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Associations of the New Planets in Tradition
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GR



Joined: 14 May 2005
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Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Olivia wrote:
Clowns per Lilly = country day labourers, rednecks, etc. per modern usage.


Day laborers and rednecks would be saturnian, too, come to think of it.

Olivia wrote:

Though the circus kind are so creepy, I think Saturn stands a fair chance there, too.


Indeed. Smile
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Edward
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Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello MarkC

MarkC wrote:
With respect I dont think that approach is going to take you very far with traditional astrologers. I feel we are approaching this the wrong way round. Many contributers to Skyscript dont work with the outer planets so asking them them about outer planet associations is a bit pointless.

I suggest it might be more productive to list various associations you see as linked to the outer planets separately and let people here give you the traditional planet linked to that matter, or quality. Just a suggestion.


No, I don't think I was too harsh.

For myself, I consider the traditional planets only - I do not even draw the modern planets in the chart.
This topic came up in my mind as soon as Modern Astrologers asked me if there is an equivalent to the modern planets in Tradition.

It is no shame for a traditional astrologer not to know the associations of the modern planets.
But as soon as he gets confronted with them, the traditional astrologer must be able to assign each of the associations to the traditional planets, and explain his decision logically - otherwise he would have to admit that traditional astrology is incomplete, or his astrological thinking not so sound.
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GR



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Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 9:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Associations of the New Planets in Tradition Reply with quote

Edward wrote:

The Sun's main purpose is power and dominion over others, whilst Jupiter does not long for rulership.

I would say, fame and prominence in general are Jupiterian - of course, a mighty king as signified by the Sun is necessarily famous, too.


While I'd probably agree with the first sentence, the Sun has a long and well documented association with "fame and prominence in general", though it can be said that Jupiter and Saturn can share in it, through their particular significations.

Edward wrote:

Do you want to say that clowns and eccentrics are the same? A clown is someone who does a profession - in his normal life he might be a totally ordinary, unobtrusive person.


Not necessarily. "Eccentric" is, for one, a very vague word. Two, someone who is a "public eccentric", may, in fact, be playing it up for attention, much like a clown, or actor, or other such perfomer, thus lining up with Saturn. Third, a hit man is someone who does a profession; maybe he also loves his wife and his dog, but he still kills people for money. I think you're looking for some apparent essentiality, but in all the wrong place, or better to say, with a great number of unobserved preconceptions.

Edward wrote:

Where, do you think, is the connection between Spirituality and high thoughts with Venus?



Didn't say anything about 'high thoughts', I meant what I said, religious practice is Venus. When you go to church every Sunday and do your novenas on the right feast days, this is a venusian act. If you had a vision of the Madonna, that would be Jupiter, probably with some lunar influence thrown in. Jupiter rules gnosis.

Edward wrote:

Jupiter in general stands for religion, spirituality and wisdom of all sorts - he is in all matters a more eminent figure than Venus.
Venus on the contrary doesn't share Jupiter's high ambitions for mankind, but she is much more decent, gentle and content within her social life.


Oooh, Aphrodite is going to make you fall in love with a mean old lady for the things you said about her!

Edward wrote:

The Moon on herself is vague and unsteady


The "schoolmistress of all that occurs in the world"?

Edward wrote:

- only the connection with a benefic Jupiter makes her serve for high morals, virtue and friendliness to society in general (remember, the Moon is also significator of the common people).


And queens, goddesses, and Fortune. I'm going to agree with Mark, you're going about this the wrong way.
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Mark
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Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
For myself, I consider the traditional planets only - I do not even draw the modern planets in the chart. This topic came up in my mind as soon as Modern Astrologers asked me if there is an equivalent to the modern planets in Tradition.

It is no shame for a traditional astrologer not to know the associations of the modern planets. But as soon as he gets confronted with them, the traditional astrologer must be able to assign each of the associations to the traditional planets, and explain his decision logically - otherwise he would have to admit that traditional astrology is incomplete, or his astrological thinking not so sound.


