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Skyscript Astrology Forum

Associations of the New Planets in Tradition
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Edward
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Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:44 pm    Post subject: Associations of the New Planets in Tradition Reply with quote

Which traditional planets would you assign to the associations of the new planets? Do you have any idea how to find these?

Here's my attempt to describe the most common associations in traditional terms:

Uranus: Ingenuity and mental skills are due to a strong Mercury.

Eccentrics and extravagant individuals are mainly represented by a weak and afflicted Jupiter, which serves as Significator of Manners or which is Lord of the 1st or is placed therein. Why? Eccentrics want to stand out from the crowd - but they exaggerate this trait. Many of them are overdressed and tend to wear weird, bright colors like a peacock. And also they have to be wealthy, because otherwise they couldn't afford their extravagant style.

The difference between a Jupiterian eccentric and a Saturnian misfit is that the Jupiterian always socializes, whilst the Saturnian tends to isolate himself from others.

Neptune: Spirituality is a matter of a well placed Jupiter or a strong ninth house. The Sun might also play a role here in case of worldly wisdom.

Empathy is shown by a strong and potent Jupiter, the great benefic of mankind, in connection with the Moon, who represents the common people. Therefor the Moon must be in aspect with Jupiter, or otherwise in Jupiter's dignities.

Pluto: Destruction, "transformation" (=death), decay - Mars and Saturn.
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Mark
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Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Edward,

Interesting topic. I would be inclined to associate Mars with the negative aspects of Uranus too in terms of sudden, disruptive and possibly destructive change.

In Tarot the card known as the Lightning Struck Tower used to be attributed to Mars but is now often seen as symbolising Uranus by those working with astrological symbolism in the Major Arcana.

In terms of Pluto I think Saturn on its own is enough. I am not so sure about Saturn-Mars together = Pluto as I believe modern astrologers link Pluto to a very slow intense painful process. Doesn't the presence of Mars speed things up somewhat? Still, I have heard some astrologers claim Pluto can either burn you up or freeze you down so maybe you have a point. As I have never noticed Pluto having any effect in my natal chart I am not the best person to comment on that. Laughing
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kerenhappuch



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Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Edward,

You may also wish to look at the nature of the signs, and the nature of a particular planet in a particular sign, to draw links between the outers and the traditional planets.

My personal view is that while the outer planets do not rule signs and cannot be used as such, they do have an affinity with certain signs and planets, i.e. seeming to have similar "energy" and similar effects. I have found that the outer planets operate much as fixed stars do, albeit with a slightly larger orb.

Keren
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Edward
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Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarkC wrote:
In terms of Pluto I think Saturn on its own is enough. I am not so sure about Saturn-Mars together = Pluto as I believe modern astrologers link Pluto to a very slow intense painful process. Doesn't the presence of Mars speed things up somewhat? Still, I have heard some astrologers claim Pluto can either burn you up or freeze you down so maybe you have a point. As I have never noticed Pluto having any effect in my natal chart I am not the best person to comment on that. Laughing


Right, Pluto is often described as a "cold killer". This fits Mars in Scorpio, who is a "cold Mars" - but nonetheless, under the surface, Mars remains a beast.

Many of Pluto's associations, like nuclear bombings and violent death, are necessarily Martial.

Mars + Saturn = total destruction, decay and chronical diseases after nuclear bombings, etc.
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epurdue



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Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lee Lehman's "Book of Rulerships" has a table where she collates Al-Biruni's and several 17th century astrologer's rulership lists and compares them with Rex Bills' rulership lists and then noted which traditional planets had the significations given to the outer planets.

What was interesting, is that by far the two most prominent planets that shared significations were Venus and Saturn across the board. Mars was second, and the rest were distributed through the rest. To me it shows most outer planet associations are pretty random. At the very least this pokes a major hole in the "higher octave" idea.
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Edward
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Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mithra6 wrote:
Lee Lehman's "Book of Rulerships" has a table where she collates Al-Biruni's and several 17th century astrologer's rulership lists and compares them with Rex Bills' rulership lists and then noted which traditional planets had the significations given to the outer planets.

What was interesting, is that by far the two most prominent planets that shared significations were Venus and Saturn across the board. Mars was second, and the rest were distributed through the rest. To me it shows most outer planet associations are pretty random. At the very least this pokes a major hole in the "higher octave" idea.


Thanks for this hint, it might be useful to look at it afterwards.

