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His SR vs. my Natal, and vice versa
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janders36



Joined: 26 Apr 2009
Posts: 33
Location: New Orleans

Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:57 pm    Post subject: His SR vs. my Natal, and vice versa Reply with quote

Hi all,

I am having trouble finding the answer to this online, but are conjunctions between Solar Returns vs. someone else's natal chart significant?

I have been having an off-and-on relationship with a Pisces, and in my effort to figure out where this relationship is going I was looking at his SR. He has a packed 7th house for this upcoming year, but I also noticed that his SR Vertex is exactly conjunct my natal North Node (like within a few seconds of each other). Also, his SR Vx is in his 5th house, and my natal NN is in my 5th.

I noticed another conjunction, but it wasn't as tight as this one. Is this at all significant?
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kerenhappuch



Joined: 07 Jul 2005
Posts: 396
Location: UK

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi janders36,

The Solar Return is relevant only to the original natal chart upon which it is based. It has no other relevance.

Think of the natal chart as the roots of the tree - from that grow Solar Returns, Lunar Returns etc. The branches connect to the roots of that tree alone.

If you are interested in looking at a relationship, simply compare the two natal charts. This is the simplest way to look at the basics of the relationship.

However, remember that the natal chart contains a lot of information. In a relationship that's as young as the one you describe, don't expect to discover the relevance of each and every connection between your chart. The unfolding of a natal chart takes time (a whole life time!) and the unfolding of a relationship may of course take just as long.

In an initial comparison, you will most certainly be able to locate the indications of initial attraction, and sexual compatibility. However, a deeper understanding is possible only over time as the relationship develops.

Hope this helps.

Keren
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janders36



Joined: 26 Apr 2009
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Location: New Orleans

Posted: Sun May 03, 2009 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kerenhappuch wrote:
don't expect to discover the relevance of each and every connection between your chart. The unfolding of a natal chart takes time (a whole life time!) and the unfolding of a relationship may of course take just as long.


Thanks so much for the clarification Keren. You are so right about not knowing the significance of every connection right away. With our relationship being new, and obviously having limitations, the most obvious aspects are the ones that are now confronting us at this stage. His Venus conjunct my Moon. Our Asc/Desc conjuncting. Also, I think the fact that my natal Saturn square my Sun is also making an impact on the conjunction with his Venus, as this relationship has restrictions based on work issues. Those aspects are the ones that are manifesting in the relationship at this stage.

Thank you for taking time to respond, it clears up a long-standing question I've had!

The chart I am referencing:
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PFN



Joined: 28 Dec 2008
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Location: Ouro Preto, Brasil

Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I started with astrology, I would try to make synastrys between SR/Natal as well, in order to get answers. After sometime I dimissed this as a mistake from a begginer, still, the "method" is not completely unsound. But you will hardly get any reliable answers from this when compared with other methods, and the work level is too high.

First, you may think of the SR as the start or end of a cycle, represented as a time frame in the life of the person. To get sense from that, you recur to the Natal chart, since it will be able to say if that moment in time is good/neutral/bad (quite often a seemingly bad RS when solo looked upon, can be the virtuous completion of a life cycle, if the AC falls on the same degree, and alongside planets return to the same spot, as says Morin. Hence the necessity of the natal chart to compare).

So, when you compare a different SR, the time of the chart will be off, since that SR is not a cycle belonging to the Natal chart. Still, in the case of family members, or close tied people, the fate of one directly affects that of other, so you can look for testimonies that helps to delineate a scenario. Suppose, for example, that two persons have joint finances. If the SR of both indicate gain in the year, also in accordance to their natal charts, it helps you to have a surer answer about things (do not forget that a huge difference in dates of anivesary can mean you are looking at two different years or better said, promises, as well).

So, in the case of synastry, after you know that you are active part of that person's life, your SR conecting to a lot of points in the other chart can mean things in common, or things that will be highlited in your common life. I'd consider only angles falling on the same point with analogue planets aspecting by a very short margin, though.

Still, this method gives little usefull information, for it's too complex, since you are looking at 4 charts at the same time. And you could just see how it would develop looking at your own SR, which is quite easier (since your partner will be represented there as well, just focus on that, a badly placed 7th ruler, in disagreement with your natal chart, hurting the AC or AC ruler would not be nice, just as the opposite would be joyfull).
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Tom
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Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The solar return is indicative of events for the year. Next year it's a different solar return. Since the return is normally read in context with the "owners" nativity, looking at it in the context of the nativity of another person seems illogical. However let's assume that this is a valid technique. Then whatever contacts between the two charts would only be valid for a period of one year.

