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The Current Saturn/Uranus Opposition...
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trevor
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Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Olivia wrote:
How did you get access to classical texts 40 years ago? My first 'real' astrology book was Margaret Hone's Modern Textbook of Astrology, which had already adopted the abecedarian zodiac Zip Dobyns came up with.

It was psychological, in other words.

About all that was around in those days was Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos, if you could find a copy. Even Lilly was only a rumour, and certainly unread, until the 1980s - there were perilously few copies of Christian Astrology left in the world. And the Persians were completely unheard of.


Abecedarian might not be the most appropriate term seeing as the Abecedarians were a 'sect'.

All astrology is psychological Olivia, it's a human construct.
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Tom
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Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gunhilde wrote:

Quote:
Having just experienced a VERY long Pluto transit


I've had Pluto cross my ASC, IC and contact by major aspect every planet in my chart. On only one occasion did it coincide with a life event and that was when I was 8 years old and it was beyond my control. I've never undergone a profound transformation that I know of. Maybe I'm just a case of arrested development.

Due to the configuration of my chart when Uranus transited Aquarius it aspected everything except the Sun and Moon and in one short period (for Uranus) it was conjunct my DSC, Mercury, opposed Mars and then changed signs to conjunct my Pisces Sun. At 8 Pisces Uranus trined my Moon completing the chart. For all the upheaval internal and external that would be expected, this could have been the most peaceful and productive time of my life. Very boring for Uranus.

I have to admit I am really uncomfortable discussing my own chart this way, because when others do it I tend to ignore it. My life experience is not particularly interesting, or is it universal and neither is anyone else's. But I do think that the near complete lack of meaningful events coinciding with outer transit planets is indicative something. We can't verify internal events. "Oh this or that happened and I am so changed." Maybe you are maybe you're not. That's the problem with much of the internal stuff. We have the client's word for it - nothing else.

Contrast this with the "psychology" of Ptolemy's qualities of mind or what we can glean from temperament. Those things are more likely to be apparent to the astrologer during discussions. I'm using the Ashmand translation, Book 3 Chapter 18.


Quote:
"When Jupiter alone has dominion of the mind and is gloriously situated he renders is generous, gracious, pious reverent, joyous, courteous, lofty, liberal, just, magnanimous, noble, self acting compassionate, fond of learning, beneficent, benevolent, ..."


You can do two things with this. First we can look to see if the native, after determining if Jupiter is the ruler of the mind or significator of the manners as it is sometimes called, and is well placed, has any or all of these qualities. He is unlikely to have every one. Second we can look at these qualities and see if the overall description seems to fit without too much attention on any given adjective or noun. Obviously the better we know the native the easier our task, but something will be obvious at the beginning of the first meeting. Is he courteous? noble? joyous? If so how will these qualities play out in the rest of the chart? During a direction? a transit? The point is there is something that is visible that can be worked with.

amzolt wrote:


Quote:
I'm curious, how long did you spend with "meaning-prediction" astrology?


I've never heard the phrase, "Meaning prediction" astrology before now. Also I hate resume discussions unless I'm applying for a job. They are always beside any point being made. I do some instruction for my real job. Without going into a great deal of detail, I get involved with major construction projects and on occasion I teach younger employees the proper way to handle complaints. This is important as complaints in projects of the size we usually work with go into 6 figures very quickly.

It is a common practice to try to intimidate younger employees with the ever popular "I've been doing this 20 years" or 30 years or whatever number is imagined to be sufficiently intimidating. I tell them to let those words go in one ear and out the other. Smile and continue digging for information. It has nothing to do with the nature of the complaint. In fact in that business, the guy saying that is likely trying to hide his foul ups.

I have no idea how long I've been doing what. I never kept track. It's not important. In an effort to sate any curiosity: I first took an interest in astrology when I was in college. I graduated in 1970. I didn't do much with it other than buy a couple of cookbooks. I took it up again with some lessons at a local adult school in the early to mid 1980s. I gave it up again for a few years for reasons that had nothing to do with astrology. I came back to it in the late 80s early 90s. I studied with Noel Tyl for a while. At this point I was seriously interested and kept it up for a couple of years, buying books, attending classes, lectures, joining a group etc. At some point maybe 10 years ago maybe longer I discovered traditional astrology and gave up modern "psychological" astrology for good.

