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The Current Saturn/Uranus Opposition...
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Eddy



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
Posts: 922
Location: Netherlands

Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb wrote:
It is, (I think), in many ways, a dangerous study, and it can make slightly crazy people tip off the edge (because of the problem of trying to understand life, the universe and everything!)....
Nothing could be more true. I sometimes have to put astrology aside for a while for not getting my mind trapped in a labyrinth of thoughts Shocked .
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mattG



Joined: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 345
Location: Greenwich UK

Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the subject of our base motivations what about vanity. We think clever words and arguments can help us understand the divine realms when the occasional bit of silence and humility would not go amiss.
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###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1380

Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In reply to Deb:

Quote:
kirk wrote:
And do keep in mind that Deb wanted that sunrise to matter, and not this one.


Excuse me? Why bring me into this thread? Sect is a lesser matter in the astrology that I personally use, so I don’t feel as passionate about it as you think.


I followed my original statement with “ Laughing ". As I had been criticized for choosing the moment of sunrise, I was merely pointing out the irony that you also had a choice of sunrise moment. I was responding to Gabe's implication that I was wrong in making a choice, but you apparently weren't. That's all.


Quote:

The wonder, really, is why does astrology always survive – no matter what persecution, political repression or change of worldview that we experience? The theory of it is full of apparent insanity and astrologers are intelligent, well educated people; but yet it survives, besides requiring the brain to develop new methods of perception.

Is it really so surprising that it does survive? After all, philosophy survives, religion survives, the search for an understanding of life survives. That's why astrology survives: It helps people navigate through life. It's the process of studying astrology that provides the healthiest benefits, not the astrological techniques themselves.

And there is the scandal and failure of current pursuits of traditional astrology: The leaders, the authors and teachers, provide plenty of technical flash, but very little in the way of philosophical preparation and guidance. They don't guide the student through the process of transformation that can be initiated by astrological studies. There need to be fewer discussions about the most accurate predictive techniques, and more discussions about the act, ethics and implications of predicting astrologically. This shouldn't be simply a side dish – it needs to be the main course. But the teachers and authors are instead working hand-in-glove with the students' desires to predict and to receive the benefits and possible acclaim those predictions can bring. Would the students lose interest with more philosophical discussion? Most of them sure would, and that means fewer customers for the teachers. Now we mostly have astrological consumers, with astrological vendors providing the goods. Students functioning on a certain level will be met by teachers functioning on a certain level.


Quote:
This is an occult study that requires deep reflection, sincere study, years of personal maturity . . .

It's fun to imagine Ptolemy shrieking in horror at the idea of astrology as an occult study. Very Happy No hidden mystical or spiritual proceedings for him. He was a rational science kind of guy – an outward focus upon the world and its phenomena.

I read your statement as an implied agreement that the natural 'unrefined' human state is one of unenlightened personal desire and interest. Deep reflection, sincere study and years of personal maturity are good antidotes to the driving desires and self-interest. Saturn cools Mars.

But to return to the original point: Since desires such as the hunger for money and power will always be around and active, that would mean that astrology as 'desire fulfiller' through prediction and analysis of enemies and friends should also have always remained in wide active use. The fact that it fell mostly into disuse indicates that people discovered that the techniques really aren't all that effective.

But it doesn't matter. We've seen how the true purpose of astrology, that which keeps it alive (if sometimes barely), is the process and act of studying astrology. The true value of astrology may lie in the useful shock of self-discovery when we realize we've spent yet another evening trying to predict life's turns.
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Deb
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
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Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder who you have been studying with (or is this experience of what teachers do based on an expectation of being taught by the internet?)

Quote:
They don't guide the student through the process of transformation that can be initiated by astrological studies. There need to be fewer discussions about the most accurate predictive techniques, and more discussions about the act, ethics and implications of predicting astrologically.


So do something about it. Instead of making criticisms of the 'system' as a whole, be an agent for improvement in the system and take it upon yourself to write and disseminate some of the more ethical material. Or would that not be quite as much fun as finding the holes to stick your fingers through ? Hmmn...
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###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1380

Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I wonder who you have been studying with (or is this experience of what teachers do based on an expectation of being taught by the internet?)


