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trevor
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Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
trevor, that has been my point in the past N posts and I have tried to show why I think the (rather typical) examples of "psychological" astrology do not appeal to me and, most likely, would not appeal to any one who would stop and think how "universal" they are even though they are much more sophisticated than the sun-sign descriptions.


We aren't really getting anywhere here. Psychological Astrology aims to be precise, this is it's main aim. To some extent it is a reaction against the fuzzy psycho-babble common to Theosophical/New Age thinking. If you're not 'precise' you are asked to leave this arena.

But if you are seeking an astrology that promises concrete 'predictions' and believe this notion has a sound basis in the 'tradition' then yes steer clear of it. It's not a paradigm for you!
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geodorn



Joined: 04 Apr 2009
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Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trevor wrote:

We aren't really getting anywhere here. Psychological Astrology aims to be precise, this is it's main aim. To some extent it is a reaction against the fuzzy psycho-babble common to Theosophical/New Age thinking. If you're not 'precise' you are asked to leave this arena.

But if you are seeking an astrology that promises concrete 'predictions' and believe this notion has a sound basis in the 'tradition' then yes steer clear of it. It's not a paradigm for you!


yes, I agree that all this does not apparently lead anywhere and that was my point a few posts back. I still do not see how you can reconcile what you just said with the problems I have pointed out, like those in the quotes you provided, one of which explained a person’s extremely common qualities by a rather unique chart condition. This is not about "predicting concrete events", this is not about being "fuzzy", this is about what is called complex cause fallacy, in other words, the ability to think straight. I do hope that the people you quoted are not representative of the psychological astrology you are talking about (though I do not know why you quoted them then).
Just my two cents. cheers.
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trevor
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Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing to bear in mind is if you think a Psychological Astrologer would do worse than a more ''traditional one'' in picking the chart from a set of 10 once they are given the biography you might be very surprised.

As I said before it aims to use a 'surgical scalpel'.

But they are often using very different 'techniques' to those employed by folks here. Although a lot are no doubt found in the past if we looked closely. If a 'test' situation ever appears I wouldn't put to much money on the 'old fellows' if I was you!

If some of these older techniques in a lock stock and barrel way were so accurate it's unlikely astrology would have had such a rocky ride. It's not as though the human race forget to use the 'wheel' is it.

Psychologists would say we are very attached to things that make our lives easier. We are lazy monkeys at heart.
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Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If some of these older techniques in a lock stock and barrel way were so accurate it's unlikely astrology would have had such a rocky ride. It's not as though the human race forget to use the 'wheel' is it
.

Trevor, you've expressed what has been on my mind a lot lately – but I would say it applies to 'traditional' astrology as a whole, not just some techniques. How is an allegedly valuable and accurate system 'forgotten' if it IS so valuable and accurate? Kings and princes, wealthy landowners, merchants and bankers – the powerful people: There's no way they would have allowed it to slip away if it was so effective! Good results would have led to greater demand as the world's population increased and became more urbanized, each person wanting his or her piece of the pie. Greater supply (more astrologers) would have followed. We can blame the Age of Reason and the development of modern science, but wealth and power as incentives are too strong to allow something so useful to be dropped along the way – if it indeed is so useful.

But it all sort of faded away. And yet, we don't seem to question it as we go about our daily arguments about the best or most accurate old methods. Confused
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PFN



Joined: 28 Dec 2008
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Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirk wrote:
But it all sort of faded away. And yet, we don't seem to question it as we go about our daily arguments about the best or most accurate old methods. Confused


This assumption that astrology would have to develop instead of regressing to a "minor" art is a dangerous one. It as if stating that one has full grasp of the workings of the universe. We've already seen, in the course of history, the loss of knowledge and the fall of society's that had much to add (and for that matter were scientificaly and ethicaly much more "developed" than the ones that would follow). The hellenistic/roman shift to the middle ages is one hell of a good example, and the rise of industry can not be considered as a model of development from various perspectives. Moreover, the accuracy of astrology is compared generally to that of modern astrology and other predictive methods, I never saw stated anywhere that it was such a knowledge that you could substitute real life for it.