I'm not much on synastry under any conditions, but that's another story. However, if I were to embrace the ideas of synastry, I would certainly look for more than a conjunction, no matter how tight, between points. That is not enough to make a relationship. Ideally there should be enough in common to enable meaningful sharing and enough different to create and maintain interest. A node and a vertex isn't enough to do either. If the charts were indicative of a successful relationship, would we discount that possibility if the only troublesome indications were the nodes in adverse relationship with the vertex? I doubt it.

Tom
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Gunhilde



Joined: 10 Jun 2006
Posts: 800

Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm not much on synastry under any conditions, but that's another story.


Why not, Tom?

I guess the only thing I would add about synastry charts (if we are to believe them) is that they only work as well as the people who own the charts. Composite charts appear much more interesting. Case in point:

Mr. Gunhilde and I have fantastically opposing synastry charts. He has a five-planet stellium in Gemini, all squared Saturn in Pisces and the triple-Virgo conjunction of Mars/Uranus/Pluto. (So he's difficult, anyhow). As a Sadge Sun/Venus myself, most of Mr. Gunhilde's planets either oppose mine or square mine: our Venuses are opposed, as are our Marses, by rather small orbs, too. So, if we look solely at the synastry chart, it's a disaster. And it's true: it's a challenging relationship for both of us. Smooth? No. Love/hate? Sometimes.

BUT.

Our composite chart (using Davison midpoint method as an example) shows a relationship that is reasonably stable, if energetic and not exactly blissful: Moon in the 3nd trine Saturn in the 7th, Mars sextiling a large stellium in Virgo, and Venus conjunct Jupiter. Saturn in this particular chart is the 5th ruler, and we take our parenting duties to be the primary reason to keep the marriage going, although there is of course more to it than that. It still shows that the marriage isn't an 'easy' one, but we've been married nearly fifteen years, so *something* must be working, and this must go, in part, back to our individual natal charts and how we view relationships in general.

Mr. Gunhilde has a 2nd house Cancer moon, so stability/security are very important for him, despite having such a mad-hatter chart. My Sun sits right on his DSC, and his 7th ruler Jupiter is conjunct his Sun. My 7th ruler is the Sun in Sadge, in the 11th, trine my natal Moon and sextiles Mars. So both of us, in our own (very different) ways, put a lot of energy into relationships. We are both 'people persons', and relationships are important to us.

So, yeah, just looking at a synastry chart isn't going to be sufficient, since you can have the most perfect synastry chart in the world and end up with no relationship. This happened to me once, which is why I put less store in synastry than I used to. It's more up to the individuals and their personal strengths/hangups!

GH Smile
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Tom
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Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Why not, Tom?


It doesn't show the basis for attraction and holding interest. It shows things that may work out if the attraction is there and the interest holds. In other words, at its best it is secondary. I could have the most fantastic synastry with Lady X, but there may not be enough in common to begin much less sustain a relationship. It is not too surprising that a long time married couple would have good synastry, but it is also, to me anyway, not too surprising that two people who can't understand each other would also have good synastry.

In order for a relationship to work there has to be things that are complimentary as well as things in common. I've never been persuaded that synastry is capable of doing that by itself.

Tom
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Eddy



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
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Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
It doesn't show the basis for attraction and holding interest. It shows things that may work out if the attraction is there and the interest holds. In other words, at its best it is secondary.


Is the concept of synastry a rather modern one (19th/20th century)?
Kepler mentioned hereditary patterns of repeating similar Sun-Moon aspects of familymembers. But I don't know of classical synastry as it is understood today.
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margherita



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Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eddy wrote:


Is the concept of synastry a rather modern one (19th/20th century)?
Kepler mentioned hereditary patterns of repeating similar Sun-Moon aspects of family members. But I don't know of classical synastry as it is understood today.

is women favourite subject, but Ptolemy talks about it too, using - if I'm not wrong - the Greek word synastry.
Better, the word should be mentioned just in Ptolemy and his followers.
According my teacher it's one of the very rare subjects where modern astrology follows traditional one: Ptolemy mainly mentions the case planets are swapping their positions.
There are several kind of friendship for Ptolemy (he is following Aristotle) so we can consider Sun and Moon, Ascendant or Part of Fortune according the case (Quad; IV,7)

And in every case transits and ingresses highlight moments of peace and moments of was between lovers or friends.

