skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Can assassinations be prevented? by Elsbeth Ebertin
translated by Jenn Zahrt PhD
A Guide to Interpreting The Great American Eclipse
by Wade Caves
The Astrology of Depression
by Judith Hill
Understanding the mean conjunctions of the Jupiter-Saturn cycle
by Benjamin Dykes
Understanding the zodiac: and why there really ARE 12 signs of the zodiac, not 13
by Deborah Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

Associations of the New Planets in Tradition
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Nativities & General Astrology
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Eddy



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
Posts: 922
Location: Netherlands

Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's an article of an Indian astrologer on the "trans-Saturnian" planets.
http://shyamasundaradasa.com/jyotish/resources/articles/pdf_versions/english/fallacy_trans-saturnian_eng.pdf
The 'Vedic' part isn't too dominating, so it is very readable for Western traditional astrologers, who don't use the modern planets either.
I do look at the (three) modern planets but only in transits. However I try to do as little as possible with them. I don't use them in the natal chart and in progressions and directions.

The article mentions something on the issue of the modern planets as being 'octaves' of the traditional planets.
The article wrote:
This idea of "higher octave" is fallacious. All the planets, not just Venus, Mercury and Mars, have their own higher octaves and if the astrologer actually knows the subject he can determine this.
An interesting view. So these planets can manifestate on different levels, from the most concrete to the most abstract.

I'm not sure what to do when a new planet is used. On one side I don't think it should necessarily be catagorized using one of the traditional planets. On the other hand the qualities of the traditional planets on their turn were classified by Ptolemy using the four temperaments. This could also be applied to the new planets.

In practice the only 'new' planets I use (in transits) are Uranus, Neptune and Pluto. I have the impression that they 'work', but I don't have that the asteroids. Especially now Pluto is classified as an asteroid, I feel a bit annoyed that such a little 'icy rock' can work.

I've been trying to study my past events/important periods using only Jupiter and Saturn transits. Even though there are some 'gaps', I think these transits are very essential, perhaps even more important than the transits of the moderns, even while the mood changes that accompany these are quite strong.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Edward
Guest





Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Olivia wrote:
In Ibn Ezra in The Beginning of Wisdom, it's Saturn for Jews, Jupiter for Christians, and Venus for Islam. Picatrix follows this, too, as do many other authors.


So Ibn Ezra - a Muslim - stated that Venus signifies Islam. Did the other authors really see this similarly? I don't think Muslims are known for beeing very peaceful and women-friendly.
I would be inclined to say that the Muslims are more probably signified by Mars, since throughout their history they proved as a rather aggressive people of invaders.

As for Jews, I don't know much about them. But they were often seen as malefics in the past so this might be the reason why they are said to be signified by Saturn.

Jupiter for the Occidental Christians seems to fit. The Christians were known for their wisdom and their prominence in the world at their time. Jupiter rules the good and divine things.
Back to top
Olivia



Joined: 15 Oct 2008
Posts: 866

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ibn Ezra was a Jew. A rabbi. Who wrote massive commentaries on the Torah. And he said that Saturn is Judaism, Christianity is Jupiter, and Islam is Venus.

So did some other Jewish astrologers, like Sahl. And this Jewish astrologer agrees with them. I question giving a benefic to Christianity, but I do see the parallel between Zeus and Jesus. Still, it was mostly based on timing, not malefic/benefic.

The holy day theory only works with Judaism and Islam (Saturday and Friday, respectively), Christians have Sunday, but would have Thursday if it went by that - though it doesn't.

Most of the Islamic astrological writings we have available to us now came out of as close as we can come to a 'Golden Age'. If it hadn't been for Islam, a LOT of sciences and other knowledge would be lost to us completely. And for a time there, before history went and changed again, translating this stuff often depended on having people who were fluent in Persian, Arabic, Hebrew, and Latin.

Mostly it was in Spain that all this happened, then there was a conquest (can't remember who at the moment), the country went pretty much straight Christian, and Christians, Muslims, and Jews were no longer translating things together, and Muslims and Jews were no longer allowed to associate with Christians - then the expulsions happened. But for a time there, it was actually pretty civilised. May we have such an age again in our lifetimes.


Last edited by Olivia on Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4990
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello edward,

Quote:
So Ibn Ezra - a Muslim - stated that Venus signifies Islam. Did the other authors really see this similarly? I don't think Muslims are known for beeing very peaceful and women-friendly.
I would be inclined to say that the Muslims are more probably signified by Mars, since throughout their history they proved as a rather aggressive people of invaders.


