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Here's an article of an Indian astrologer on the "trans-Saturnian" planets.
http://shyamasundaradasa.com/jyotish/re ... an_eng.pdf
The 'Vedic' part isn't too dominating, so it is very readable for Western traditional astrologers, who don't use the modern planets either.
I do look at the (three) modern planets but only in transits. However I try to do as little as possible with them. I don't use them in the natal chart and in progressions and directions.

The article mentions something on the issue of the modern planets as being 'octaves' of the traditional planets.
The article wrote:This idea of "higher octave" is fallacious. All the planets, not just Venus, Mercury and Mars, have their own higher octaves and if the astrologer actually knows the subject he can determine this.
An interesting view. So these planets can manifestate on different levels, from the most concrete to the most abstract.

I'm not sure what to do when a new planet is used. On one side I don't think it should necessarily be catagorized using one of the traditional planets. On the other hand the qualities of the traditional planets on their turn were classified by Ptolemy using the four temperaments. This could also be applied to the new planets.

In practice the only 'new' planets I use (in transits) are Uranus, Neptune and Pluto. I have the impression that they 'work', but I don't have that the asteroids. Especially now Pluto is classified as an asteroid, I feel a bit annoyed that such a little 'icy rock' can work.

I've been trying to study my past events/important periods using only Jupiter and Saturn transits. Even though there are some 'gaps', I think these transits are very essential, perhaps even more important than the transits of the moderns, even while the mood changes that accompany these are quite strong.

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Olivia wrote:In Ibn Ezra in The Beginning of Wisdom, it's Saturn for Jews, Jupiter for Christians, and Venus for Islam. Picatrix follows this, too, as do many other authors.
So Ibn Ezra - a Muslim - stated that Venus signifies Islam. Did the other authors really see this similarly? I don't think Muslims are known for beeing very peaceful and women-friendly.
I would be inclined to say that the Muslims are more probably signified by Mars, since throughout their history they proved as a rather aggressive people of invaders.

As for Jews, I don't know much about them. But they were often seen as malefics in the past so this might be the reason why they are said to be signified by Saturn.

Jupiter for the Occidental Christians seems to fit. The Christians were known for their wisdom and their prominence in the world at their time. Jupiter rules the good and divine things.

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Ibn Ezra was a Jew. A rabbi. Who wrote massive commentaries on the Torah. And he said that Saturn is Judaism, Christianity is Jupiter, and Islam is Venus.

So did some other Jewish astrologers, like Sahl. And this Jewish astrologer agrees with them. I question giving a benefic to Christianity, but I do see the parallel between Zeus and Jesus. Still, it was mostly based on timing, not malefic/benefic.

The holy day theory only works with Judaism and Islam (Saturday and Friday, respectively), Christians have Sunday, but would have Thursday if it went by that - though it doesn't.

Most of the Islamic astrological writings we have available to us now came out of as close as we can come to a 'Golden Age'. If it hadn't been for Islam, a LOT of sciences and other knowledge would be lost to us completely. And for a time there, before history went and changed again, translating this stuff often depended on having people who were fluent in Persian, Arabic, Hebrew, and Latin.

Mostly it was in Spain that all this happened, then there was a conquest (can't remember who at the moment), the country went pretty much straight Christian, and Christians, Muslims, and Jews were no longer translating things together, and Muslims and Jews were no longer allowed to associate with Christians - then the expulsions happened. But for a time there, it was actually pretty civilised. May we have such an age again in our lifetimes.
Last edited by Olivia on Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Hello edward,
So Ibn Ezra - a Muslim - stated that Venus signifies Islam. Did the other authors really see this similarly? I don't think Muslims are known for beeing very peaceful and women-friendly.
I would be inclined to say that the Muslims are more probably signified by Mars, since throughout their history they proved as a rather aggressive people of invaders.
The issue of planetary signifcators for religions has been discussed before here on skyscript with some very erudite replies. I will try and find the link if I can for you.

As someone of a non Judeo-Christian-Islamic persuasion myself its something I do take with something of a pinch of salt. Still, in order to criticise the tradition its best to understand it properly.

While you are entitled to your views I do think you are getting into gross distortions about the history of Islam as a whole. However, rather than enter into debate with you I prefer to stick to the astrology and leave such controversial and potentially offensive discussions out.

Incidentally you are mistaken about Ib Ezra. He was not a Muslim. Ibn Ezra was actually a leading Jewish scholar in his time.

PS Just noted Olivia has already replied! Sorry for any duplication.
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

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Eddy wrote:I'm not sure what to do when a new planet is used. On one side I don't think it should necessarily be catagorized using one of the traditional planets. On the other hand the qualities of the traditional planets on their turn were classified by Ptolemy using the four temperaments. This could also be applied to the new planets.

In practice the only 'new' planets I use (in transits) are Uranus, Neptune and Pluto. I have the impression that they 'work', but I don't have that the asteroids. Especially now Pluto is classified as an asteroid, I feel a bit annoyed that such a little 'icy rock' can work.