In which case what we really need to be discussing is knowing the traditional associations of the planets. As long as a traditional astrologer knows that there isn't a problem. The outer planets are really quite irrelevent in that sense. Its certainly not going to matter to clients. However, I gather your focus is engaging in dialogue with modernist astrologers?

Surely, though we can do this on a case by case basis?

This has already been stated well by Mithra6:

Quote:
Basically the traditional associations come down to understanding the planetary natures. For instance if Saturn signifies death, is cold and dry, rules the bitter taste and poisons, and you know it is the greater malefic. Keeping this in mind, it makes sense why for instance he rules wormwood, hemlock, graves, loss, and so on. If you're doing a chart and Saturn is in 2nd house, it's generally not good for your finances.

Understanding the planetary natures helps clear up the confusion many astrologers have today with rulerships - particularly with things like computers because people do many different things with them. If you think about it, what is a computer? It's a device that handles many calculations a second. Mercurial. People confuse what something is as opposed to things you do with it. Computer games and porn is Venusian. Porn is porn and games are games. E-books are Mercurial. You read books regardless if they are on a screen or on paper.


I must concur with GR your comment to Mithra6 was really quite unpleasant. You may not see it that way but many people here will. Its unecessary personalised comments like that that create flame wars and gives the moderators here extra work they dont need.
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epurdue



Joined: 14 Nov 2007
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Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah I thought about responding, but I decided it wouldn't add anything.
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Edward
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Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GR wrote:
While I'd probably agree with the first sentence, the Sun has a long and well documented association with "fame and prominence in general", though it can be said that Jupiter and Saturn can share in it, through their particular significations.


The sort of "fame" you mean could simply be "honours from the king" or convenience with mighty men.

Where's the difference between the Sun and Jupiter? A mighty tyrant, as possibly shown by the Sun, is famous, but by no means esteemed by society. The Sun's desire for rulership shows most clearly, when the Sun combusts another planet - the other planet gets totally overpowered by the Sun.

So whilst the Sun mainly aims for rulership and dominion, Jupiter's aim is fame and esteem in society.

For example, celebrities - the rich and famous, the "creme de la creme" of society today - are signified by Jupiter, not by the Sun. They aren't kings or presidents, nor necessarily honoured by them.

How can Saturn in his essence stand for richness, fame or honours? His nature is contrary to them!

GR wrote:
Not necessarily. "Eccentric" is, for one, a very vague word. Two, someone who is a "public eccentric", may, in fact, be playing it up for attention, much like a clown, or actor, or other such perfomer, thus lining up with Saturn.


Alright, you say that eccentrics and clowns are the same, and because you think that clowns are Saturnian, eccentrics must be, too.

But how can a socialized eccentric or extravagant individual naturally be Saturnian? His aim is to stand out from the crowd, not to completely isolate himself from others - the same with arrogant people, posers and peacocks. They are Jupiterian (in a negative sense), not Saturnian.

Besides, how can a "clown" - in today's definition - be of Saturnian Nature?

Nowadays a professional clown is some kind of actor, who has the aim to infect other people with joviality, to make other people laugh, and also, but not necessarily always, to teach wisdom with humour - a bit in the manner of the Nasreddim Hodscha, the legendary "divine clown", who often appears more like a merry, careless fool than like a wise man.
These things are all of Sanguine nature - warm and moist - and hence associated with Jupiter.

Regardless of what he is like in real life - the clown represents a Sanguine, jolly character, who wears wide, Jupiterian clothes with gaudy, bright, Jupiterian colors, and of course he intentionally stands out from the crowd.

How can humour and merriness be Saturnian? Saturn's essence is coldness, darkness, dryness and severity; not warmth, brightness, moistness and joviality.

GR wrote:
Didn't say anything about 'high thoughts', I meant what I said, religious practice is Venus. When you go to church every Sunday and do your novenas on the right feast days, this is a venusian act. If you had a vision of the Madonna, that would be Jupiter, probably with some lunar influence thrown in. Jupiter rules gnosis.