The issue of planetary signifcators for religions has been discussed before here on skyscript with some very erudite replies. I will try and find the link if I can for you.

As someone of a non Judeo-Christian-Islamic persuasion myself its something I do take with something of a pinch of salt. Still, in order to criticise the tradition its best to understand it properly.

While you are entitled to your views I do think you are getting into gross distortions about the history of Islam as a whole. However, rather than enter into debate with you I prefer to stick to the astrology and leave such controversial and potentially offensive discussions out.

Incidentally you are mistaken about Ib Ezra. He was not a Muslim. Ibn Ezra was actually a leading Jewish scholar in his time.

PS Just noted Olivia has already replied! Sorry for any duplication.
_________________
‘’As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity…’’ William Lilly
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Edward
Guest





Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eddy wrote:
I'm not sure what to do when a new planet is used. On one side I don't think it should necessarily be catagorized using one of the traditional planets. On the other hand the qualities of the traditional planets on their turn were classified by Ptolemy using the four temperaments. This could also be applied to the new planets.

In practice the only 'new' planets I use (in transits) are Uranus, Neptune and Pluto. I have the impression that they 'work', but I don't have that the asteroids. Especially now Pluto is classified as an asteroid, I feel a bit annoyed that such a little 'icy rock' can work.

I've been trying to study my past events/important periods using only Jupiter and Saturn transits. Even though there are some 'gaps', I think these transits are very essential, perhaps even more important than the transits of the moderns, even while the mood changes that accompany these are quite strong.


The Reason why Modern Astrologers desperately want the outer planets to fit in is, that they don't know the self-contained and conclusive model of traditional astrology.

Rather than considering whether it is wise to insert the outer planets, they want to forcibly put them in by hook or by crook.

It is not only the outer planets, but also asteroids like Chiron or even hypothetical planets like Lillith.
For example, Chiron is said to signify "grievous experiences" and "inner healing" - things that are in fact ruled by the malefics Mars and Saturn.
The only positive in bad things might be the possibility to learn how to avoid them in future.

Modern astrologers would state that aircrafts are ruled by Uranus, because they are new and modern. But Carriages once were new and modern, too.
Aircrafts are naturally ruled by Mercury, because they are a means of transport which serve mankind - preferably by Mercury in airy signs, as they are known to travel in the air.
Mercury in earthy or fiery signs would show transporters which travel by land, in watery signs he would show ones that travel by water (on or under the water).

No need of outer planets, asteroids, hypothetical planets or the like - the more precious a thing is, the less factors it has to make use of.
Back to top
Edward
Guest





Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Olivia wrote:
Ibn Ezra was a Jew. A rabbi. Who wrote massive commentaries on the Torah. And he said that Saturn is Judaism, Christianity is Jupiter, and Islam is Venus.


Isn't Ibn Ezra a Muslim name ("Son of Ezra")?

No matter if by birth Jew or not, Ibn Ezra was heavily influenced by the Islam, as he was born in Moorish Spain.

Furthermore he could speak Arabic properly.

The Moors - Islamic by religion - had taken Spain and occupied it by force. So how can the Islam be associated with Venus, as Venus stands for peace and gentleness - just because Ibn Ezra said it, it must be so?


Last edited by Edward on Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
GR



Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 451
Location: USA

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edward wrote:

So Ibn Ezra - a Muslim - stated that Venus signifies Islam. Did the other authors really see this similarly? I don't think Muslims are known for beeing very peaceful and women-friendly.
I would be inclined to say that the Muslims are more probably signified by Mars, since throughout their history they proved as a rather aggressive people of invaders.


As has been said already, Ben Ezra was a Jewish Talmudic scholar.

This assignation of Venus to Islam comes from at least Abu Mashar, from I believe his book on mundane astrology. Venus, signifying purity and unity, fits Islam rather well; in their quest for religious unity, took great pains to quash any heterodox sects, though inevitably some did survive, i.e. the Shia, Ismali, and Druze to name a few. I cannot recall exactly, but in the chart of Adolf Hitler, Venus is either the kurios or oikodespotes; his quest for racial purity is well attested. Just because a planet is a benefic doesn't mean that everything that comes from it is nice.