But my main purpose with this thread was to explain the significators logically, rather than plainly citing them out of books.

Which of the modern associations, for example, would you ascribe to Venus - and why?
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Mark
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Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I have found that the outer planets operate much as fixed stars do, albeit with a slightly larger orb.


Hello Keren,

I agree. It seems to me the outer planets (and asteroids) serve a very similar role in modern astrology as fixed stars do in traditional astrology. In that sense I see the real comparison is between the traditional meanings of fixed stars compared to that role being taken by outer planets or asteroids now. I personally, haven't detected many positives coming out of the outer planets so I tend to view them as like malefic fixed stars in influence.

Its worth pointing out that traditional astrologers like Bonatti and Lilly used much bigger orbs for important fixed stars ( 5 degrees or more) than the 1 degree commonly used today.
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epurdue



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Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edward wrote:

Which of the modern associations, for example, would you ascribe to Venus - and why?


I don't use the outer planets or asteroids at all. I don't know precisely which associations went to the various planets since Lee just tabulated the results. From a purely numerical standpoint:

Uranus - 4 Sun, 0 Moon, 1 Mercury, 1, Venus, 4 Mars, 2 Jupiter, 2 Saturn
Neptune - 1 Sun, 5 Moon, 2 Mercury, 4 Venus, 0 Mars, 0 Jupiter, 7 Saturn
Pluto - 1 Sun, 1 Moon, 1 Mercury, 4 Venus, 5 Mars, 2 Jupiter, 6 Saturn

Basically the traditional associations come down to understanding the planetary natures. For instance if Saturn signifies death, is cold and dry, rules the bitter taste and poisons, and you know it is the greater malefic. Keeping this in mind, it makes sense why for instance he rules wormwood, hemlock, graves, loss, and so on. If you're doing a chart and Saturn is in 2nd house, it's generally not good for your finances.

Understanding the planetary natures helps clear up the confusion many astrologers have today with rulerships - particularly with things like computers because people do many different things with them. If you think about it, what is a computer? It's a device that handles many calculations a second. Mercurial. People confuse what something is as opposed to things you do with it. Computer games and porn is Venusian. Porn is porn and games are games. E-books are Mercurial. You read books regardless if they are on a screen or on paper.
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GR



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Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 5:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Associations of the New Planets in Tradition Reply with quote

Edward wrote:

Uranus: Ingenuity and mental skills are due to a strong Mercury.


Makes sense.

Edward wrote:

Eccentrics want to stand out from the crowd


Wouldn't that be, at least in part, the Sun?

Edward wrote:

The difference between a Jupiterian eccentric and a Saturnian misfit is that the Jupiterian always socializes, whilst the Saturnian tends to isolate himself from others.


Clowns are Saturnian, that doesn't jive with what you're proposing.

Edward wrote:

Neptune: Spirituality is a matter of a well placed Jupiter or a strong ninth house. The Sun might also play a role here in case of worldly wisdom.


Depends, Jupiter would be more the priesthood while Venus would be more religious practice.
The Sun, according to, I believe, Valens, is more for archpriests, like the Pope would be now.

Edward wrote:

Empathy is shown by a strong and potent Jupiter, the great benefic of mankind, in connection with the Moon, who represents the common people. Therefor the Moon must be in aspect with Jupiter, or otherwise in Jupiter's dignities.


More the Moon maybe, but this is a bit muddled. Jupiter by its nature supports things as it supports life, for example, so if you mean that sort of supporting people's emotional states as 'empathy' then it might matter. The Moon would be more the perception of someone's emotions, so if that's what you mean ...

Edward wrote:

Pluto: Destruction, "transformation" (=death), decay - Mars and Saturn.


Well, Saturn would be death proper. Mars would be more like killing, public execution, Saturn more like secret murdering.
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PFN



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Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mars is all about violence, heat, movement, accidents.

Saturn is decay, the natural proccess.

Now, there is some confusion wether things are mercurial or jupiterian.

For example, is a simple book ruled by Jupiter or by Mercury?

Sometimes, by both, even in a indistinguishble way, as in the case of a rose (Mars+Venus).

