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charts and a total visual approach

 
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Kwincunx



Joined: 22 Feb 2017
Posts: 19

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:25 am    Post subject: charts and a total visual approach Reply with quote

Sometimes I see a chart and it has a visual shape; someone could describe the person or event even if they knew nothing about astrology. Some examples:

- event chart for Chernobyl disaster looks like a zig zag of electric bolt going upwards into the sky.

- Marilyn Monroe's birth chart looks like a diamond.

- Chart for first shot at Fort Sumter in US Civil War looks like two swords fighting each other.

Now I haven't gone out of my way to find these; every so often I notice something. But if anyone has any to add feel free to Smile
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 2884
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

do some research on marc edmund jones patterns - bucket, locomotive, splash and etc... you will find it interesting and relevant for a greater understanding of charts..

hey - i see this got posted on the trad forum... trad folks don't do marc edmund jones... sorry... you will have to dig to for an older source, if one is even available on this.. i think marc e jones was an innovator - something frowned on my the trad crowd unless it is attached with the right pedigree - pre 1700's!!
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Tom
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3464
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jones was an innovator. In fact it has been hinted at that Dane Rudhyar (ahem) "borrowed" a good deal of Jones and claimed it as his own.

However James' comment brings an opportunity to explain something. James wrote:


Quote:
i think marc e jones was an innovator - something frowned on my the trad crowd unless it is attached with the right pedigree - pre 1700's!!


Back when this Forum was established (15 years ago if you can believe that), the situation of traditional vs modern was a bit different than it is today. Traditional forums (not here; elsewhere on the web) tended to end up as brawls with moderns invading to tell traditionalists why they were wrong about everything and traditionalists fought back. The reverse happened occasionally, as well. Plus we were all learning as the information came flying at us: some good and some not so good. It was tough to keep up.

The idea behind segregation was to allow traditionalists a place to discuss traditional astrology without the distractions that, in some cases, ruined other astrology sites. So a separate Forum was established to do just that. There was more reason for vigorous moderation then than there is now. However I am not recommending a relaxation of the "rules." I'm only asking for understanding.

Re: Jones et al. There are modern astrologers who would lump in Jones, Leo and other late 19th century and early 20th centuries in with traditional astrology. Jones, in fact, could be described as a bit of a reactionary. He was reacting against some of the silly stuff that was passed off as astrology in his era. For example, the straw that broke the camel's back for him was the time he saw an "astrologer" give a "reading" by simply placing her hand on the chart and delineated it without looking at it! But then he came up with the Sabian symbols and they have no place in traditional astrology at all.

It's tough to draw a line or even define an entire school of thought. A.J. Pearce (Zadkiel III) and the nearly forgotten Ricard Garnnett could be fairly described as traditional astrologers or at least they were a lot closer to the tradition than some of their younger contemporaries. Luke Broughton's (1828-1899) astrology was not really innovative, but it placed him squarely within the tradition.

On the other hand James is right that Marc Edmond Jones is a "modern" astrologer and his ideas concerning chart patterns would not be found in any traditional texts. This is not the same thing as saying they have no value. In fact I think a case can be made that they can have value within the traditional framework. For instance a bundle pattern would be activated by primary directions - one planet after the other in rapid succession. Surely if primary directions have value then this period or periods would be momentous in the life of a native with a tight bundle formation.

So a discussion of Jones most likely does belong in the modern section (Nativities) unless his work is being discussed such as I mentioned or something similar. Overlapping is inevitable, and such discussions can be valuable if everyone shows some respect. Using say, Alan Leo quotes to "prove" traditional astrology has no value are not welcome.

Glad you mentioned this James. It's been a while since a clarification was mentioned, and it needs to be from time to time.
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Kwincunx



Joined: 22 Feb 2017
Posts: 19

Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:18 pm    Post subject: ok Reply with quote

In the OP I was thinking that traditional and ancient techniques could be totally visual. Rather like throwing bones on the ground for divination and seeing what shape resulted.
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Tom
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
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Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In the OP I was thinking that traditional and ancient techniques could be totally visual. Rather like throwing bones on the ground for divination and seeing what shape resulted.