Christians get Mercury, if not according to Abu Mashar, then perhaps some other, I cannot recall of the top of my head. This is because, for one, they were considered very learned and well-read, and for the other, because they were always involved in disputations, heresies, and various squabbling sects, which fits Mercury's lordship over contestations. Saturn goes to the Jewish religion, because according to Abu Mashar it was considered the oldest religion in the World.
_________________
Gabe
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Olivia



Joined: 15 Oct 2008
Posts: 866

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edward wrote:
Olivia wrote:
Ibn Ezra was a Jew. A rabbi. Who wrote massive commentaries on the Torah. And he said that Saturn is Judaism, Christianity is Jupiter, and Islam is Venus.


Isn't Ibn Ezra a Muslim name ("Son of Ezra")?

No matter if by birth Jew or not, Ibn Ezra was heavily influenced by the Islam, as he was born in Moorish Spain.

Furthermore he could speak Arabic properly.

The Moors - Islamic by religion - had taken Spain and occupied it by force. So how can the Islam be associated with Venus, as Venus stands for peace and gentleness - just because Ibn Ezra said it, it must be so?


Do a little research on the historical period. Really and truly. Most educated Jews spoke Arabic, Aramaic, Hebrew, and several vernacular languages. This does not make them non-Jewish. And Ibn Ezra's contribution to the Jewish cannon is not contested by anyone.

Masha'allah, another Jewish astrologer, elected the foundation of the city of Baghdad. He was still Really Jewish.

And once upon a time in Spain, Jews, Christians, and Muslims lived together quite happily, and everyone exchanged information. Had it not been for the Muslims salvaging many Greek texts, not only would we have lost astrology, but many other arts and sciences. Now, history permitted scholars of these three religions to come together - and be thankful - it was one of the things that helped drag Europe out of the dark ages.

You can't categorise a religion, or the history of a religion that's been around for hundreds or thousands of years, by what you read in yesterday's newspaper. It's far, far more complicated than that.

And just for the record? Before the middle east went nuts, Baghdad was the most civilised place I ever lived. Truly. And I miss it.

I can't find my Abu'mashar, but his doctrine of signification works well, too, so if you've got a copy, you can look it up yourself. Just because an astrologer was a Jew, a Muslim, or a Christian, it doesn't mean they were a bad astrologer because of it, and yes, of course everybody's astrological ideas got passed around. Lilly's letter to students of the art is taken directly from Firmicus Maternus, and Maternus was probably a pagan at the time he wrote the Matheseos.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
GR



Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 451
Location: USA

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edward wrote:

Isn't Ibn Ezra a Muslim name ("Son of Ezra")?


It was common practice to adopt Arabic names in the Muslim world, if anything, just out of practicality; not everybody knew Hebrew or Ladino, but Arabic was the lingua franca of the Kalifate.

Edward wrote:

No matter if by birth Jew or not, Ibn Ezra was heavily influenced by the Islam


So are all Protestant Christians, as their great thinkers were influenced by the New Science of the 12th Century and all the Muslim-colored philosophic doctrines that came with it. You could almost call it Islamified Christianity.

Edward wrote:

The Moors - Islamic by religion - had taken Spain and occupied it by force.


Actually, the history is quite a bit funnier. At the time (8th century CE), Spain was at constant civil warfare between various Visigoth and Vandal princes. One of them had the bright idea to asking a Islamic prince to come and aid him. As this prince had be basically on the run from the Kalif at Baghdad, he took him up on the offer. They later decided to press the matter further, but luckily Charles Martel put a stop to that.

Edward wrote:

So how can the Islam be associated with Venus, as Venus stands for peace and gentleness - just because Ibn Ezra said it, it must be so?


Maybe because Venus doesn't simply stand for peace and gentleness? There is a difference between keeping things simple, and making things overly simplistic.
_________________
Gabe
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Olivia



Joined: 15 Oct 2008
Posts: 866

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just for the record...

Ezra is a biblical name, and most definitely Jewish. He was the guy who per the Talmud, redacted the Torah from several ancient manuscripts after the Babylonian captivity.

If you're more a fan of the documentary hypothesis (wihch seems the more likely) it was Ezra and his proto-Pharisee scribes who wrote it down and redacted it from various folk tales and partial manuscripts during the Babylonian captivity.

Either way, he does get a book of the bible named after him, so definitely not Islamic in origin.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
taurocentaur



Joined: 17 Mar 2009
Posts: 3

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:52 am    Post subject: Re: Associations of the New Planets in Tradition Reply with quote

Edward wrote:
Which traditional planets would you assign to the associations of the new planets? Do you have any idea how to find these?