I think the tipping point was Tyl's assertion that Saturn Rx in the chart was indicative of am absent, emotionally distant, or tyrannical father or father figure. I tried that out and everyone whose chart I read agreed. Boy did I think I was good. After a while I got suspicious. It was too good, so I tried an experiment. I used the same language with everyone whether they had Saturn Rx or not. Do you have to guess? Everyone still agreed. It seems virtually all of us experience our fathers as emotionally distant and authoritative. That's the way most men are. This occurred about the time I was supposed to be writing all about my Pluto transits. Of course there was nothing to write about. I even asked my brother for help trying to recall events. There was certainly nothing going on inside at that time either. I found horary astrology and from there the leap to traditional and abandonment of modern was as natural as breathing.

I don't believe in "transformation" as a kind of universal or near universal or even necessarily a desirable experience. It is if you're Ted Bundy, but most of us are decent people who experience the usual ups and downs of life. If I were a wildly successful, wealthy, popular, professional athlete with women and financial opportunities throwing themselves at my feet, why would I want to transform? I'll save that for when I'm old, unpopular and broke.

I do believe the life unfolds over time and I think astrology can act as a guide through the unfolding. If the Sun is directed to the MC at an age appropriate time of life, how can we prepare for that? I agree it isn't enough to say, "Oh you'll receive honors in December 2017. You won't if you sit on your butt and wait for them. Other poor uses of astrology:

"When will I meet my soul mate?"
Never, if you don't get out of the house.

"Does he really love me?"
Did you ever ask him or is it just me that you think should give you that information?

"My uncle Timmy just underwent a profound life altering transformation."
No, actually he died.

There are things in the chart we can work with to help order the life. I see that as an important part, if not the most important part of natal astrology. If your head is all screwed up, go to a mental health professional. Want help making decisions? Maybe an astrologer will suffice.

Tom
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amzolt



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Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
There are things in the chart we can work with to help order the life. I see that as an important part, if not the most important part of natal astrology.


I'm glad you see that there are things in the chart that can help order a life. What confounds me about your position is that you don't see how internal transformation can help order the life and you claim that transits show nearly nothing "happening" in your life. I find your position quite interesting.

I'd like your take on this quote of Dane Rudhyar:

"...the meaning and function of all the factors used in astrology are inevitably conditioned by the philosophical approach of the astrologer to the universe, to man and to society. Astrology is, in a very real sense, a 'language'."
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Last edited by amzolt on Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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trevor
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Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I came back to it in the late 80s early 90s. I studied with Noel Tyl for a while. At this point I was seriously interested and kept it up for a couple of years, buying books, attending classes, lectures, joining a group etc. At some point maybe 10 years ago maybe longer I discovered traditional astrology and gave up modern "psychological" astrology for good.


Tyl isn't what's known as a ''psychological astrologer''. It's popular or populist astrology for those who have been unable or disinclined to study depth psychology.

I call it 'agony aunt astrology'.
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Gunhilde



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Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I don't believe in "transformation" as a kind of universal or near universal or even necessarily a desirable experience. It is if you're Ted Bundy, but most of us are decent people who experience the usual ups and downs of life. If I were a wildly successful, wealthy, popular, professional athlete with women and financial opportunities throwing themselves at my feet, why would I want to transform? I'll save that for when I'm old, unpopular and broke.


I think I'd answer that by saying that transformation is not often a proactive occurrence; it happens, by and large, through external events forcing some sort of change on a person that requires not only the 'dealing with' the external events, but also forces one toward introspection and greater self-understanding.

It's not like I sat down in 1995 and said, "Okay, Pluto has just entered Sagittarius. Time to transform!". It was a slow process punctuated by several external events (having a difficult first childbirth where my child nearly died, for example) that forced me inwards to find ways to cope. I was not raised to be equipped for such challenges; I had to find ways, myself, through much pain and trial and error.

Not everyone will experience these sorts of things; and no, not everyone has a 'transformative' life, either. Some people do just fine, thanks very much, and lead exemplary and fairly simple lives. But saying that you have never experienced any sort of transformations, doesn't mean they don't exist for others, nor does it mean that they aren't necessarily triggered by transits across planets. Maybe you have just picked a life where you tackle things pragmatically without much 'higher' thought given to the meaning of it all. That's fine, and as it should be; but it doesn't mean that the rest of us are either deluded or trying to clutch at straws. Very Happy I'm not a huge fan of 'psychological' astrology, as you call it; but I do think that there is merit in exploring it. It may never fit 'objective' or empirical criteria, but human beings are extraordinarily difficult to pigeonhole, especially in terms of subjective experience.