Could you show me a reference - if possible on Skyscript? I would be glad to see where Venus gets associated with religion and spirituality.

I know the Arabs stated that Venus signifies the Islam in particular - I don't know if this applies to Christianity and all the other Religions. In general, it is Jupiter that signifies Religion and Spirituality.


Last edited by Edward on Sat Mar 14, 2009 8:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarkC wrote:

In which case what we really need to be discussing is knowing the traditional associations of the planets. As long as a traditional astrologer knows that there isn't a problem. The outer planets are really quite irrelevent in that sense. Its certainly not going to matter to clients. However, I gather your focus is engaging in dialogue with modernist astrologers?


Hey Mark, there's no need to play the diplomat in an astrologers' forum - we are here to discuss astrological things, and not to take everything for granted without any discussion.

I'm still of the opinion, that a Traditional Astrologers must be able to assign each of the Modern Planets' associations to the Traditional ones, when he gets confronted with them.

Otherwise he would insinuate that traditional astrology is incomplete and in need of the Outer Planets!
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Deb
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Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edward, it IS necessary for people to be diplomatic in this forum, and I’m a little reluctant to contribute to this thread because the sense of tolerance and consideration that we need in order to develop helpful and illuminating discussion is in danger of collapsing. But I realise you are a new member so I think we should draw a line under the previous comments that have gone close to the edge (and a little beyond). There is no point in engaging in ‘tit-for-tat’ “how can you possibly believe …?” type of comments, and the conversation is drifting away from the main theme listed under the topic title.

So, to be clear (for everyone): before posting to this thread, please consider whether any of your comments are likely to seem rude or disrespectful. If in doubt, leave it out. In a moment I am going to delete some of the earlier comments that were ‘unhelpful’.

Quote:
you read in Christian Astrology I, that "clowns" are listed under Saturn, and from thence concluded that modern clowns must be of Saturnian Nature, too - without carefully regarding the context and considering the possibility that Lilly's meaning of "clown" could be a different one than we commonly use today.


This is a bit of a side issue, and I thought that Olivia made this point earlier, but just in case anyone doesn’t understand, when Lilly uses the word ‘clown’, he doesn’t mean a circus clown, but an uneducated peasant or ill-bred country rustic. This is the way that the word was usually understood in the 17th century. We can see that he means to imply a behaviour trait rather than career because he uses the word where he talks about the ‘quality of men’ that Saturn describes, rather than including it in the following paragraph on ‘profession’ (CA., p.59). Also he talks about the signification of Jupiter when it applies to an ‘ordinary clown’ on p.84 – saying that such a person has more humanity than we usually find in such men.

So no, he doesn’t mean the circus clown; but Olivia’s comment that she find’s circus clowns quite creepy, and so a little Saturnian, is still interesting. Clowns do seem to be quite frightening and evocative of fear for many people. I think the element that creates this is the way that they whiten their faces. I once did some informal research into the charts of people who were known for the ‘whitening’ their faces, as an exploration of their Saturn themes. Elizabeth I, for example did it to create a sense of the ‘untouchable’, so that the common people would see her like a marble god. The biography of serial killer Dennis Nilsen also reveals how he used to whiten his face and spend hours fascinated by the morbid pallor reflected in the mirror. So this aspect of the circus clown is, I think, tied into the Saturn theme, even though they are supposed to be the entertaining, merry figures that you describe.
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GR



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Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Part of this rather simplistic attribution of 'fame' to either one planet or another is the assumption that all fame is the same, all of the same quality. This is just not true. This kind of simple, almost mechanical thinking has stricken "Traditional Astrology"TM , which is in itself a coinage that requires quite a bit of parsing.

Edward wrote:

How can Saturn in his essence stand for richness, fame or honours? His nature is contrary to them!


Saturn clearly gives fame when it involves handling the matters of others, as attested in Valens, as well as Bonatti.

