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House Rulership in Traditional Astrology
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Jogi



Joined: 27 Aug 2008
Posts: 56
Location: Germany

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tom,

thank you for your words and for saying that it is even to you confusing Sad

Your explanations are profound and I think I have to reread them several times. The part about awareness is interesting and I`ll try to see it also this way.

But just one more thing. You wrote:
Quote:
Ruler of 7 in 1 motivates (first house) the native to seek a spouse. The first house motivates the native to engage in relationships (realization) and the outcome is a spouse or no spouse.

I think it`s the ruler of 1 in 7. For Zoller the 1st house and planets in it signify the Primary Motivation of the native, so the motivation (1st house) goes to the partner (7th house), the "flow" goes from 1 to 7 and the Native takes the action to seek a spouse.

Quote:
A good deal of the confusion could be alleviated if he would use words that are not synonymous to make his distinctions.

Thank you!

Hi Johannes,

Quote:
in my understanding the quotations of Zoller, your sentence is most problematic if not wrong.

I don`t think so, Johannes (at least I hope so). Here is Zoller`s part again:
Quote:
Realization is the reverse. The 1st house signifies the native’s life (vita). Each person has a certain kind of life (as we said above re: the martian kind of life). The kind of life we have is determined fist by the sign on the 1st house cusp and any planets in the 1st house. This may be modified by planets aspecting the 1st house cusp. The synthesis of all these factors we call the promise of the 1st house.
But so far we have merely delineated the “what” of the 1st house, i.e. What the 1st house promises. Will it be realized? Since the good or bad signified (promised) by a house emanates from the ruler of the house, we must look to the ruler of the 1st to see the source or origin of the promise of the 1st house. If the ruler of the 1st is fortunate and strong, the native will realize the promise of the 1st house; if weak and afflicted, he will not.

Please see the marked words.

Quote:
And what in all other houses he calls 'outcome' is in his nomenclature 'realisation' regarding the first,...

Sorry Johannes but that`s not really the case. Zoller says that every house contains a certain promise which can be realized or not: the 2nd promises money (or loss), the 7th promises partnership, the 10th a profession or reputation and so on. Realizaition is not limited to the 1st house.

Quote:
In the doctrine of Morin and his follower Zoller..

This may be my fault because I was not able to make it clear = we may not see Zoller as a follower of Morin allthough he mentions him! Above all he is an advocate of Medieval Astrology and lots of his teaching arise from the Arabs (e.g. Al Biruni) or from Guido Bonatti. And we know that Morin did not like the Arabs and he brought a lot of own ideas into his astrology.
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Tom
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Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But just one more thing. You wrote:
Quote:
Ruler of 7 in 1 motivates (first house) the native to seek a spouse. The first house motivates the native to engage in relationships (realization) and the outcome is a spouse or no spouse.

I think it`s the ruler of 1 in 7.


You're right. I accidentally reversed the numbers.

Tom
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janeg



Joined: 25 Nov 2008
Posts: 98

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi ... for the last few days I've been puzzling over how best to respond to the question of the difference between outcomes, realizations and causes. Zoller discusses them in DMA Lesson 6 but, as is easily seen from Jogi's direct quote, the language of the text isn't exactly clear and succinct. As a result, I went back to Zoller's Foundation Course where he was a little more straightforward in describing how to read a house.

To begin with, he describes a general approach to reading a house.

In good Medieval Aristotelian style we want answers to the questions" Whether it is, What it is, How it is and Why it is?

Let us say that we are interested in the 11th house. The General Approach guides us to see:
a) if the affairs of the house will be realised or not (i.e. whether the native will have friends?) [Whether it is]
b) What kind of friends the native will have
c) How the affairs associated with the house will manifest (e.g. what is the quality of the interaction between the native and his friends), and
d) Why this is so


I would equate realization to Whether it is? In the context of the 11th House: Will the house realize or produce friends? Will he or won't he have friends?

I think (b) and (c) What kind of friends? and How the affairs with friends will manifest relate to outcomes: What the native will actually experience in his life in relation to friends.