GH Smile
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Olivia



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Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And sometimes bad things happen and they just suck. You don't get stronger or wiser or anything else good out of the experience.

Take a tour of my neighbourhood and you'll see what being too ground down can do to people. It's not nice.

I also - and I never thought I'd see myself saying it - hate the concept of evolution as it's bandied about these days, mostly on account of the theosophists attempting to recreate astrology in Darwin's image and tacking on the idea of 'more' or 'lesser' evolved souls.

Just strikes me the wrong way. We're all here, we're all struggling, and we're all human. Or maybe it's just that I both dislike and disagree with Heidegger's idea of meaning.

Who knows? Yes, there's temperament and kinds of psychology in classical astrology (as there is in Judaism, Buddhism, and any number of philosophies and religions that have stood the test of time - I pick those two as they don't require a belief in gods and are largely concerned with the here and now, not the hereafter), but it's not the same stuff Jung wrote about.

We haven't changed all that much. And I don't believe we're on the cusp of an era now where we'll change to the point that whoever comes after us won't be recognisably human, either. But reading transformational astrology and psychological astrology, it sometimes seems that's what they're saying.

Even new ages tend to go in cycles - always have done. But here we still are.
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Olivia



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Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PS: Sometimes Saturn-Uranus oppositions coincide with influenza epidemics in mundane astrology - that's one of the things that's probably worth keeping an eye on.
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###



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Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It depends on one's self-observation and one's perception of, and interest in, the passage of time. A person who looks out the window at events from an assigned chair often isn't inclined to a switch of position.
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GR



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Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This assumes that one's perceptions and self-observations are correct. Or to put it more specifically, that one's perceptions and self-observations can operate in an 'objective' manner, free of the influence of events both past and present.
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Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not whether the observations are correct, but to what extent the person is inclined toward self-observation. People cover the spectrum in that regard, from little awareness of inner states to a world-blocking self-absorption. It's a matter of the innate characteristics assigned to us.

Concerning time: Much depends on a person's ability to play with time and put it into different containers. A Pluto transit of two years can be two years filled with each day's concerns, or that two year period can be seen and experienced nearly as one moment. That does require a backward glance, another trick of time. The inner state creates, or perhaps more correctly, perceives that moment. But then it could be true: The inner state is time. Perceptively living that two-year transit as one moment as it happens probably leads to madness and a lot of missed engagements.

Short version: It depends on what you're looking at.
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Tom
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Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK This is it. I"m done after this one and heading back to the tower to spend quality time with my owl, candles, and dusty books.


Quote:
I think I'd answer that by saying that transformation is not often a proactive occurrence; it happens, by and large, through external events forcing some sort of change on a person that requires not only the 'dealing with' the external events, but also forces one toward introspection and greater self-understanding.


I used the word "transformation" as kind of a catch-all to identify the sort of things moderns like to talk about. Obviously people can be transformed or change at some level. Some greater than others. I don't accept the idea that somehow people are changed in any meaningful way every time an outer planet crosses ann angle or forms an aspect with another outer planet. I think that sort of thing is rubbish. It may happen to some people now and again but it isn't something I'd count on. Most of what I've seen that is called "transformation" is no more than what my grandmother would have called "growing up."

Quote:
Tyl isn't what's known as a ''psychological astrologer''. It's popular or populist astrology for those who have been unable or disinclined to study depth psychology.

I call it 'agony aunt astrology'.


Although I can find all sorts of things to say about Noel's astrology, I'm going to stick up for him a bit. What attracted me to him was the fact that he had a system for delineating a chart. Knowing what I know now, I'm not so sure it is a great system, but it wasn't gibberish, and there was a method and perhaps a logic to it. Tyl was taught initially by Zoltan Mason, and some of the good stuff apparently stuck even though Tyl went his own way eventually. He teaches an organized method of chart interpretation and he enforces a certain discipline on the student. That I no longer see any great value in the way he does things does not change my opinion that having an organized approach is important.

Quote:
I'd like your take on this quote of Dane Rudhyar:

"...the meaning and function of all the factors used in astrology are inevitably conditioned by the philosophical approach of the astrologer to the universe, to man and to society. Astrology is, in a very real sense, a 'language'."