GR wrote:
Not necessarily. "Eccentric" is, for one, a very vague word. Two, someone who is a "public eccentric", may, in fact, be playing it up for attention, much like a clown, or actor, or other such perfomer, thus lining up with Saturn.


Edward wrote:

Alright, you say that eccentrics and clowns are the same, and because you think that clowns are Saturnian, eccentrics must be, too.


No, I said they can be. Please read what I wrote again.

Edward wrote:

Nowadays a professional clown is some kind of actor ...


Actors are saturnine. In ancient days they were regarded as low class people. If you look at the gossip pages, you'll see how similarily they are regarded now. And yet you know who they are, is that not fame?

Edward wrote:

How can humour and merriness be Saturnian? Saturn's essence is coldness, darkness, dryness and severity; not warmth, brightness, moistness and joviality.


Ever watch any British comedy? Or maybe some George Carlin?

GR wrote:

Could you show me a reference - if possible on Skyscript? I would be glad to see where Venus gets associated with religion and spirituality.


Unfortunately this is more Valens again, he states that Venus makes rites of the priesthood and rites of purification. It isn't a stretch to say that these are the practice of religious rituals, which fit my previous examples of the Mass and the novenas.

The signification of Saturn to clowns and actors, etc. is either in Firmacus Maternus or someone else of that period, I can't seem to place it at the moment.
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Papretis



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Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The best description of Jupiter I’ve recently read is in Michael Ward’s Planet Narnia read in companion with The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe (the “Jupiter book” in the Narnia series) by C. S. Lewis. Lewis shows us how Jupiter signifies pomp and glory and good-hearted, merciful rulers. A Jovial person in his highest form is ready to give his own life for his people. A real revelation for me was when Ward explained blood associated with the sanguine / Jovial temperament to be innocent blood, sacrificed for saving someone else. A merrier version of that bright Jovial red is Father Christmas, and in general Christmas is a very Jovial festival – of giving gifts, having warm feelings toward each other, getting together and forgetting old resentments at least for a moment.

Humor could be Jovial in its most innocent and child-like form, like in Little House in Prairie, everyone laughing heartily at the end. But Monty Python is completely something else. “Grown up humor” always has its darker side, and that’s the core of it – combining absurd, even frightening things so that laugh is the only safe outlet. And that is not Jupiter, that’s Saturn. I cannot comment on clowns except that they usually have a tear painted on their faces and their mouth goes downward. People laugh when the clown makes something stupid or gets hurt – Saturn again.

Jupiter is somehow too innocent and naïve a figure for our cynic culture. Christianity and especially the New Testament are full of Jovial ideas and symbols:
Quote:
5 “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.
6 “Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.
7 “Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.
8 “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
9 “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Matthew 5)

In modern astrology Jupiter is seen signifying excess and unrestraint, but traditionally it’s completely the opposite: it signifies modesty, prudence, thankfulness, reverencing aged men… things that make you an easy target for mockery. Today qualities of this kind are seen as weaknesses. Being kind is an antithesis for being cool.
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Olivia



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Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ptolemy also talks about the religious signification of Venus. It's somewhere around page 60 if you've got the Ashmand translation - the section on eclipses, I think.

One more time - the clowns that Lilly was talking about bear no relation to circus clowns - see Deb's post above.
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Edward
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Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb wrote:
So no, he doesn’t mean the circus clown; but Olivia’s comment that she find’s circus clowns quite creepy, and so a little Saturnian, is still interesting. Clowns do seem to be quite frightening and evocative of fear for many people. I think the element that creates this is the way that they whiten their faces. I once did some informal research into the charts of people who were known for the ‘whitening’ their faces, as an exploration of their Saturn themes. Elizabeth I, for example did it to create a sense of the ‘untouchable’, so that the common people would see her like a marble god. The biography of serial killer Dennis Nilsen also reveals how he used to whiten his face and spend hours fascinated by the morbid pallor reflected in the mirror. So this aspect of the circus clown is, I think, tied into the Saturn theme, even though they are supposed to be the entertaining, merry figures that you describe.