The Internet experience is very much behind this. Isn't the Internet a huge part of astrological studies now? The Internet is a fantastic marketplace and many teachers who would go about their subject ethically and focused on the deeper issues in small local gatherings are tempted to keep a finger or two on the scales when weighing their goods on the Internet. The prize is widespread fame as well as cash coming in. The Internet has replaced the conference circuit as the road to expanded fame and fortune. The students want astrological proficiency and want it now. The Internet brings the teachers and students together and everyone talks high-speed astrology with some critical slow-speed issues being dropped.


Quote:
So do something about it. Instead of making criticisms of the 'system' as a whole, be an agent for improvement in the system and take it upon yourself to write and disseminate some of the more ethical material.


But I am already speaking out at a very prominent astrological site and making a case for wider awareness of ethical and philosophical issues, at the risk of being ridiculed and unpopular. Compared to the discussions of technical issues and romance horary questions I'm bringing up something out of the ordinary for consideration, something that might not be as fun as a confident and ego-pleasing display of technical skill.
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trevor
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Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb wrote:
kirk wrote:
And do keep in mind that Deb wanted that sunrise to matter, and not this one.


I don’t relate at all to your comments in this thread, but then I don’t recognise any of the traditional astrologers whose works and life-achievements I respect to have been money-grabbing, power-driven, or golden-egg-chasing. Exactly the opposite – those that gained prominence did so because of their wisdom, insight, and intellectual genius. The wonder, really, is why does astrology always survive – no matter what persecution, political repression or change of worldview that we experience? The theory of it is full of apparent insanity and astrologers are intelligent, well educated people; but yet it survives, besides requiring the brain to develop new methods of perception. This is an occult study that requires deep reflection, sincere study, years of personal maturity – it might have a popular appeal but few stay the course long enough to be able to fully understand the works such as Kepler’s or John Dee’s.
It is, (I think), in many ways, a dangerous study, and it can make slightly crazy people tip off the edge (because of the problem of trying to understand life, the universe and everything!); but there must be some kind of 'effort of will' going on to ensure that the right works get to the right student, because gravity alone would have buried astrology centuries ago.
Instead there have been regular waves of preservation and rediscovery. We might think that our generation is the one that is ‘rediscovering’ things, but the German astrologers of the Wittenberg region – Montulmo, Regiomontanus, Schoener, Rheticus, and so on, prided themselves for being the generation that recaptured the lost works of the past. The monks who laboured to copy out the manuscripts did the same. The Arabs copied out the classical texts to make sure the contents were preserved. People assume that lost works of the past were wilfully destroyed but the reality is that works ceased to exist when new generations didn’t bother to reproduce and replace them. We have a tradition of astrology (no TM!) because it has withstood the pressure of time, fashion, and changing expectation, evolving/adapting in places, but always remaining capable of engaging intellectual and emotional interest. And - this point will not impress anyone, I know - my experience is that it works. Reliably so. I don't personally need it to, but I have found that it does.


There's plenty of ways to argue against the demise of astrology here and there being due to its lack of effectiveness. If astrology is so 'hard' to utilise effectively, as you suggest, then we shouldn't assume folks are always going to be around to do so.

I wouldn't be all that surprised if Psychological Astrology (i.e cross fertilisation of depth, humanistic and transpersonal psychology) left the radar a bit in the next 50yrs since it's so time consuming, and expensive, to 'master' and it may be that it's had it's golden period. I don't see many young folks coming through in this area.

But who's to say it won't be re-discovered 200 yrs down the line and someone comes along and says well it must have been nonsense otherwise it wouldn't have disappeared.

Someone was saying to me recently, I forget whom or where, that one factor at the end of the 17th century was the amount of 'charlatans' bidding for business. Seems to be the same today if you look around the Internet, so maybe then and now this effects people’s motivations to get involved. What's the point if at the end of the process it's a toss of the coin whether someone comes to see you or Mystic Meg or whoever?

I doubt if astrology in the near future will get it’s act together and seek to regulate since there are a few, maybe quite a few, ‘charlatans’ (in my view) who are seen as genuine astrologers . Although perhaps now’s the time with Pluto going through Capricorn to kick out those who go to far into the Dark and/or New age and end up presenting seamless nonsense.
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