I've been trying to study my past events/important periods using only Jupiter and Saturn transits. Even though there are some 'gaps', I think these transits are very essential, perhaps even more important than the transits of the moderns, even while the mood changes that accompany these are quite strong.
The Reason why Modern Astrologers desperately want the outer planets to fit in is, that they don't know the self-contained and conclusive model of traditional astrology.

Rather than considering whether it is wise to insert the outer planets, they want to forcibly put them in by hook or by crook.

It is not only the outer planets, but also asteroids like Chiron or even hypothetical planets like Lillith.
For example, Chiron is said to signify "grievous experiences" and "inner healing" - things that are in fact ruled by the malefics Mars and Saturn.
The only positive in bad things might be the possibility to learn how to avoid them in future.

Modern astrologers would state that aircrafts are ruled by Uranus, because they are new and modern. But Carriages once were new and modern, too.
Aircrafts are naturally ruled by Mercury, because they are a means of transport which serve mankind - preferably by Mercury in airy signs, as they are known to travel in the air.
Mercury in earthy or fiery signs would show transporters which travel by land, in watery signs he would show ones that travel by water (on or under the water).

No need of outer planets, asteroids, hypothetical planets or the like - the more precious a thing is, the less factors it has to make use of.

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Olivia wrote:Ibn Ezra was a Jew. A rabbi. Who wrote massive commentaries on the Torah. And he said that Saturn is Judaism, Christianity is Jupiter, and Islam is Venus.
Isn't Ibn Ezra a Muslim name ("Son of Ezra")?

No matter if by birth Jew or not, Ibn Ezra was heavily influenced by the Islam, as he was born in Moorish Spain.

Furthermore he could speak Arabic properly.

The Moors - Islamic by religion - had taken Spain and occupied it by force. So how can the Islam be associated with Venus, as Venus stands for peace and gentleness - just because Ibn Ezra said it, it must be so?
Last edited by Edward on Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Edward wrote: So Ibn Ezra - a Muslim - stated that Venus signifies Islam. Did the other authors really see this similarly? I don't think Muslims are known for beeing very peaceful and women-friendly.
I would be inclined to say that the Muslims are more probably signified by Mars, since throughout their history they proved as a rather aggressive people of invaders.
As has been said already, Ben Ezra was a Jewish Talmudic scholar.

This assignation of Venus to Islam comes from at least Abu Mashar, from I believe his book on mundane astrology. Venus, signifying purity and unity, fits Islam rather well; in their quest for religious unity, took great pains to quash any heterodox sects, though inevitably some did survive, i.e. the Shia, Ismali, and Druze to name a few. I cannot recall exactly, but in the chart of Adolf Hitler, Venus is either the <i>kurios</i> or <i>oikodespotes</i>; his quest for racial purity is well attested. Just because a planet is a benefic doesn't mean that everything that comes from it is nice.

Christians get Mercury, if not according to Abu Mashar, then perhaps some other, I cannot recall of the top of my head. This is because, for one, they were considered very learned and well-read, and for the other, because they were always involved in disputations, heresies, and various squabbling sects, which fits Mercury's lordship over contestations. Saturn goes to the Jewish religion, because according to Abu Mashar it was considered the oldest religion in the World.
Gabe

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Edward wrote:
Olivia wrote:Ibn Ezra was a Jew. A rabbi. Who wrote massive commentaries on the Torah. And he said that Saturn is Judaism, Christianity is Jupiter, and Islam is Venus.
Isn't Ibn Ezra a Muslim name ("Son of Ezra")?

No matter if by birth Jew or not, Ibn Ezra was heavily influenced by the Islam, as he was born in Moorish Spain.

Furthermore he could speak Arabic properly.

The Moors - Islamic by religion - had taken Spain and occupied it by force. So how can the Islam be associated with Venus, as Venus stands for peace and gentleness - just because Ibn Ezra said it, it must be so?
Do a little research on the historical period. Really and truly. Most educated Jews spoke Arabic, Aramaic, Hebrew, and several vernacular languages. This does not make them non-Jewish. And Ibn Ezra's contribution to the Jewish cannon is not contested by anyone.

Masha'allah, another Jewish astrologer, elected the foundation of the city of Baghdad. He was still Really Jewish.

And once upon a time in Spain, Jews, Christians, and Muslims lived together quite happily, and everyone exchanged information. Had it not been for the Muslims salvaging many Greek texts, not only would we have lost astrology, but many other arts and sciences. Now, history permitted scholars of these three religions to come together - and be thankful - it was one of the things that helped drag Europe out of the dark ages.

You can't categorise a religion, or the history of a religion that's been around for hundreds or thousands of years, by what you read in yesterday's newspaper. It's far, far more complicated than that.