The fact that some person - no matter who he is - finds some thing frightening does not mean that this thing must be Saturnian.

For example, I might find a horse (signified by Jupiter) scary, because I don't like long heads - so, are horses now Saturnian? Are horses made to scare humans to death?

"Clowns" who act in horror films like It are not real clowns, but Saturnian horror creatures with clown-like clothes - their aim is to make people scared, not to amuse them.

Here's the definition of a modern "clown" in Wikipedia:
Clowns are comical performers, stereotypically characterized by their grotesque appearance: colored wigs, stylistic makeup, outlandish costumes, unusually large footwear, etc., who entertain spectators by acting in a hilarious fashion. Types of their acts vary greatly. Some children find clowns very scary.

If you find something scary, you can't find it funny at all, and vice versa.

By the way, do you find the clowns on the picture on the right scary? Those are about as scary as Krusty from the Simpsons, a children's hero.
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Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GR wrote:
Part of this rather simplistic attribution of 'fame' to either one planet or another is the assumption that all fame is the same, all of the same quality. This is just not true.


Well, I was not the one to state that the Sun and Jupiter would both represent fame...

As I said, the Sun mainly aims for rulership and dominion, whilst Jupiter longs for fame (popularity) and esteem in society.

GR wrote:
Saturn clearly gives fame when it involves handling the matters of others, as attested in Valens, as well as Bonatti.


Saturn - in his essence - is absolutely contrary to any form of fame, honours or richness.
Hence Saturn's association with day-labourers, beggars and outsiders - this sort of people doesn't seem to be very inclined to fame or any kind of popularity.

GR wrote:
No, I said they can be. Please read what I wrote again.


You still haven't told what you think eccentrics and clowns have in common.

Again: Why should socialized eccentrics or extravagant individuals be of Saturnian nature?

GR wrote:
Actors are saturnine. In ancient days they were regarded as low class people. If you look at the gossip pages, you'll see how similarily they are regarded now. And yet you know who they are, is that not fame?


Times seem to have changed.
Actors - at least Hollywood actors - are anything but low class. Nearly everyone of them is rich and famous, and belongs to the "creme de la creme" of society.

GR wrote:
Ever watch any British comedy? Or maybe some George Carlin?


Do you think that humour - something warm and moist - can in essence be Saturnian?

Humour in general is something warm and moist and hence Sanguine and Jupiterian. The term joviality expresses this most clearly - it's something benefic to mankind

Saturn himself is not inclined to making jokes or to being funny, he is rather austere and sad. Saturn's variation of humour is always severe, or deals with death and the dark sides of lifes - this doesn't make humour in itself something Saturnian.

So, dry humour and severe (black) humour can be seen as a melancholic/Saturnian variation of humour in general.
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###



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Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You still haven't told what you think eccentrics and clowns have in common.

Try this: They are both outside the norm and serve to parody the norm – or rather, that which is comfortably believed to be the norm. They are like sinister fun house mirrors. I would tend to go with the Mercury trickster, but Mercury with some added Saturn and Luna.
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Olivia



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Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edward wrote:

Could you show me a reference - if possible on Skyscript? I would be glad to see where Venus gets associated with religion and spirituality.

I know the Arabs stated that Venus signifies the Islam in particular - I don't know if this applies to Christianity and all the other Religions. In general, it is Jupiter that signifies Religion and Spirituality.


In Ibn Ezra in The Beginning of Wisdom, it's Saturn for Jews, Jupiter for Christians, and Venus for Islam. Picatrix follows this, too, as do many other authors.

Religion in the big sense is house 9.

But per Ptolemy, Valens, and most everyone I've read, 'religious practise in general' goes to Venus, regardless of which religion you follow. With the Greeks, some religious practise goes to the 11th house, as it's the third from the 9th (how well you've learnt how to put your religious training into practise). Religions out-of-favour, or heresies, go to house 3 (Lilly, and others).
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