Traditional astrology doesn't work that way. I'm not even sure that Jones et al had that idea in mind.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 2884
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tom - thanks for articulating what you did too! i think that is beneficial for others who might be new to astrology, or just getting into astrology to understand how these terms were viewed 20 years ago and how they have changed, or been altered over the course of such a short time.. thanks for saying all that...

kwincunx

you might want to get into horary which in some ways is much more in line with your description and while i am at it - check out geoffery cornelius great book ' the moment of astrology'.. chris brennan did a podcast with the author on this book.. it might be right up your alley!

http://theastrologypodcast.com/2015/11/24/geoffrey-cornelius-moment-of-astrology/
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Tom
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Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got to thinking a bit about kwincunx remark:

Quote:
In the OP I was thinking that traditional and ancient techniques could be totally visual. Rather like throwing bones on the ground for divination and seeing what shape resulted.


While the planets aren't placed randomly in charts, there are a few things in the tradition that might have inspired Jones to make the visual approach more concrete. Traditional astrologers certainly would have noticed if the majority of planets were above or below the horizon or perhaps have noticed if they were crowded around any angle if for no other reason than to apply what they knew about sect.

I happened to come across this remark made by Gadbury (and it would take too much time to explain all of the necessary background)


Quote:
" ... that he had the hard hap (sic) to be engaged in Duels often; in which engagements in which engagements three Men were slain by him. It cannot but [by]ill provoking him , that hath many Planets above the earth; especially if they shall be in the dignities, or in any Aspect of Mars, or near the eminent fixed stars; as most of them are in this Geniture.


Translation: This poor guy was provoked into killing three men in duels because he had many planets above the horizon that were disposed by Mars. He continues:

Quote:
Howbeit this worthy Native should by his Nativity have been a Person of Noble Nature, hating to do or commit any dishonorable act: for he hath Mercury, his chief significator, in the house of Venus, and in Platique Conjunction with her in the 9th House in trine to the Ascendant(?).


Translation: How could such a great guy kill all those people and we know he's a great guy because Lord ASC is conjunct the lesser benefic in good aspect to his ascendant?

I'm not putting the chart up because Gadbury made a significant mistake. He has Mercury in Taurus when it is in Aries according to a modern computer program. He wants us to think this seriously nice guy couldn't help but kill three men in duals despite his lovely nature. It would not surprise me if Gadbury fudged his Mercury calculation in order to achieve the result he wanted. Mercury, Lord ASC, is in a Mars sign making him less than the sweet guy Gadbury wants us to think he is. In fact, "hothead" might be an appropriate description. In short he is sucking up to a noble family.

The point is that the rule he states i.e. a man will be forced into violence if he has many planets above the horizon disposed by Mars or in aspect to Mars (only Saturn Rx on the ASC in Virgo sextiles Mars in this chart. Less of a nice guy than Gadbury tells us). I'll leave the judgment that he was forced into dueling to others. The fact is with all those planets above the horizon disposed by Mars (Jupiter, the Sun, and Mercury) this was a man used to violence. Gadbury seems to imply that if these planets were not so grouped, even if they were disposed by Mars or in aspect to him, the native would be less apt to be involved in violent acts.

The other interesting part is that Gadbury is practicing what might be fairly called "modern astrology." He is describing the man's psychology and tells us he is forced to abandon his nature by others who provoked him.

Jones did not live in an era where dueling was permitted much less common. His interpretation would be a bit different. But he would have noticed that every planet is above the horizon except the Moon and taken it from there.

Male
April 6, 1596 OS
2:18 PM
London, UK
8 Virgo rises

This gets reasonably close to Gadbury's chart and he would have used Regio houses most likely.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 2884
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tom,

thanks for this additional info and perspective.. i haven't had time to follow it up and not sure when i will get some time! hopefully someone else will explore this, or i will at some point..
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