And just for the record? Before the middle east went nuts, Baghdad was the most civilised place I ever lived. Truly. And I miss it.

I can't find my Abu'mashar, but his doctrine of signification works well, too, so if you've got a copy, you can look it up yourself. Just because an astrologer was a Jew, a Muslim, or a Christian, it doesn't mean they were a bad astrologer because of it, and yes, of course everybody's astrological ideas got passed around. Lilly's letter to students of the art is taken directly from Firmicus Maternus, and Maternus was probably a pagan at the time he wrote the Matheseos.

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Edward wrote: Isn't Ibn Ezra a Muslim name ("Son of Ezra")?
It was common practice to adopt Arabic names in the Muslim world, if anything, just out of practicality; not everybody knew Hebrew or Ladino, but Arabic was the lingua franca of the Kalifate.
Edward wrote: No matter if by birth Jew or not, Ibn Ezra was heavily influenced by the Islam
So are all Protestant Christians, as their great thinkers were influenced by the New Science of the 12th Century and all the Muslim-colored philosophic doctrines that came with it. You could almost call it Islamified Christianity.
Edward wrote: The Moors - Islamic by religion - had taken Spain and occupied it by force.
Actually, the history is quite a bit funnier. At the time (8th century CE), Spain was at constant civil warfare between various Visigoth and Vandal princes. One of them had the bright idea to asking a Islamic prince to come and aid him. As this prince had be basically on the run from the Kalif at Baghdad, he took him up on the offer. They later decided to press the matter further, but luckily Charles Martel put a stop to that.
Edward wrote: So how can the Islam be associated with Venus, as Venus stands for peace and gentleness - just because Ibn Ezra said it, it must be so?
Maybe because Venus doesn't simply stand for peace and gentleness? There is a difference between keeping things simple, and making things overly simplistic.
Gabe

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Just for the record...

Ezra is a biblical name, and most definitely Jewish. He was the guy who per the Talmud, redacted the Torah from several ancient manuscripts after the Babylonian captivity.

If you're more a fan of the documentary hypothesis (wihch seems the more likely) it was Ezra and his proto-Pharisee scribes who wrote it down and redacted it from various folk tales and partial manuscripts during the Babylonian captivity.

Either way, he does get a book of the bible named after him, so definitely not Islamic in origin.

Re: Associations of the New Planets in Tradition

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Edward wrote:Which traditional planets would you assign to the associations of the new planets? Do you have any idea how to find these?

Here's my attempt to describe the most common associations in traditional terms:

Uranus: Ingenuity and mental skills are due to a strong Mercury.

Eccentrics and extravagant individuals are mainly represented by a weak and afflicted Jupiter, which serves as Significator of Manners or which is Lord of the 1st or is placed therein. Why? Eccentrics want to stand out from the crowd - but they exaggerate this trait. Many of them are overdressed and tend to wear weird, bright colors like a peacock. And also they have to be wealthy, because otherwise they couldn't afford their extravagant style.

The difference between a Jupiterian eccentric and a Saturnian misfit is that the Jupiterian always socializes, whilst the Saturnian tends to isolate himself from others.

Neptune: Spirituality is a matter of a well placed Jupiter or a strong ninth house. The Sun might also play a role here in case of worldly wisdom.

Empathy is shown by a strong and potent Jupiter, the great benefic of mankind, in connection with the Moon, who represents the common people. Therefor the Moon must be in aspect with Jupiter, or otherwise in Jupiter's dignities.

Pluto: Destruction, "transformation" (=death), decay - Mars and Saturn.
Ok, now I realize that this forum is mainly about TA, but never mind, one can always learn something new. I learned astrology from an author who claimed to teach MA in his books, although he used traditional rulers of Aq, Pi and Sc in judgement of the natal chart, and some other techniques I wouldn't know if they are more traditional or modern, or whatsoever. Anyway, to me, the polarities and differences between the two are following, (ie. according to the way I've learned them):
Regarding Uranus, I would say it is a "higher octave", as some circles put it, of Mercury, both are of bi-polar nature, but Ur is more transforming, like Me in Sc, or Me 120 Ma aspect; Neptune is really Venusian by nature, yet with delusive visual components, so more like Ve in Le 90 Ju, and Pluto is like squared Mars, all in TA terms. The music concept seems to work fine, with some alterations. ;)
I also assume that there is an analogy between Ur and N Node, and Ne and S Node.
Last edited by taurocentaur on Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Olivia wrote:Just for the record...

Ezra is a biblical name, and most definitely Jewish. He was the guy who per the Talmud, redacted the Torah from several ancient manuscripts after the Babylonian captivity.
Yes, Ezra is a biblical Jewish name, and deriving from Egyptian name Osiris, which Egyptians wrote with two hieroglyphs, As-Ar, so it is a compound. Later it was changed into (god) El-Azar which finally became Lazar-us, the resurrected one. Osiris=Ezra=Lazarus. A little bit off-topic, but...