Amzolt, you write intelligently and have a passion for the subject and I'm sure you're quite knowledgeable. All of those are characteristics I respect. But you haven't been hanging around here very long, or you never would have asked me this question. I have no use for Dane Rudhyar.

A) He's a poor man's Marc Edmund Jones. Almost everything found in Rudhyar can be found in Jones and often better, always more clearly.

B) He is deliberately obtuse and I hate that in a writer. If you have something to say, say it. Skyscript's very own Kim Farnell once described Rudhyar's style as "Writing in Theosophy." She actually found some of his writings that were written in readable English, but he used a pen name. No point in disappointing the star struck.

C) He and Jones, mostly Jones, realized at some level, that astrology was getting off the track. I doubt, and if Kim still reads these things I hope she'll correct me, that either Jones or Rudhyar had much of a background in the astrology that came before them much less understood them. My own opinion is that they, Rudhyar in particular, pushed astrology further off the track.

The quote is typical Rudhyar. There is a point in there somewhere. It would be much simpler to note that there is a strong philosophical component to astrology and worldview is definitely part of it. In the pre-Enlightenment world view astrology was little more than common sense. In the age of scientific materialism it becomes a problem. I don't think Rudhyar really grasped the difference in the two worldviews and instead took it upon himself to spread the Gospel of Jones his own way. I don't see astrology as a language. I see it as part of a particular worldview.

Quote:
What confounds me about your position is that you don't see how internal transformation can help order the life and you claim that transits show nearly nothing "happening" in your life. I find your position quite interesting.


I think using words like "internal transformation" conveys nothing of value. People don't mature emotionally on schedule with outer planet transits. My experience is that none of the outer planet transits timed anything in my life that modern astrology said they should time. I am not the only person to notice this. Rob Hand has written and commented on the undeniable fact that transits by themselves, often mean nothing. Why not? My answer is that "Transits alone are not enough." The don't coincide with things that are not noted elsewhere in the chart, its directions, progressions or revolutions.

I've had the normal life experiences. I've been married, divorced, remarried, had children, lost jobs, found jobs, done stupid things, done smart things, lost a parent, two really, as well as all my grandparents. I was fortunate in that I never had to endure genuine abuse, or some of the other tragedies people are forced to endure. I like to think that I've grown up a bit over the last 60+ years. All I'm saying is that if we look at the transits and compare them to the time of the major events in my life, internal and external, they don't measure up. They don't line up. That's why I don't use them.

Tom
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GR



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Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirk wrote:

It's not whether the observations are correct, but to what extent the person is inclined toward self-observation. People cover the spectrum in that regard, from little awareness of inner states to a world-blocking self-absorption. It's a matter of the innate characteristics assigned to us.


If the characteristics are all innate, then what use is it to exhort people to self-awareness?

If the observations are not correctable, then is there something else to self-observation other then self-absorption?
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trevor
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Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Although I can find all sorts of things to say about Noel's astrology, I'm going to stick up for him a bit. What attracted me to him was the fact that he had a system for delineating a chart. Knowing what I know now, I'm not so sure it is a great system, but it wasn't gibberish, and there was a method and perhaps a logic to it. Tyl was taught initially by Zoltan Mason, and some of the good stuff apparently stuck even though Tyl went his own way eventually. He teaches an organized method of chart interpretation and he enforces a certain discipline on the student. That I no longer see any great value in the way he does things does not change my opinion that having an organized approach is important.


I think you read it in a way I didn't intend it to be read. Tyl's 'astrology' is what it is. In comparison to Psychological Astrology it's surface, superifical, easy and so on. But this suits many people not everyone wants to, is disposed to or can afford to spend yrs studying depth psychology before they are in a position to make any deeper sense (in theory) of a horoscope. Same with agony aunts, or behavourial psychologists, they have their place and doubtless help many people with this and that.

BTW, I'd be very surprised if anything happened to you under an Outer planet transit that you 'noticed' . If you go with the Depth Psychological approach most of the chart is unconscious.

Robert Hand takes the view after, in my opinion, an erudite appraisal of the Hermetic ''as above, so below'' that astrology 'is an event in consciousness not an event in nature'. As regards transits these are experienced as emotions and the 'events' are the result of these emotions. So if you don't 'experience' them nothing is going to happen. Of course there's more to it .................
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Tom
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Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
OK This is it. I"m done after this one and heading back to the tower to spend quality time with my owl, candles, and dusty books.