Also, it's a good thing to remember that, although experience points to the existence of fate/free will working at the same time as two antagonic forces, astrology deals with that one which can not be changed, hence possible to be predicted, and not with our choices of believing or trying to fight against our fate, even if that is actually impossible.

What I'm saying is that astrology is not the study of how to change fate, it's the study of how fate itself develops. Also, today we have better predictive models than that of astrology, for example the one created by stock market specialists and micro/macro echonomists for example (or do you think that it is not also studying patterns to come to a conclusion about the future?) and just as prone to failure, since astrology itself is a unperfect model, used by unperfect humans. Hence, it's twice unperfect, just like the material world is, as opposite to the spiritual one, or the notion we have of it. And on top of that, astrology's premisse is spiritual. The problema is not if astrology works or not, but why is it not generally accepted anymore? The answer for that is because humans made a choice of shifting from the spiritual world of old to a more material view.
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Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
This assumption that astrology would have to develop instead of regressing to a "minor" art is a dangerous one.


Hi, PFN. It's not a question of astrology developing further or regressing. The question is rather why astrology was dropped, abandoned. Just think of the advantages of being able to foresee the future or seeing your enemy's weaknesses and vulnerable periods. Why would people have walked away from such a practice if it really was all that effective and useful? But the fact is, they did. Therefore, it obviously wasn't. But why is there such current-day belief that the astrology of former times was so effective and useful? Here we are resurrecting and promoting it. And the herd – the mass of those who want so badly to believe – follows along, while the current flock of authors and astro-celebrities guides them along, selling books and services along the way. [There were 3 'alongs' in that sentence, but at this point I'm too lazy and uninterested to fix it. Please, just go along with it.]



Quote:

What I'm saying is that astrology is not the study of how to change fate, it's the study of how fate itself develops.


You're helping my case here! Laughing The human race possessed such a “study of how fate itself develops” (what a source of power!) and simply walked away from it? It says something about the study, doesn't it! And we drool over yet another ancient astrological technique presented to us by a contemporary who oozes confident authority. We must think critically.
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GR



Joined: 14 May 2005
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Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirk wrote:

The question is rather why astrology was dropped, abandoned.


Because people didn't believe in it anymore.

Kirk wrote:

Why would people have walked away from such a practice if it really was all that effective and useful?


Because people didn't believe in it anymore.

Kirk wrote:

But the fact is, they did. Therefore, it obviously wasn't.


That's a assumption. If they didn't believe in it anymore, they would drop it if it worked or not. If they thought it could work better but mucked around with it to the point that it became a silly mess, then they would throw up their hands and say "This stuff doesn't work anymore!", and then they would drop it. If they noticed that most of the names in those books are all in filthy Ay-rab, they'd say "this stuff's written by the wrong people", and then they would drop it.

Kirk wrote:

The human race possessed such a “study of how fate itself develops” (what a source of power!) and simply walked away from it?


Why would you study something you didn't believe in?

Perhaps critical thinking is in smaller supply then previously believed?
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Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
That's a assumption. If they didn't believe in it anymore, they would drop it if it worked or not. If they thought it could work better but mucked around with it to the point that it became a silly mess, then they would throw up their hands and say "This stuff doesn't work anymore!", and then they would drop it. If they noticed that most of the names in those books are all in filthy Ay-rab, they'd say "this stuff's written by the wrong people", and then they would drop it
.

Hi Gabe,

If they had a goose that laid nice shiny golden ones would they walk away from it? How does a person stop believing in the golden eggs he has been collecting? That isn't human nature. In their prejudice and hatred they might criticize those Ay-rab books, but that's hardly going to stop them from learning how to find golden eggs. Human nature, once again. No, folks realized that the goose wasn't all it was said to be.