And (d) Why this is so with causes. Why do his experiences with friends happen the way the do?

Unfortunately, he doesn't delineate the house following the order a,b,c and d as listed above so the following is my re-arrangement of what he said to match the above.

a. Whether it is
Quote:

We can also use the ruler(s) to discover "Whether" the native has an 11th House (or any other house). While it is rare, it is possible to have a house "switched off" so that the native is denied that area of life.

The happens when all the rulers {by dignity} of a house are afflicted. Afflictions are of ten kinds according to Bonatti in 146 Considerations translated from the Latin by Coley and published by Lilly in 1675. Of these ten, four are most common: Planets are afflicted when retrograde, combust, cadent and conjunct, square or opposed a malefic Planet. If most of a house's rulers are afflicted and the few which are minor rulers (decan, term), there is still danger that the house affairs may not be operative or will operate with difficulty. A healthy, operative house has 1. All rulers angular, succedent and unafflicted. 2. The ruler(s) of the house in the house. 3. The ruler(s) of the house in favourable aspect to the benefics.


He looks at all the rulers of the 11th, the cusp is at 16 Capricorn: sign, exaltation, triplicity, term and decan. Saturn rules the Capricorn cusp, Mars is the exaltation ruler, Capricorn's triplicity rulers are Venus, Moon and Mars, Venus is the term ruler and Mars is the decan ruler.

So the 11th house rulers are: Saturn, Mars, Veus, Moon.
Saturn and Mars are afflicted by their mutual opposition and Mars is also combust Venus is in the 9th conjunct (5 deg) the MC therfore Angular, unafflicted. Moon is also Angular and unafflicted. So, because 2 of the 11th House cusp rulers are strong (angular) and unafflicted he concludes the native will have friends. The promise of the 11th, friends, will be realized.

b. What kind of friends will he have?

These are primarily described by the planets in the 11th: Mercury (learned), Sun (powerful), Mars (fighters).

He also ties in the house each planet rules. For example, Mars rules the 9th so he says the native's contentious (Mars) friends "have some sort of religious, educational or foreign connection i.e. they will be religious zealots or haters of religion, educators with zealous philosophical opinions, or aggressive or courageous persons of foreign birth possibly met during foreign journeys."

c. How he will interact with his friends?

"The native's social life will at best be loud (Martians like to make noise, slap each other on the back), magnanimous (Sun) and learned (Mercury)"

Saturn, the cusp ruler, in the 5th links the 5th with friends How will the native enjoy himself?. Answer: with friends. Note that here, the position of Saturn in the 5th takes precedence; he 'enjoys' (location, 5th house) himself with friends (11th, ruled).

d. Why this is so

Quote:

"The good or the bad signified by an {sic} house emanates from the ruler of the house." This does two very important things. It allows us to see connections and it answers the question "Why it is?"


In his delineation he says Mars dominates the 11th (it's the almuten); it is a combust malefic in opposition to its dispositor and cusp ruler, Saturn, the other malefic. He therefore 'spoils' the good of the house by introducing unresolved conflicts.

Saturn, the ruler of the cusp and Mars dispositor, shows us the why, the cause of the conflict. Saturn is in Leo, in detriment, "debilitated and nasty, a troublemaker who overstates his worth because of a profound sense of mediocrity. He aspires to be great but can't get there." and as Saturn is in the 7th from the 11th,

Quote:

"...shows that the frustrated egotism and power drive referred to above is operating in the context of the friends partnerships or dealings with others. In other words the cause {Zoller's emphasis} of the hostility marring the native's social life is due to the native's friends wanting to dominate others or running into disputes in connection with partnerships....
... And since the Sun and Mercury are also disposed by Saturn, the indication is that at different times in the native's life the same cause (Saturn in Leo) produces different 11th House experiences.


So from the above, realization refers to whether or not the significations of the house will occur in the life: will he have friends, money, a spouse, a career, etc. And the realization is shown by the strength of the sign rulers. Here, 2 rulers, Venus and the Moon were strong and unafflicted therefore the native would have friends. He also says its rare that a house is totally switched off so perhaps realization is a moot point.

