets in the house is {sic} far more impact than the strength of the ruler. The ruler will show something of the outcome, what will eventually eventuate, but the planets in the house are given preference because they will work for or against the realisation of the houses.


At first glance this seems to be the reverse of what he says in the Foundation Course but a closer read says the ruler will 'show something' .. i.e. it doesn't say everything about outcomes; planets in the house are 'given preference'. Which is essentially what he said in the Foundation Course, planets in the house give a stronger objective description of the house affairs than the cusp ruler. However, if there are no planets in the house, then we need to look to the cusp ruler for realization, outcomes and causes.

Hope that helps somewhat; again, it's my own read on what he's saying and I could be interpreting him incorrectly.


I thought I will revive this thread for no other reason than it's importance and quality of discussion.
This particular reply by janeg was a very good explanation.

I wonder if the participants of this thread or new ones would explain the 7th house of Adolf hitler.

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Hitler,_Adolf

Also,
the 7th and 1st lord hovering around algol.

Somewhere, I read that a retrograde planet destroys the house it resides in.

------
The assessment:

Whether it is ?

Yes, but a bit bit of a struggle 7th lord in 7th but in detriment.
7th house occupied by Venus 1st lord-strong but retrograde(erratic)-he married someone familiar and close to home.
10th lord in 7th- honour/recognition after marriage/alliance or in other words- to achieve fame and recognition she married to her detriment.
His partner was known to him first professionally, as a photographer's assistant.
Mars is also 8th lord from 7th- same with husband- venus: couple died together-responsible for their own deaths.

What kind of wife would the native have:

Planets in 7th:

Sun:sun has lost its exaltation by moving in to taurus - powerful ?- no
Mars- in detriment= timid partner
Venus- young and beautiful

Hitler ended up marrying a young,beautiful and timid partner.

How will he interact with his wife/partner:

Mars the cusp ruler brings in a detriment 2nd lord- marriage did not bring any money.
Sun in sign of the L1 in 7th- he found someone totally submerged i his ego.
Vneus in ownsign but retrograde- the perks were good but the money was someone elses'.

Why is this so?

because 7th lord is in detriment, it’s dispositor venus is retrograde and unpredictable- so I am likely to choose the worst of any given set of options.
------------------------------------------------
House rulership effects: Hitler's Tropical and sidereal charts are both Libra ascendant.
:
Brihat Parashara Hora:

If the 1st lord is in 7th and a malefic- the native's wife will not live long, if a benefic: he will wander aimlessly,face penury and be dejected.He will alternatively become a king if the said planet is strong.

compare:

7th lord in 1st:

If thc 7th lord is in the ascendant, the native will go to others' wives,be wicked, skiiful,devoid of oourage-and affiicted by windy diseases.

2nd Lord in the 7th:
If the 2nd lord is in the 7th,the native will bea ddicted to others' wivea and be a doctor (?)

compare:

7th lord in 2nd:

lf the 7th lord is in the 2nd, the native will have many wives,will gain wealth through his wife and be procrastinating in nature.

10th lord in 7th:(note that in this case- sidereally, the 10th lord in not in 7th:but it is the 11th lord is in 7th)

:endowed with happiness through wifc,be intelligent,virtuous, eloquent,truthful and religious.

compare:

If the 7th lord is in the l0th, the nativewill beget a disobedient wife(modern version: the spose will have a career of her own),will be religious and endowed with wealth, sons etc.

11th lord in 7th:
If the 11th lord is in the 7th, the native will always gain through his wife's relatives,be liberal,virtuous,sensuous and will remain at the command of his spouse.

compare:

7th lord in 11th

If the the 7th lord is in the Ilth,the native will gain wealth through bis wife, be endowed with less happiness from sons etc. and will have daughters.


Tropical and Sidereal Saturn is 4th lord in 10th but in detriment( Jyotish does not consider detriment)

If the 4th lord is in the 10th, the native wilt enioy royal honours, be an alchemist, be extremely pleased,with enjoy pleasures and will conquer his five senses.

Hitler's alchemy was poison gas, the honours did not last.

PD
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Sun May 17, 2015 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi pankajdubey

there was a discussion in the general forum on a prediction made by k ernst krafft on hitler.. he used a chart with 20 aries rising to make his prediction and from what i could tell his sources for the rectified chart seemed solid.. this of course flies in the face of the double AA rating with the adb chart you linked to.
the thread can be found here - http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8742

this rectified krafft chart will have a different 10th house ruler and suggests venus/mars are in the 8th as instead of the 7th, and etc. etc. depending on how one wants to approach house systems, not to mention whether one looks at the chart in tropical or sidereal which will also change it!
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Mjacob



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Posted: Sun May 17, 2015 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is perhaps not such a good idea to use a controversial subject like Adolf Hitler as an example chart for an astrological principle. The debate has I believe seen more heat than light. From memory Libra rising rising is correct but some argue against the infamous Nazi being a charming Libra so come up with other times to suit their political credentials. The debate was long and tiresome and not worth dragging over the coals I reckon zzz
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mjacob wrote:
It is perhaps not such a good idea to use a controversial subject like Adolf Hitler as an example chart for an astrological principle. The debate has I believe seen more heat than light. From memory Libra rising rising is correct but some argue against the infamous Nazi being a charming Libra so come up with other times to suit their political credentials. The debate was long and tiresome and not worth dragging over the coals I reckon zzz


You could be right, Matthew but 7th house in his chart was rather tepid by comparison .