Regarding mucking around with it until it became a “silly mess”: Perhaps some astrologers did mess around with it too much so that it became ineffective, but some of them would have stayed with the tried-and-true methods that had been bringing in the cash (Stick with what works: Human nature again). Those people and their success in attaining power and money would have served as models for others. Many of the books – those that we now revere and consult – were still around, further keeping open the possibility of a continued tradition. But yet, it pretty much faded away. I can only see that as an indication that the astrological methods didn't – and still don't – deliver the eggs.
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mattG



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Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will stick my oar in this one briefly

Only today on the radio a businessman bemoaned that he could not plan for the future as economists gave a lot of different predictions that were all rubbish anyway.

A while back a european bank based in the far east invested for fun on the basis of astrological predictions made by a local feng shui man. They made money as he was correct but a spokesman assured everyone that they would not normally use astrology.

If I understand Kirk he assumes that people will act rationally in their own interests but in my view that is incorrect. Most people are sheep who will follow the flock.If everyone gets it wrong no one can single you out for blame if you are wrong so everyone takes the consensus view.

Doubtless in the future we will prove astrology as fact and then complain that gullible people still follow the advice of fraudulent economists. Sad

Matthew
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GR



Joined: 14 May 2005
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Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Kirk,

Kirk wrote:

If they had a goose that laid nice shiny golden ones would they walk away from it?


Yes, I do believe so, because,

matt23z wrote:

If I understand Kirk he assumes that people will act rationally in their own interests but in my view that is incorrect. Most people are sheep who will follow the flock.


this is true.

Kirk, you need to get away from the idea that astrology is a "science" in a manner like that of modern science. It's not, and never has been, like a blood test that is going to tell you, yea or nay, that you have some horrible disease or something. All these assumptions you have, about astrology, "human nature", etc., are clouding your ability to perceive clearly. You want astrology to be like this, you want "human nature" to be like that, you want this sunrise to matter and not that one; this isn't an good skeptical approach to the matter. Going like this, you're going to throw your hands up and say "This is nonsense" and then, you're going to drop it. That's more like "human nature".
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trevor
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Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirk wrote:

Trevor, you've expressed what has been on my mind a lot lately – but I would say it applies to 'traditional' astrology as a whole, not just some techniques. How is an allegedly valuable and accurate system 'forgotten' if it IS so valuable and accurate? Kings and princes, wealthy landowners, merchants and bankers – the powerful people: There's no way they would have allowed it to slip away if it was so effective! Good results would have led to greater demand as the world's population increased and became more urbanized, each person wanting his or her piece of the pie. Greater supply (more astrologers) would have followed. We can blame the Age of Reason and the development of modern science, but wealth and power as incentives are too strong to allow something so useful to be dropped along the way – if it indeed is so useful.

But it all sort of faded away. And yet, we don't seem to question it as we go about our daily arguments about the best or most accurate old methods. Confused


As I understand it a few astrologers came to nasty ends when their predictions back-fired, which must have dissuaded a few from getting to involved.

Fortunately today some folks are at liberty to review various ideas and try and cobble some 'systems' together and perhaps some harder evidence for their previous, or current, effectiveness will be more apparent in due course.

Personally i'm not holding my breath although I'm also intrigued, but who knows maybe some of those old fellows were more on the money than most folks think today. It's a long shot I'd say in reference to what we understand about human behaviour today. Although we can be foolish, and are very conformist, and it’s quite plausible some ideas were rashly discarded.

Easily tested, we can erect 10 charts and get people to say who is who from the biography. This should give some assistance as to who, or what, is on the right track.
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Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From Gabe:
Quote:
Kirk wrote:

If they had a goose that laid nice shiny golden ones would they walk away from it?

Yes, I do believe so, because,
matt23z wrote:

If I understand Kirk he assumes that people will act rationally in their own interests but in my view that is incorrect. Most people are sheep who will follow the flock.

this is true.