Outcomes relate to the how and what. The manner in which the affairs of the house are realized: easily, with difficulty, by what means, etc. Mars, Mercury and the Sun showed what type of friends he had and how they interacted. Mars, in bad state, in the 11th, was working against the promise of the 11th; to impede 'the good' promised. And Saturn, the cusp ruler, was also working against the good of the house by being in bad state and in opposition to the 11th.

Causes relate to why the outcomes are as they are. He used the planet dispositing the planets in the house; and here, as in most cases, the cusp ruler, Saturn, is also the dispositor and its state and location indicated the cause of the contentions between his friends.

At least, that is how I understand what he's said.

He says much the same in DMA Lesson 6 although with more details.

Quote:

In judging a house, it is very important to keep in mind that position is stronger than rulership. While we have just been discussing rulership in the figure and there is more yet to be said about rulership in connection with houses, the position of planets in the house is {sic} far more impact than the strength of the ruler. The ruler will show something of the outcome, what will eventually eventuate, but the planets in the house are given preference because they will work for or against the realisation of the houses.


At first glance this seems to be the reverse of what he says in the Foundation Course but a closer read says the ruler will 'show something' .. i.e. it doesn't say everything about outcomes; planets in the house are 'given preference'. Which is essentially what he said in the Foundation Course, planets in the house give a stronger objective description of the house affairs than the cusp ruler. However, if there are no planets in the house, then we need to look to the cusp ruler for realization, outcomes and causes.

Hope that helps somewhat; again, it's my own read on what he's saying and I could be interpreting him incorrectly.
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yuzuru



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Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, Janeg
interesting and didactic post, thank you
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Olivia



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Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you both, Tom and Janeg for the explanations. At least those of us who don't speak English as a first language don't feel quite so illiterate in it anymore - and what you write makes a lot of sense.

I gave up on Zoeller after four or five of his shorter texts, and I really wasn't sure if it was because my English was lacking. I've read other highly technical texts in English and while they aren't easy, I can get the sense of them and work them out, even if it takes a bit of time.

The only clues I got with Zoeller in some places were when he said 'according to Ibn Ezra' or whoever, then I'd have to go look up Ibn Ezra to understand the point because Zoeller's writing style seems so - obtuse? perhaps.

Or maybe our Mercuries are square. Who knows? But I appreciate both of you for explaining what he said in a straightforward way.
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johannes susato



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Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

janeg wrote:

He looks at all the rulers of the 11th, the cusp is at 16 Capricorn: sign, exaltation, triplicity, term and decan. Saturn rules the Capricorn cusp, Mars is the exaltation ruler, Capricorn's triplicity rulers are Venus, Moon and Mars, Venus is the term ruler and Mars is the decan ruler.

So the 11th house rulers are: Saturn, Mars, Veus, Moon.


Hi Janeg,

this is really a phantastic insight of the teachings of Zoller you give us!

Only because Morin has been mentioned so much hitherto, it is perhaps important to refer to the fact, that Morin denied terms and decans. And also the triplicity rulers were dismissed and restored by the model of the rulers of the trigone, viz. the trigone of the elements.

So with Morin the house rulers in this case are: Saturn, Mars, (Saturn again), Venus and Mercury.
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Jogi



Joined: 27 Aug 2008
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Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Jane,

thank you for your excellent summary. It makes things clearer - maybe you should think about writing a book = "Zoller for Dummies" Very Happy .
I`ll go through the FC again - it has been a while - and recapitulate this lesson in particular. Fortunately most of the time I don`t have problems with Zoller`s style or his teachings (I find some of the quotations of Bonatti more difficult to understand). But in the case of outcome and realization he really managed to confuse me.

Jürgen
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johannes susato



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Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jogi wrote:
Sorry Johannes but that`s not really the case. Zoller says that every house contains a certain promise which can be realized or not: the 2nd promises money (or loss), the 7th promises partnership, the 10th a profession or reputation and so on. Realizaition is not limited to the 1st house.

Hi Jogi,

you won't find any sentence of me contradicting the sentence above. There must be a misunderstanding.