PD
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Tom
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Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just got back from a vacation and see that a six year-old thread has been revived. Nice. I also looked at what I wrote six years ago, and I’m not embarrassed by it. Wonderful.

Quote:
I wonder if the participants of this thread or new ones would explain the 7th house of Adolf hitler.

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Hitler,_Adolf

Also,
the 7th and 1st lord hovering around algol.



I have no problem using Hitler’s chart. Hitler has Libra rising. Venus is in 7 in Taurus conjunct Mars in Taurus. The Sun is also in 7 in Taurus. So we have Lord 1 in 7. Let’s look at her celestial state. Venus is in domicile – good, and that might be the last good thing we can say about her. She is retrograde. She is conjunct the lesser malefic in his detriment in a house with which he has analogy. Mars is war. The 7th house is war. Venus is square Saturn in Leo (detriment) in the 10th. In short, it will not be easy to find an ascendant ruler that is as battered as this one.

Her terrestrial state isn’t so hot either. She has some analogy with the 7th (conciliation), but Venus is not usually associated with enemies, wars, rivalries etc.

There are three planets in the 7th, four if we include Mercury. Morin wants the astrologer to choose the most influential planet in a house when there is more than one, to be the ruler of the house. First priority goes to Mars the debilitated ruler of the 7th cusp, also square Saturn (Morin considered prominent connected debilitated malefics a sign of war in a mundane chart) Mars is a pretty obvious choice for most influential planet, but late degrees are on the cusp, so Venus rules most of the house, and Venus is in domicile. So this battered Venus is going to help bring 7th house matters prominently into the life with the assistance of a debilitated god of war. The 7th house matters could be business rivalries, bitter lawsuits, bitter divorce, etc. However this native became a prominent world leader so war is a pretty good conclusion. The combination of the ruler of the debilitated ASC ruler with debilitated malefics associated with the 10th house (Sun rules 10 from 7 and disposits Saturn) are strong indications of the native bringing about war (or serious conflict, if he never made it to the world stage).

What is interesting is that the Aries Ingress chart for 1939 also had a Mars- debilitated Saturn connection. Mars was in Capricorn (exaltation) in mutual reception with Saturn in Aries (fall).

Then there is Algol, the star the Chinese associated with “piled up corpses.” Sixty million dead as a result of WWII meets that definition.

All in all this is not a pretty picture, even if we don’t know the outcome or who the native is.

One other point might be worth noting. In the book “Planetary Powers; The Morin Method,” author Patti Tobin Brittain, looks at Morin’s method, this way: “The house that is ruled is the cause and the house that the ruler occupies is the effect. I have some difficulties with this, but when it works, it seems pretty powerful. If we continue to look at the 7th as the house of war (this works equally well with simple conflict in an ordinary life), we see Hitler himself, Lady of the ASC, or his nature or motivating factors, as the cause and war as the effect. We see Mars ruler of the 7th (war) in the 7th. It’s both the cause and effect. But also Mars rules the 2nd and here we can flip something to the moderns. The second is self worth. Mars in detriment show problems in that area as the cause, and conflict is the result. Finally there is the Sun ruler of the 10th in the 7th. The career or status is the cause and conflict is the result. Shall we toss in Mercury? Fine Mercury on the 7th cusp is part of the result. Mercury rules the 9th (foreigners) and we can toss in his idea of foreigners being inferior to his race of Supermen also help bring about war. Mercury rules the 11th. He needs allies, supporters of the king (10th house) foreigners, too, and they too help bring about war.

With hindsight, and that is all that this is, it kind of makes things look inevitable.

I hope this has few errors as I don't have time to proofread at the moment.

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pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
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Posted: Wed May 20, 2015 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks.
The take on 7th house as war house fits in very well.
The reason I chose 7th house for wife/partner was that before he got famous this is what most astrologers would have looked at first.
As regards the war, he did not do very well in the first but was not responsible for it.It was the second WW that he created and played havoc with it.
His rise co-incided with his relationship with Eva Braun and ended the day they got married.
So, there is something about the institution of marriage( or the ritual) that this cart should be able to explain better.
How often we see people who have been together for a long time but get separated soon after getting married ??

PD
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Tom
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Posted: Wed May 20, 2015 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The reason I chose 7th house for wife/partner was that before he got famous this is what most astrologers would have looked at first.


This is true, and in the case of almost all of us this is sufficient. I can't start a war. But the 7th is more than the spouse. The 7th is lawsuits, rivalries, enemies, partners of all kinds and conflict. Hitler could and did start a war.

It is also true that if we were asked by his mother at his birth to delineate his chart, I doubt anyone would have said, "This child will start WWII."

As for the first world war. Hitler was a brave soldier. He didn't hesitate to fight. But Morin would argue that primary directions and solar returns would have shown us when, after prominence, the possibility of war would manifest. The nativity is "what." Prediction is "when."
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