Before following the flock most people follow their own desires, what they're burning and yearning for. They aren't going to walk away from the ability to attain money and power through astrology simply because that's what the crowd is doing this season!!! There is nothing rational about it. It's simply lust, and that's human nature at its most basic and unrefined. If astrology truly was accurate enough to meet those desires it would have remained a prominent and often used craft or art.


Quote:
Kirk, you need to get away from the idea that astrology is a "science" in a manner like that of modern science. . . . You want astrology to be like this, you want "human nature" to be like that, you want this sunrise to matter and not that one; . . .


I'm in the opposing camp: I think it's more of art. It was a part of philosophy and is part of the origin of modern science, which also branched from philosophy, but they are now worlds apart.

Actually, what I've been saying here and elsewhere is that the wishful thinking of those who are studying traditional astrology has them following some sort of ideal and dream of an astrology that's much more powerful and useful than it really is. They read the books and argue over the techniques that are (for some strange reason) considered to be the most accurate and legitimate – the real astrology. I think I'm being the realistic one. And do keep in mind that Deb wanted that sunrise to matter, and not this one.Laughing



From Trevor:
Quote:
As I understand it a few astrologers came to nasty ends when their predictions back-fired, which must have dissuaded a few from getting to involved.


Possibly a useful procedure? ... Twisted Evil
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PFN



Joined: 28 Dec 2008
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Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 2:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirk wrote:
Before following the flock most people follow their own desires, what they're burning and yearning for. They aren't going to walk away from the ability to attain money and power through astrology simply because that's what the crowd is doing this season!!! There is nothing rational about it. It's simply lust, and that's human nature at its most basic and unrefined. If astrology truly was accurate enough to meet those desires it would have remained a prominent and often used craft or art.


In my first post you said it was not about regress, but that is just twisting words. Now you say this... sorry for being blunt, but do you realize how utterly absurd is this afirmation in light of what astrology proposal means?

"Noone will get rich with astrology" is what astrology screams! You can try all you want, if you were not born to get loads of money easily, you will not. More often than not, you can predict your future all day and only come to very ground based conclusions like:

I'll not marry before 40's. I will not have much money. I'll never attain most of this absurd dreams that keeps haunting me. I'll have 3 children, and one of them will give me lots of problems, the only boy among girls. My studies will grant myself a degree of reliability in life, but I'll have to work a lot for them to matter. I'll have diabetis when I'm around 50.

What astrology does for 99,9% of people is to confirm that they are simple, basic, non special and will not have a destiny worth mentioning in the side notes of a book for our social parameters. So, why would something like that activate human's ambitions? Rather the opposite, it would humble us. The astrology that interest most people is one that does not work because it's heavily based on empty promisses, removed from the reality. Sometimes you may get happy charts, but happy chart people are the ones that care less about astrology. Why would they, their lifes lack problems from any standpoint!

So, what is the usefullness of knowing the day you will die? Well, you can say "I knew" instead of "oh, gosh!". And that's that. Now take this approach for everything else, since you will not get rich because you can predict the future, rather, you will understand the process of how life unfolds from a spiritual discipline called astrology. And then, when there is an accident to happen, you can slightly improve your chance's by taking a first aid kit with you all the time. You will still hurt a lot, but then, that will improve your chances by 0,1%, maybe? Sometimes, quite often less than more it gives a positive result, and it may be just that small difference that means survival x death. If you attain that through astrology, congratulations! It's fit to adapt, not to change, and even as an adaptation tool, it's impact is quite small.

Astrology is just another tool for prediction among all the others we have, albeit with a longer range, but suffering from less precision, and by having this tool at hand, you do not change suddenly and realize what was impossible from the start. Knowing this, the only moment people will need it is when they despair, not when they are going their way all right. If their way will not change because of it, why bother? But when despair strikes, to know the future can give a degree or two of peace, since this despairing may be about to end, and that is a hell of a comfort, at least for me. If it's not the case, oh well, grit the teeth and put Mars to work.
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GR



Joined: 14 May 2005
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Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirk wrote:

It's simply lust, and that's human nature at its most basic and unrefined.