Every house is a promise, and its realization is to the planets. Zoller teaches, that there is a certain flow between the house of the planet's rulership and the planet's being. If and how the promise of a house comes to reality is shown and done by the planet, directly or indirectly. Zoller calls the coming-to-reality according to all houses 'outcome' but differentiates according to the special state of the first house and call its coming-to-reality 'realization'.

If you read your quotations of Zoller again attentively you will find, that it is as I wrote: It is the houses, viz. the first house on the one side and the rest of the houses on the other side, that cause the different terms! Zoller discerns between first house and all other houses. And what in all other houses he calls 'outcome' is in his nomenclature 'realisation' regarding the first, being the spring of the motives of the native himself becoming reality by or in the other houses (according to the lord of the asdendant and its status coelesticus, &c.).

It is not easy to follow Zoller and my indicating 'outcome' and 'realization' thus: [I] for 'outcome' and [II] for 'realization'. Once Zoller is using the term 'outcome' in the 3. quoted break - erroneously perhaps or because the term 'outcome' is for all houses in general, and 'realization' - being the special term - is exangeable by the general term 'outcome' and for this reason available for the first house too.


Quote:

“What is the difference between [I] “outcome” and [II] “realization?” “How is outcome shown?” “How is realization shown?”

As regards the difference between outcome and realization: [I] outcome is the result, what happens as a result, conceptually and possibly temporally after something else. In the course of explaining this, the concept of “flow” should become clearer.

[II] If I have the ruler of the 1st in the 7th, I want a partner (or interaction with others). First I have the motivation; then I act upon it. The outcome is that I find myself in relationships with other people. The focus of the astrologer is put on the ruler in the 7th in this case. The action (so to speak) is from the native (1st house) to the 7th. We use this kind of thinking when we say that [b]the native will seek to realize his Primary Motivation through the house position[/b], nature and zodiacal state of the ruler of the Ascendant.

Realization is the reverse. The 1st house signifies the native’s life (vita). Each person has a certain kind of life (as we said above re: the martian kind of life). The kind of life we have is determined fist by the sign on the 1st house cusp and any planets in the 1st house. This may be modified by planets aspecting the 1st house cusp. The synthesis of all these factors we call the promise of the 1st house.

But so far we have merely delineated the “what” of the 1st house, i.e. What the 1st house promises. Will it be realized? Since the good or bad signified (promised) by a house emanates from the ruler of the house, we must look to the ruler of the 1st to see the source or origin of the promise of the 1st house. If the ruler of the 1st is fortunate and strong, the native will realize the promise of the 1st house; if weak and afflicted, he will not.

Thus, the term [I] “outcome” may be best understood as indicating what results from a given house’s promise. [II] In the case of the 1st house, we can discuss this in terms of motivation, the native’s actions and desires. The ascendant ruler can be viewed as indicating the methods used to realize the promise of the house. [I] In the case of the other houses, we put aside all such psychology and speak of results, outcomes and causes. Thus, the ruler of the 2nd in the 11th links the native’s finances (2nd house) with his friends (11th house) How? That depends upon the specifics involved. First, What is the nature of the ruler of the 2nd? What is its zodiacal state? Important in this delineation is the recognition of what the planets do naturally (Sun bestows, burns up; Moon increases and decreases; Venus bestows; Jupiter bestows abundantly; Mercury can bestow or steal depending upon what it is connected with; Mars takes, if he can; Saturn will generally take). But in practice these delineations depend a great deal upon the zodiacal state and local determination of the planets involved.


Thus the nearly identical meaning of 'outcome' and 'realization' in the nomenclature of Zoller and the differentiating use of these terms concerning the first house in its singularity (realization) and conerning the rest of the houses (outcome) should be verified sufficiently - I hope.

Johannes
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janeg



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Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Johannes ...

Johannes wrote:

Every house is a promise, and its realization is to the planets. Zoller teaches, that there is a certain flow between the house of the planet's rulership and the planet's being. If and how the promise of a house comes to reality is shown and done by the planet, directly or indirectly. Zoller calls the coming-to-reality according to all houses 'outcome' but differentiates according to the special state of the first house and call its coming-to-reality 'realization'.