Anyway, I think Jupiter is the least comprehended planet nowadays. I, for instance, would benefit greatly if someone could give a lecture on Jupiter alone, without attributing to it things that fall under the domain of Mercury, Sun, Moon or even Saturn.
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Edward
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Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mithra6 wrote:
I don't use the outer planets or asteroids at all. I don't know precisely which associations went to the various planets since Lee just tabulated the results. From a purely numerical standpoint:

Uranus - 4 Sun, 0 Moon, 1 Mercury, 1, Venus, 4 Mars, 2 Jupiter, 2 Saturn
Neptune - 1 Sun, 5 Moon, 2 Mercury, 4 Venus, 0 Mars, 0 Jupiter, 7 Saturn
Pluto - 1 Sun, 1 Moon, 1 Mercury, 4 Venus, 5 Mars, 2 Jupiter, 6 Saturn

Basically the traditional associations come down to understanding the planetary natures. For instance if Saturn signifies death, is cold and dry, rules the bitter taste and poisons, and you know it is the greater malefic. Keeping this in mind, it makes sense why for instance he rules wormwood, hemlock, graves, loss, and so on. If you're doing a chart and Saturn is in 2nd house, it's generally not good for your finances.

Understanding the planetary natures helps clear up the confusion many astrologers have today with rulerships - particularly with things like computers because people do many different things with them. If you think about it, what is a computer? It's a device that handles many calculations a second. Mercurial. People confuse what something is as opposed to things you do with it. Computer games and porn is Venusian. Porn is porn and games are games. E-books are Mercurial. You read books regardless if they are on a screen or on paper.


Tell me, which particular associations of the New Planets do you think can be ascribed to Venus?

Where's something Venusian in Uranus or Pluto?

For example, I can only see something Venusian in Neptune - which is nowadays said to rule Pisces, the exaltation of Venus.
Friendliness and gentleness which are now ascribed to Neptune, are Venusian in a positive sense; drugs, harlotry and any sort of sweet-tasting self-destruction are Venusian in a negative sense.

I don't doubt that computer games are partially of the Nature of Venus. Remember that computers in general are ruled by Mercury (nowadays said to be ruled by Uranus), because the aim of computers is to serve mankind and to facilitate calculations - so computer games are half Mercurial, half Venusian.


Last edited by Edward on Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Olivia



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Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clowns per Lilly = country day labourers, rednecks, etc. per modern usage.

Though the circus kind are so creepy, I think Saturn stands a fair chance there, too.
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Mark
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Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Edward,

I feel we are approaching this the wrong way round. Many contributers to Skyscript dont work with the outer planets so asking them them about outer planet associations is a bit pointless.

I suggest it might be more productive to list various associations you see as linked to the outer planets separately and let people here give you the traditional planet linked to that matter, or quality. Just a suggestion.

I think Mithras6 made a perfectly reasonable suggestion for you to follow up your interest in this area with Lee Lehman's Book. Have you got it?

Mark
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Edward
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Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Associations of the New Planets in Tradition Reply with quote

GR wrote:


Wouldn't that be, at least in part, the Sun?


The Sun's main purpose is power and dominion over others, whilst Jupiter does not long for rulership. I would say, fame and prominence in general are Jupiterian - of course, a mighty king as signified by the Sun is necessarily famous, too.

GR wrote:

Clowns are Saturnian, that doesn't jive with what you're proposing.


Do you want to say that clowns and eccentrics are the same? A clown is someone who does a profession - in his normal life he might be a totally ordinary, unobtrusive person.

GR wrote:

Depends, Jupiter would be more the priesthood while Venus would be more religious practice.
The Sun, according to, I believe, Valens, is more for archpriests, like the Pope would be now.


Where, do you think, is the connection between Spirituality and high thoughts with Venus?

Jupiter in general stands for religion, spirituality and wisdom of all sorts - he is in all matters a more eminent figure than Venus.
Venus on the contrary doesn't share Jupiter's high ambitions for mankind, but she is much more decent, gentle and content within her social life.

GR wrote:

More the Moon maybe, but this is a bit muddled. Jupiter by its nature supports things as it supports life, for example, so if you mean that sort of supporting people's emotional states as 'empathy' then it might matter. The Moon would be more the perception of someone's emotions, so if that's what you mean ...


The Moon on herself is vague and unsteady - only the connection with a benefic Jupiter makes her serve for high morals, virtue and friendliness to society in general (remember, the Moon is also significator of the common people).
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Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How about leaving the sublunary world to the visible planets? The unseen outer planets could serve as the outsiders who affect that world – alter and transform it; ruin or destroy elements of it. Psychologically, the outers could act similarly upon people mentally, emotionally and spiritually. The visible planets could describe the world; the hidden outer planets could change the world.
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