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Temperament & Psychological Types [Revisited]...
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amzolt



Joined: 16 Apr 2009
Posts: 41
Location: Kettering, Ohio, USA

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ox wrote:
The Air element, which is conventionally aligned with Thinking, is displaying this quality as a 'compensatory effect' spurned on by Sensation. And the Earth element, which is conventionally aligned with Sensation, is displaying this quality as a 'compensatory effect' spurned on by Thinking.

That's the meaning I got from your post amzolt. Smile


Thanks for explaining your response!

Actually, when you say, "The Air element, which is conventionally aligned with Thinking...", I must add that the "convention" of Air/Thinking is incorrect.

If that is true then, "...is displaying this quality as a 'compensatory effect' spurned on by Sensation.", would not be a valid conclusion.

Thinking and Sensation are not "compensatory". Thinking and Feeling as well as Intuition and Sensation are compensatory.

I'm very happy you've brought up the Conscious/Unconscious Compensation phenomenon but I don't think it applies between Thinking and Sensation.

The Thinking/Air and Sensation/Earth attributions are just wrong but still the compensatory process is what led me to making the Thinking/Earth and Sensation/Air attributions...
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Ox



Joined: 24 Apr 2009
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Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps the crux of the problem is merely a confusion in terms then.

For example, an Earth/Thinking type may relieve itself by a full out immersion in the senses, but then in turn is associated with the term 'Sensation' because of the symptoms it displays.
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amzolt



Joined: 16 Apr 2009
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Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ox wrote:
Perhaps the crux of the problem is merely a confusion in terms then.

For example, an Earth/Thinking type may relieve itself by a full out immersion in the senses, but then in turn is associated with the term 'Sensation' because of the symptoms it displays.


Are you conversant with Jung's description of the Types?
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Ox



Joined: 24 Apr 2009
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Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On a surface level yes.

But if I were to try to pin down there 'essence' I would be courting madness indeed . Tongue Out
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trevor
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Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

These 3 links should clarify this :
http://www.friesian.com/types.htm
http://thezodiac.com/soul/elements/cornerstones.htm
http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Jung/types.htm

''Sensation Type or Function (Element of Earth - Taurus, Virgo, Capricorn): A person whose main function is sensation (earth) trusts rational, objective information which is practical and can be observed and gathered directly through the five senses of sight, taste, hearing, direct, and taste. Jung: "people who restrict themselves to the simple perception of concrete reality."

'Thinking Type or Function (Element of Air - Gemini, Libra, Aquarius): A person whose main function is thinking (air) makes rational, objective decisions based on hard, cold, logic and on logical connections. Jung: they are "oriented to what they think, and simply cannot adapt to a situation they cannot understand intellectually."

If you agree with the 'modern' understanding of the astrological signs it is quite a seamless relationship.

The previous chat here focused on the relationship between Jung's types and the 4 traditional humors, which was quite contentious. The 'truth' of all of this may need to wait until someone, with a sophisticated understanding of all the perspectives, spends a few yrs looking into it and writes a lengthy book.
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amzolt



Joined: 16 Apr 2009
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Location: Kettering, Ohio, USA

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trevor wrote:
The 'truth' of all of this may need to wait until someone, with a sophisticated understanding of all the perspectives, spends a few yrs looking into it and writes a lengthy book.


I have spent many more than a few years doing much more than looking into it and I am writing a book...
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Ox



Joined: 24 Apr 2009
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Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, but...

it shouldn't come as such a shock, that when someone spends more energy defending the depth of their well than providing actual sustenance for discussion, they could very well be seen as compensating...
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amzolt



Joined: 16 Apr 2009
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Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ox wrote:
Yes, but...

it shouldn't come as such a shock, that when someone spends more energy defending the depth of their well than providing actual sustenance for discussion, they could very well be seen as compensating...


One more attempt to clarify my position.

In Jung's typology, Intuition and Sensation are opposite, compensatory types and Feeling and Thinking are as well.

No one seems to be arguing that Intuition=Fire and Feeling=Water. So...

What is opposite Fire and compensates for it? Air. Just as Earth compensates for Water.

I hope that clarifies my position.
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Ox



Joined: 24 Apr 2009
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Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems to make sense on paper, but perhaps Jung defined his Types outside the boundaries of 'just astrology', and had more of a shamanic 'ideal' in mind when it came aligning polarities.
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amzolt



Joined: 16 Apr 2009
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Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ox wrote:
It seems to make sense on paper, but perhaps Jung defined his Types outside the boundaries of 'just astrology', and had more of a shamanic 'ideal' in mind when it came aligning polarities.


Two questions:

What, in your opinion, is "just astrology"?

Do you really feel Jung only worked on "paper"?

Two comments:

Jung based his psychology theories on a life-time of empirical interaction with people of all types.

Any form of astrology is an expression of an underlying psychology.
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Ox



Joined: 24 Apr 2009
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Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fair enough,

Instead of repeating myself twice, let me rephrase the statement.

Your inferences from Carl Jung's vast body of eclectic work may be right on some level, however, because Jung drew from so many eclectic resources you could also be wrong on many other levels.

I have one question for you now,

Do you see yourself being 'absolutely' right on this?
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GR



Joined: 14 May 2005
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Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

amzolt wrote:

Jung based his psychology theories on a life-time of empirical interaction with people of all types.


But are they correct?

amzolt wrote:

Any form of astrology is an expression of an underlying psychology.


Why?
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yuzuru



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 1392

Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Jung based his psychology theories on a life-time of empirical interaction with people of all types


I see two things here.

First, I donīt see in anything in Jungīs work that would validate the assumption that his theory is empirical oriented. His is a very A-priori theory if there is one!

Of course he applied his theory. But Hipocrates also did it.

Second, I donīt see exactly why a theory based on empirical interaction is, in any way, better than any kind of theory. There are a huge amount of empirical theory that is completely worthless

If you want a empirical theory of types, you would have to look for something like Big 5 or maybe PF 16. Empirical psychologists donīt like neither Jung or the MBTI.
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amzolt



Joined: 16 Apr 2009
Posts: 41
Location: Kettering, Ohio, USA

Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GR wrote:
amzolt wrote:

Jung based his psychology theories on a life-time of empirical interaction with people of all types.


But are they correct?

amzolt wrote:

Any form of astrology is an expression of an underlying psychology.


Why?


Since this thread seems to be becoming rather disputatious, I think I'll leave the answers of those questions to you. You might start looking for answers within yourself if the information I've offered disagrees with your personal theories...
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amzolt



Joined: 16 Apr 2009
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Location: Kettering, Ohio, USA

Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yuzuru wrote:
Quote:
Jung based his psychology theories on a life-time of empirical interaction with people of all types


First, I donīt see in anything in Jungīs work that would validate the assumption that his theory is empirical oriented.


Have you read deeply about his work with clients?
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