I'm afraid I disagree with you here, I don't believe Zoller was saying realization was a special state of outcomes that applied to only the 1st House.

Rather, I believe he is saying that an outcome show the what and how of a house; while realization shows whether it is i.e. realization refers to whether or not the good or bad promised by a house will manifest in the life while outcome refers to the manner in which it will manifest.

In the text you quoted, with regard to realization, he says "If the ruler of the 1st is fortunate and strong, the native will realize the promise of the 1st house; if weak and afflicted, he will not."

This is true for ALL houses, not just the 1st House. If the rulers of any house are strong i.e. angular or succedent, not retrograde, not afflicted by harsh aspects from the the malifics; then the good promised by the house will be realized. If the rulers are all weak and afflicted the house will not realize its promise i.e. the good, or bad, promised by the house will not be made manifest in the native's life; it may be even be 'switched off' and the native may have no experiences in that area of life.

What I believe he was trying to show, by emphasizing the 1st House, is that any connections to the 1st automatically resolve themselves into characteristics or motivations of the native; this is not the case for planets in the other houses.

For example, a bad Saturn in the 11th is descriptive of the friends. It is concerned with the realization of 11th House matters and not the native's life, per se. We are only justified in saying it is descriptive of the realization of the 1st and hence the native's life, character and motivations IF it rules the 1st, aspects the ruler of the 1st, the Asc degree or another planet in the 1st.
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johannes susato



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Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

janeg wrote:

I'm afraid I disagree with you here, I don't believe Zoller was saying realization was a special state of outcomes that applied to only the 1st House.

Rather, I believe he is saying that an outcome show the what and how of a house; while realization shows whether it is i.e. realization refers to whether or not the good or bad promised by a house will manifest in the life while outcome refers to the manner in which it will manifest.

What I believe he was trying to show, by emphasizing the 1st House, is that any connections to the 1st automatically resolve themselves into characteristics or motivations of the native; this is not the case for planets in the other houses.


Hi Janeg,

you believe to understand Zoller, but I don't know, what Zoller wants to tell, and I really can not understand, how it is possible that Morins's crystal-clear description of a new sight on this part of the astrology can be confused like this. So I stick to the facts and fact is, that Zoller himself states:
Quote:
Thus, the term [I] “outcome” may be best understood as indicating what results from a given house’s promise. [II] In the case of the 1st house, we can discuss this in terms of motivation, the native’s actions and desires. The ascendant ruler can be viewed as indicating the methods used to realize the promise of the house. [I] In the case of the other houses, we put aside all such psychology and speak of results, outcomes and causes.

Summarized:

1. “outcome” - results from a given house’s promise.
2. the 1st house - (motivation, actions and desires. ascendant ruler
indicating methods used to) - realize [= realization] the promise of the house.
3. the other houses - (we put aside all such psychology and speak of) - results, outcomes and causes.

Janeg, do you help me please to find where Zoller writes expressis verbis, that:
Quote:
realization refers to whether or not the good or bad promised by a house will manifest in the life ?

I can find this quotation in the first house context only .

Johannes
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Jogi



Joined: 27 Aug 2008
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Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Johannes,

you wrote:
Quote:
And what in all other houses he calls 'outcome' is in his nomenclature 'realisation' regarding the first, the spring of the motives of the native himself becoming reality by or in the other houses (according to the lord of the asdendant and its status coelesticus, &c.).

I thought you ment, that concerning the other houses, we cannot speak about realization - only in connection with the 1st house.

Quote:
It is the houses, viz. the first house on the one side and the rest of the houses on the other side, that cause the different terms! Zoller discerns between first house and all other houses.

Sorry Johannes, but I regret to say that you are wrong Sad . Every house has an outcome and every house has a realization (for good or bad). The only difference that Zoller makes concerning the 1st house is, that it shows the native himself (and only the 1st shows the native), his life and his motivations. In this regard you have to delineate it differently to all the other houses - but not when it comes to outcome or realization.
As Janeg already said, your 11th house can be realized or not - the question ist then:"Will I have friends?" Your 10th house can be realized or not:"Will I have a job/profession"? Realization is not restricted to the 1st house.