I believe you can find the same in all Ptolemy's commentators, Cardano, Gaurico, Lilly.

Margherita
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Mark
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Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe synastry can accurately mirror the dynamics of a relationship that is already established. Equally, the points made by Margherita about transits and Ingresses are fair enough.

However, is synastry any good at predicting which people will form a relationship?

Surely, there are too many variables involved such as age , culture, religion, and that intangible X factor? I also tend to agree with what Tom has said.

Moreover I haven't noticed astrologers ( traditional or modern) are any more insightful in this area than any other part of the population. We all have 'puppy eyes' in a new relationship and often see what we want to see. The same applies to an astrologer analysing a potential partner's chart.

Still I haven't done much of this kind of chart for others so I dont claim my views are a product of massive experience. By all means tell me I am wrong. As a singleton it would be quite refreshing...... Lala Happy


Mark
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margherita



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Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarkC wrote:
I believe synastry can accurately mirror the dynamics of a relationship that is already established. Equally, the points made by Margherita about transits and Ingresses are fair enough.


Ptolemy, not Margherita.

"and it is to be observed what planets are in aspect to that place, both at the actual time of nativity, and at that of any ingresses made upon it, or oppositions to it. "

He is talking about slaves to be honest, but strangely enough he mentions them together with lovers!


Quote:
However, is synastry any good at predicting which people will form a relationship?


You already know the answer, you should firstly carefully observe the quality of both nativities.
A man who is not inclined to marriage will not marry, whatever sinastry chart.

Moreover I tend to agree with you, there are several factors to consider, but this is true for me even in one person, let alone two.

Margherita
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PFN



Joined: 28 Dec 2008
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Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, my 2 cents, and this is not much, but in newly met couples, I find the AC falling on each other's DC a good start. It does not determine anything, but is better than the AC on each other's 6th-12th.

When this does not happen, at least a planet on each other's 7th is generally required for something to bloom...

Alongside other factors, obviously... and planet's conjunct every possible angle and swapping places are common in marriages.
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Eddy



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
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Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Margherita, I've found Ptolemy's text, http://www.sacred-texts.com/astro/ptb/ptb70.htm#fr_262

Gjiada wrote:
He is talking about slaves to be honest, but strangely enough he mentions them together with lovers!
I cannot deduce that from the text. Did Ptolemy mention this somewhere else?

MarkC wrote:
Surely, there are too many variables involved such as age , culture, religion, and that intangible X factor? I also tend to agree with what Tom has said.
This is what I believe too. In fact Ptolemy too would probably have done this. When he starts on the individual somewhere in the beginning of book III, he mentioned that before delineating the person, you also need to look where the person is born etc.

Although I never deeply investigated solar returns I can imagine that comparing it in synastry would be of some use. In a transit a Jupiter transit to two planets of a synastry may stimulate a good start of a love affair or something like that. On the other side, quite a few of my own synastries I had looked at with indeed puppy love eyes lead to nothing Confused .
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Tom
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Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Although I never deeply investigated solar returns I can imagine that comparing it in synastry would be of some use.


Anthony Louis in his recent book on solar returns makes a valid observation. The solar return is the key in a given year that unlocks part of the nativity. This is true and it has nothing whatsoever to do with the chart of another individual. Let's say the solar return indicates marriage. If the significant other's chart has a good synastry with the return, at best it is going to be a a very short marriage.

Quote:
In a transit a Jupiter transit to two planets of a synastry may stimulate a good start of a love affair or something like that.


Assuming transits alone are enough to do this, just because Jupiter stimulates two love inspiring planets, one in each chart, it does not follow that these two would be irresistibly attracted to each other. They may each be looking for love, but hate each other and go find it somewhere else, possibly with people whose Jupiter is unstimulated.

Tom
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margherita



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Posted: Wed May 13, 2009 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eddy wrote:
I cannot deduce that from the text. Did Ptolemy mention this somewhere else?


Last lines of the same chapter 7.

With respect to servants, the sign of the evil dæmon is considered as the place to which the disposition ruling over them must be referred; and it is to be observed what planets are in aspect to that place, both at the actual time of nativity, and at that of any ingresses made upon it, or oppositions to it; and also, especially, whether the lords of the said sign may be configurated in familiarity with the ruling places of the nativity, or not in familiarity.

Margherita
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