Here's my attempt to describe the most common associations in traditional terms:

Uranus: Ingenuity and mental skills are due to a strong Mercury.

Eccentrics and extravagant individuals are mainly represented by a weak and afflicted Jupiter, which serves as Significator of Manners or which is Lord of the 1st or is placed therein. Why? Eccentrics want to stand out from the crowd - but they exaggerate this trait. Many of them are overdressed and tend to wear weird, bright colors like a peacock. And also they have to be wealthy, because otherwise they couldn't afford their extravagant style.

The difference between a Jupiterian eccentric and a Saturnian misfit is that the Jupiterian always socializes, whilst the Saturnian tends to isolate himself from others.

Neptune: Spirituality is a matter of a well placed Jupiter or a strong ninth house. The Sun might also play a role here in case of worldly wisdom.

Empathy is shown by a strong and potent Jupiter, the great benefic of mankind, in connection with the Moon, who represents the common people. Therefor the Moon must be in aspect with Jupiter, or otherwise in Jupiter's dignities.

Pluto: Destruction, "transformation" (=death), decay - Mars and Saturn.


Ok, now I realize that this forum is mainly about TA, but never mind, one can always learn something new. I learned astrology from an author who claimed to teach MA in his books, although he used traditional rulers of Aq, Pi and Sc in judgement of the natal chart, and some other techniques I wouldn't know if they are more traditional or modern, or whatsoever. Anyway, to me, the polarities and differences between the two are following, (ie. according to the way I've learned them):
Regarding Uranus, I would say it is a "higher octave", as some circles put it, of Mercury, both are of bi-polar nature, but Ur is more transforming, like Me in Sc, or Me 120 Ma aspect; Neptune is really Venusian by nature, yet with delusive visual components, so more like Ve in Le 90 Ju, and Pluto is like squared Mars, all in TA terms. The music concept seems to work fine, with some alterations. Wink
I also assume that there is an analogy between Ur and N Node, and Ne and S Node.


Last edited by taurocentaur on Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:24 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
taurocentaur



Joined: 17 Mar 2009
Posts: 3

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Olivia wrote:
Just for the record...

Ezra is a biblical name, and most definitely Jewish. He was the guy who per the Talmud, redacted the Torah from several ancient manuscripts after the Babylonian captivity.


Yes, Ezra is a biblical Jewish name, and deriving from Egyptian name Osiris, which Egyptians wrote with two hieroglyphs, As-Ar, so it is a compound. Later it was changed into (god) El-Azar which finally became Lazar-us, the resurrected one. Osiris=Ezra=Lazarus. A little bit off-topic, but...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Edward
Guest





Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Olivia wrote:
Do a little research on the historical period. Really and truly. Most educated Jews spoke Arabic, Aramaic, Hebrew, and several vernacular languages. This does not make them non-Jewish. And Ibn Ezra's contribution to the Jewish cannon is not contested by anyone.

Masha'allah, another Jewish astrologer, elected the foundation of the city of Baghdad. He was still Really Jewish.


Ibn Ezra (Arabic "Son of Ezra") and Masha'allah (Arabic "God has willed it") WERE heavily influenced by the Islam, as they spoke their language and lived in countries which were occupied by Muslims - hence they had to write Muslim-friendly things.
Otherwise I can't explain how one can state that Venus should signify Islam!

On the contrary, it must be more Mars than Venus that stands for the Islam. Why? Saturn for Jews seems right, Jupiter for Christianity also. The next to follow is Islam by Mars.
The Jews (Saturn) are followed by the Christians (Jupiter) which again are followed by Islam (Mars) - a resembling of the Chaldean Order.
This fits the religions' history, as Jews were the ones later restricted, inhibited; whilst Muslims proved to be belligerent and expansive.

Olivia wrote:
And once upon a time in Spain, Jews, Christians, and Muslims lived together quite happily, and everyone exchanged information. Had it not been for the Muslims salvaging many Greek texts, not only would we have lost astrology, but many other arts and sciences. Now, history permitted scholars of these three religions to come together - and be thankful - it was one of the things that helped drag Europe out of the dark ages.

You can't categorise a religion, or the history of a religion that's been around for hundreds or thousands of years, by what you read in yesterday's newspaper. It's far, far more complicated than that.


As we know, there can only be such peaceful world on paper...
History tells us a different kind of story.

The Muslims always wanted to islamize the countries they had conquered - to force Non-Muslims to convert, which they called "Jihad" (Holy War). A quite appropriate term for a Martial religion!