Quote:
Thus the nearly identical meaning of 'outcome' and 'realization' in the nomenclature of Zoller and the differentiating use of these terms concerning the first house in its singularity (realization) and conerning the rest of the houses (outcome) should be verified sufficiently - I hope.

As Janeg already stated in her excellent post: outcome and realization can be delineated for every house in the chart. And by the way: this was clear to me from the beginning and was in no way part of my initial question!

Quote:
Summarized:
1. “outcome” - results from a given house’s promise.
2. the 1st house - (motivation, actions and desires. ascendant ruler
indicating methods used to) - realize [= realization] the promise of the house.
3. the other houses - (we put aside all such psychology and speak of) - results, outcomes and causes.

Sorry Johannes, but you misunderstood Zoller totally!! What Janeg said in the last post is absolutely correct!
Have you already read Zoller`s Foundation Course and his DMA-Course?
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epurdue



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Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="johannes susato"]
janeg wrote:

Janeg, do you help me please to find where Zoller writes expressis verbis, that:
Quote:
realization refers to whether or not the good or bad promised by a house will manifest in the life ?

I can find this quotation in the first house context only .


Zoller mentions this all the time in his course. This most certainly applies to all houses.
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janeg



Joined: 25 Nov 2008
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Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Janeg, do you help me please to find where Zoller writes expressis verbis, that:
Quote:
realization refers to whether or not the good or bad promised by a house will manifest in the life ?

I can find this quotation in the first house context only .


Hi Johannes ...

Here is a quote from DMA Lesson 8 Delineation, it is in item 2 under General Method for Delineating a House

Quote:

What is the zodiacal state of the ruler of the house? Is it angular (strong) or succedent (still strong but only half as much), or cadent (weak)? If its zodiacal state is good and it is strong, the affairs of the house you are judging will be realized.


The reference is to any house you are judging and not just the 1st.

I hope that helps make it a bit clearer. Morin says something similar in Book 18, p94

Quote:

Each house "depends for its realization on the sign or the planet that occupies that space or House, on the planet that rules that House, and on the planets that are connected with the House ruler or that aspect that House"
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johannes susato



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Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jogi wrote:

Sorry Johannes, but you misunderstood Zoller totally!! What Janeg said in the last post is absolutely correct!

Hi Jogi,

you are obviously right as to Zollers total writings according outcome and realization, as I understand the quotations of Janeg now.

But I can't agree with you according your own quoting Zoller:
Quote:
Thus, the term “outcome” may be best understood as indicating what results from a given house’s promise. In the case of the 1st house, we can discuss this in terms of motivation, the native’s actions and desires. The ascendant ruler can be viewed as indicating the methods used to realize the promise of the house. In the case of the other houses, we put aside all such psychology and speak of results, outcomes and causes.
My summarization uses exactly Zoller's words and is in this narrow context not wrong but correct (me knowing now, that he doesn't repoduce exactly his own understanding in this quotation).
Quote:
Summarized:
1. “outcome” - results from a given house’s promise.
2. the 1st house - (motivation, actions and desires. ascendant ruler
indicating methods used to) - realize [= realization] the promise of the house.
3. the other houses - (we put aside all such psychology and speak of) - results, outcomes and causes.

But I understand now Zoller's use of both terms!

Perhaps a textbook or a curriculum as his should be more consistent in every part. The cited quotations were at least misleading the understanding of Zoller's thoughts. But that is not your fault. A very interesting insight indeed!

You are sure, you can live now with the fact, that all houses are (or can be) causes too? Very Happy

Johannes
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johannes susato



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Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

janeg wrote:
The reference is to any house you are judging and not just the 1st.
Hi janeg,

now I see, thanks a lot for your further quotation!

janeg wrote:
Morin says something similar in Book 18, p94
As I dont own the English translation: Can you help me again and quote this sentence in Section and chapter, please, or in page numbers of the Latin original? Thank you!
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