OK I lied but this is it.

Quote:
BTW, I'd be very surprised if anything happened to you under an Outer planet transit that you 'noticed' . If you go with the Depth Psychological approach most of the chart is unconscious.


Then what's the point of it? The beauty of dealing with something that is unconscious and unnoticeable is that the interpreter can never be wrong.

Quote:
Robert Hand takes the view after, in my opinion, an erudite appraisal of the Hermetic ''as above, so below'' that astrology 'is an event in consciousness not an event in nature'. As regards transits these are experienced as emotions and the 'events' are the result of these emotions. So if you don't 'experience' them nothing is going to happen. Of course there's more to it .................


Does he still take this view? He might, (I heard him say something similar many,many years ago), but he does define himself as" ... a medieval astrologer who uses Hellenistic when it does not conflict with the medieval, but I use the outer planets." The description given doesn't sound like medieval astrology, but he is a bit of an eclectic. This self-described medieval astrologer has been spotted using a 90-degree dial.

With all due respect to Mr. Hand, I just find the idea that the planets "act" on our emotions, which they would have to do in order for them to be experienced as described above, about as credible as the idea that they cause earthquakes.

The "as above, so below" quote is always left there and that is less than half of it. I can't find an accurate translation, well actually, I don't feel like going through a dozen or more books where it might be. It goes something like this "As above so below; as below so above in order to accomplish the one thing." This means everything is connected. We are connected to the planets; the planets are connected to us. And we are connected for a reason or reasons. If we can find that reason in the unconscious, I suppose it works. I just have my doubts the advisability of astrologers poking around in the unconscious. As was once pointed out to me: The unconscious is unconscious for a reason."

I once tried explaining the as above so below stuff to a non astrologer, something I've long since stopped trying, but he seemed to get it even though he raised the following objection. "Well if that's true, why not study leaves on trees, or running water or blades of grass?" The answer is of course, that you can - in theory. People once studied the livers of slaughtered animals. The planets however gives something that hands, runes, the I Ching and tarot cards do not. They give us timing. We know where the planets will be at a given date and time - now more accurately than ever before. So to say that we can take this information, plot it on a chart and then announce: "you won't feel a thing," seems counter productive.

For the alternative point of view, try Tillyard's The Elizabethan Worldview. Better yet, get a copy of C.S. Lewis' The Discarded Image.

On a more personal note: part of my objection to psychological astrology is that I have objections to psychotherapy. It's not that I think psychotherapy never works, it's just that I think it is over-hyped and probably best left for people who really need it, not just those who feel it is unfair that they should have difficulties in their lives. And if one really needs it, he is far better off going to a mental health professional than an astrologer.

As for Noel and whether or not he is a "real" psychological astrologer, my only comment is that it is good to see the other side fighting over definitions like the traditionalists do.

Tom
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trevor
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Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Then what's the point of it? The beauty of dealing with something that is unconscious and unnoticeable is that the interpreter can never be wrong


According to Hand, and I'd say this is the Psychological Astrology view which is rooted in an 'understanding' of Hermetic, Neo-Platonic and Kabbalistic thinking, it's pretty much the 'raison d'etre' of astrology. If you are 'unconscious' of your chart then your chart will be your 'fate'.

It's an hr long but perhaps this talk is of critical importance for all astrological enthusiasts. The implications, if Hand is right, is that a large part of what is loosely defined as Predictive astrology, which is also sometimes seen as rooted in this Hermetic mindset, is something of a fallacy, immoral and hubris.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L6eb4wK_Pk&feature=PlayList&p=B19D351C075E916F&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=4

Yes of course it's very hard to be 'wrong'. But then this is the criticism of all astrology that it's non-falsifiable. A horary astrologer can say the 'signs' were mysteriously not contactable or the querent wasn’t serious. The predictive astrologer can say well on reflection it was this progression, direction, transit...........not this one and so on.

Quote:
As for Noel and whether or not he is a "real" psychological astrologer, my only comment is that it is good to see the other side fighting over definitions like the traditionalists do.


I haven't seen any fighting amongst Psychological Astrologers or perception that they are on 'another side'. They take the view that the type of 'astrology' you gravitate towards is a result of your historical / (sub) cultural circumstance and your chart.

If you haven't read it Greene's talk on the last 2,000yrs of astrology, and todays diversity, should be of interest.

http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_lifeview_e.htm
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