Fear is more powerful then lust, though they are running off the same biological machinery.

Kirk wrote:

If astrology truly was accurate enough to meet those desires it would have remained a prominent and often used craft or art.


PFN seems to have already noticed your assumption of some unfettered free will.

Kirk wrote:

I'm in the opposing camp: I think it's more of art.


I really like Robert Schmidt's idea, regarding natal astrology, that it is a rational construct developed in order to make human life intelligible, if I'm remembering correctly.

Kirk wrote:

Actually, what I've been saying here and elsewhere is that the wishful thinking of those who are studying traditional astrology has them following some sort of ideal and dream of an astrology that's much more powerful and useful than it really is.


Honestly this is where you're talking out of your hat, Kirk. Maybe you haven't been able to see any good out of it, but don't tar everybody else with the same brush. I do sympathize with the aversion to Tradition(TM) people, because I am of the opinion that there was a lot of degradation as opposed to inovation the further along we get from the origin(s) of Western astrology.

Kirk wrote:

From Trevor:
Quote:
As I understand it a few astrologers came to nasty ends when their predictions back-fired, which must have dissuaded a few from getting to involved.


Possibly a useful procedure? ... Twisted Evil


Wouldn't some psychoanalysis be worse? Twisted Evil
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Deb
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Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kirk wrote:
And do keep in mind that Deb wanted that sunrise to matter, and not this one.


Excuse me? Why bring me into this thread? Sect is a lesser matter in the astrology that I personally use, so I don’t feel as passionate about it as you think. But I do understand the traditional theory, (so I recognise when ‘new theories’ are being ‘made up’ and delivered with mock authority), and I do think it is irrational to believe that your day starts later than your neighbour’s if they have a higher fence than you, and I did say that I couldn’t relate to your problem - but that is partly because I don’t want to repeat myself when I’ve given my view, take it or leave it.

I don’t relate at all to your comments in this thread, but then I don’t recognise any of the traditional astrologers whose works and life-achievements I respect to have been money-grabbing, power-driven, or golden-egg-chasing. Exactly the opposite – those that gained prominence did so because of their wisdom, insight, and intellectual genius. The wonder, really, is why does astrology always survive – no matter what persecution, political repression or change of worldview that we experience? The theory of it is full of apparent insanity and astrologers are intelligent, well educated people; but yet it survives, besides requiring the brain to develop new methods of perception. This is an occult study that requires deep reflection, sincere study, years of personal maturity – it might have a popular appeal but few stay the course long enough to be able to fully understand the works such as Kepler’s or John Dee’s.
It is, (I think), in many ways, a dangerous study, and it can make slightly crazy people tip off the edge (because of the problem of trying to understand life, the universe and everything!); but there must be some kind of 'effort of will' going on to ensure that the right works get to the right student, because gravity alone would have buried astrology centuries ago.
Instead there have been regular waves of preservation and rediscovery. We might think that our generation is the one that is ‘rediscovering’ things, but the German astrologers of the Wittenberg region – Montulmo, Regiomontanus, Schoener, Rheticus, and so on, prided themselves for being the generation that recaptured the lost works of the past. The monks who laboured to copy out the manuscripts did the same. The Arabs copied out the classical texts to make sure the contents were preserved. People assume that lost works of the past were wilfully destroyed but the reality is that works ceased to exist when new generations didn’t bother to reproduce and replace them. We have a tradition of astrology (no TM!) because it has withstood the pressure of time, fashion, and changing expectation, evolving/adapting in places, but always remaining capable of engaging intellectual and emotional interest. And - this point will not impress anyone, I know - my experience is that it works. Reliably so. I don't personally need it to, but I have found that it does.
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