Since Mohammed's death in 632, the new-born Islam invaded Christian Syria, Damaskus and Jerusalem and several other regions in the Orient. After that they gradually islamized Christian North Africa by force, until their armed forces reached the Atlantic.

From there, an islamized North African tribe called "Moors" invaded Spain. It is said they wanted to invade Europe further, but were stopped by Charles Martel in a battle in South France in 732 - who was later called the Hero who repressed the Islamic Invasion in Western Europe.

However, the Muslims did not only invade Europe from the West, but some centuries later also from the East!
The last Christian stronghold to repress the Ottoman Invaders was Constantinople, which served as a gateway to Europe, but it fell in 1453. After that, the Hagia Sophia was made a mosque - very peaceful and gentle, isn't it?

The Ottomans invaded Eastern Europe further, but were stopped in the siege of Vienna - the first time in 1529, the second time in 1683.

In the conquered regions, most of the people only had the choice between converting to Islam or otherwise beeing eliminated.
Even nowadays, Non-Muslims in Islamic countries are very underprivileged and have to pay special services, called "Dhimmi"!
Back to top
epurdue



Joined: 14 Nov 2007
Posts: 327

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The fact is, most medieval literature says Islam is ruled by Venus. Al-Biruni who WAS Muslim says the same thing. The Picatrix, which was written in a Muslim country (no one is sure exactly where or who wrote it) also says this.

I think the holy day being Friday is part of it. Another part is that Mecca's patron goddess was Alat who is similar to Venus. This is probably a holdover from that. Another reason is the desire to have a specific planet for specific religions. Mars signifies atheists or heretics.

In The Picatrix, it says the following:

Saturn - Judaism
Jupiter - It says monotheism, but I think it implies Christianity here.
Mars - Heretics
Sun - Foreign religions and the worship of planetary spirits
Venus - The Saracen (Islam)
Mercury - Forbidden religions
Moon - Worship of idols
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
GR



Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 451
Location: USA

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edward wrote:

Ibn Ezra (Arabic "Son of Ezra") and Masha'allah (Arabic "God has willed it") WERE heavily influenced by the Islam, as they spoke their language and lived in countries which were occupied by Muslims - hence they had to write Muslim-friendly things.
Otherwise I can't explain how one can state that Venus should signify Islam!

On the contrary, it must be more Mars than Venus that stands for the Islam. Why? Saturn for Jews seems right, Jupiter for Christianity also. The next to follow is Islam by Mars.
The Jews (Saturn) are followed by the Christians (Jupiter) which again are followed by Islam (Mars) - a resembling of the Chaldean Order.
This fits the religions' history, as Jews were the ones later restricted, inhibited; whilst Muslims proved to be belligerent and expansive.


Why "the Islam"? It seems a very strange phrasing.

You question the reasoning of the old astrologers because you do not understand them, but you don't apply to same skepticism to your own reasoning and understanding. It would be a good idea.

Edward wrote:

Since Mohammed's death in 632, the new-born Islam invaded Christian Syria, Damaskus and Jerusalem and several other regions in the Orient. After that they gradually islamized Christian North Africa by force, until their armed forces reached the Atlantic.


Actually all this talk of conquest is pretty overstated. Egypt and Syria more or less converted en masse to Islam, partly because of the incredible corruptions of Byzantine governors and tax officials, and partly because of the constant unrest due to the many schismatic Christian sects in the region. Persia, being Zoroastrian and Manichaean, was considered pagan and thus was conquered more brutally.

Edward wrote:

From there, an islamized North African tribe called "Moors" invaded Spain. It is said they wanted to invade Europe further, but were stopped by Charles Martel in a battle in South France in 732 - who was later called the Hero who repressed the Islamic Invasion in Western Europe.


Actually they are called more properly Berbers, Moors comes from the Mauri, as the people were called by the Romans. There were actually few proper Arabs.

Edward wrote:

In the conquered regions, most of the people only had the choice between converting to Islam or otherwise beeing eliminated.
Even nowadays, Non-Muslims in Islamic countries are very underprivileged and have to pay special services, called "Dhimmi"!


The Dhimmi laws are Islamified holdovers from the Byzantine laws that persecuted Jews and pagans. In many cases they are exactly the same ones out of Justinian's Code. Really, Edward, you have to let go of this anti-Muslim hysteria when it comes to astrology, they are very centrally situated in the "tradition".
_________________
Gabe
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Nativities & General Astrology All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 3 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated