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J.B. Morin on Combustion and Cazimi
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PallasAthene



Joined: 23 Apr 2009
Posts: 693
Location: Bristol, UK

Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 8:53 pm    Post subject: Re: J.B. Morin on Combustion and Cazimi Reply with quote

Tom wrote:


Third: He rejects the idea of cazimi as ridiculous (his word, not mine) on the grounds that all the older astrologers say the closer a combust planet is to the Sun the weaker it gets. So, if say, Jupiter continues to get weaker as it gets closer to a partile conjunction, how can it all of a sudden gain great strength once it reaches the center? That’s a fair question.


My mum has saturn conj the sun in cancer. Cazimi to the second.

Now, I would have thought that this would produce someone who fulfilled even the most rigorous responsibilities, especially in relation to the family. In fact, I was fostered.
I love my mum, but she is more weighed down by responsibility than enhanced by it. She is quite insecure. She herself was adopted and though she has traced her mother, the woman refuses to give any details about her father.
After the age of about 40 she became a professional foster carer, giving scores of children a home who would otherwise have been in institutions.. which could be the signature manifesting?

Any thoughts on delineating cazimi saturn in cancer? (If it exists..)

Tom wrote:

Fourth: Mercury is combust a lot, yet all the astrologers attribute great things (the powers of mind) to Mercury, a planet that is habitually weak according to the doctrine of combustion,


Well, there ARE a lot of very stupid people in the world!
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Estebon_Duarte



Joined: 19 May 2009
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Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:13 pm    Post subject: Re: J.B. Morin on Combustion and Cazimi Reply with quote

PallasAthene wrote:

Any thoughts on delineating cazimi saturn in cancer? (If it exists..)



Saturn is still in Cancer, his worst detriment, so the accidental dignity of cazimi probably won't be enough to help.

Cazimi and Combustion being an "accidental" dignity/debility need other mitigating factors like sign placement and support from their dispositor or the benefics to display their potential.

Interesting is its differing use when applied to different techniques, for example, in Abu Ali's On the Judgements of Nativities (pg.299,dykes) concerning the native's "Significator of Mastery" (Professional Significator);

"And if the Sun aspected it or were with it, so that he would even burn it up with his rays, it signifies he is a high master, and of the greatest loftiness, and a writer for kings, and of great value among them, with a noble mastery and much teaching."

now here we are not to be concerned with other dignities or debilities, just the fact that the Sun is in aspect to the Significator of Mastery, (similar to my example above). If there were another significator combust in a chart then this debility might be considered a different way.
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yuzuru



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Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If there were another significator combust in a chart then this debility might be considered a different way


Another thing that I believe is that, what is good for the significator of profession may not be as good for the significator of love or children, etc. So, the same mercury combusted could have a pretty different result for his profession and his children (for instance).
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Estebon_Duarte



Joined: 19 May 2009
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Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yuzuru wrote:

Another thing that I believe is that, what is good for the significator of profession may not be as good for the significator of love or children, etc. So, the same mercury combusted could have a pretty different result for his profession and his children (for instance).


Exactly! this has played out in my charts as well. it makes sense, what amplifies or enhances the significations of a planet for one signification doesn't necessarily bode well for another signification.
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Chip



Joined: 11 Nov 2010
Posts: 15

Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

this is an awesome topic...

Quote:
"his grand work, the Astrologia Gallica, took him 30 years to write..."


This is likely NOT due to combustion of Mercury. It's purely accidental. His Sun is in the 12th - the house of imprisonment. As such, his "brightness" or "lucidity", would not see the light of day (pun intended). That it surfaced after 30 years, is problaby due to Cap on the 10th, secondary directions, and transits (as no doubt, he would suggest). Morin's Sun combusts Jupiter and Venus. Saturn, and the Moon are under sunbeams. You have 5 of the remaining six significators in his 12th (since Mercury is on the doorstep).

So, he had a
Quote:
"high opinion of himself"
- he would have to have had. Mars is literally driving him to complete his work within the confines of his private life. The significators are all applying with the exception of the Moon separating from Mars and Saturn. He seems to me a man of action, and not of substance.

Also, you've the peregrination of Mercury in Aquarius (a wandering yet innovative mind), and NO COMBUSTION since it is Out-of-Sign. Moon and Saturn peregrine in Pisces - trapped in his work, and meandering from job to job... but, he sort of likes this "getting nowhere" (Saturn is in Joy)...

in this case, I would argue, similar to Estebon_Duarte, that Morin "needs help"... if you can map his associates, or rivals to his significators, Bishop of Boulogne, Duke of Luxembourg, Galileo, and Decartes, combustion reveals itself... Jupiter shows his network with clergy, philosophers, etc. (rules Morin's 8th and 9th house cusp), he tried to "burn", and got "burned" by his his consociation... Galileo, and Decartes have pratical contributions, and inventions which stand the test of time, and in some regards, Morin was lead astray by the church...

Speaking of Rene Descartes, his Sun combusts Jupiter, too... you can see that he shared the same monolithic view...

Quote:
"Morin believed disciplined logic could produce an astrological system..."*

- the difference between the two? is in the "where" do I practice the "disciplined logic"... I wonder what DeBono would say? he who is so clearly in love with his mind, and free from combustion... Wink

Quote:
"This is a man who once told his friend, Rene Descartes, that he knew as soon as they met, that Descartes' philosophy was flawed"*

- he knew it because he was older, and suffered from the same debility... Sun combust Jupiter...

if I'm Morin, and I'm smart enough to get you to "re-think" astrology, I'm definitely smart enough to "hide my new (astrological) philosophy" (Jupiter combustion) from those who can dissect it...

*http://www.skyscript.co.uk/morin.html

Quote:
"It just doesn't follow that it is such a powerful accidental dignity that it overpowers essential dignity. "


Hey Tom,

I look at essential dignity like I would DNA... accidental dignity does not "overpower" per se... you have a predisposition with DNA, and the other is the contribution from environment... for example, if I have the predisposition of a "murderer", and I grow up in the slums of Detroit, and join a gang, I will have opportunity and motive to kill, likely pulling the trigger... if I attend Oxford law, and become a preeminent attorney, and I affect legislation for capital punishment, I kill by jury, and execute it with a stamp and wax seal... in each scenario, it is justified within the context of a particular society, or set of protocols... the act doesn't change... murder is murder...

You're examples are stimulating, and I would like to chime in on your Merc Asc chart...

I'm assuming that Merc is not Retrograde since Mars is ignored... and the Sun is conjunct Polaris which debilitates further than a grand trine with peregrine Moon, and partile South Node...

I liken this to a metaphor of televangelists... if it's combust, you're looking at Jim Bakker, getting caught, and doing time for delivering and living a message that he doesn't believe in... if it's under sunbeams, you got Oral Roberts, who is affected by scandal not of his own, but is guilty by association, and his ministry suffers... if you're Billy Graham, the message is relatively unscathed (btw, his Merc is under sunbeams, and Venus combust in his chart)... it's about the delivery of the message, and not the 'quality' of message itself...

I will actually post a 'real' natal chart with combustion, and would like to discuss a 'real' event from the native's life... it superimposes another combustion from her progressed chart... it may let us arrive at a conclusion regarding the apperceived effectiveness of combustion...
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Chip



Joined: 11 Nov 2010
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Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



http://sites.google.com/site/astrochip/

Here we have a natal chart as the centre circle, and the secondary directions as the outer ring...

In the natal chart, Sun (0°15'24" Aries) combusts Mars (2°59'54" Aries) which is classically a good thing since we have hot and dry Sun, and hot and dry Mars in hot and dry Aries. Can we be more dignified?

We have have Venus (25°49'48" Pisces), the significator of the child in Pisces (non-combust since out-of-sign), but partile sextile to Caput Algol (piled-up corpses).

The Part of Children in Sagittarius is conjunct the Asc at 8°36'0", but none-the-less in the house of imprisonment. Very unfortunate. It sextiles Jupiter (6°10' 0" Libra). A planet of fertility in a barren sign. Jupiter is opposed by two strongly barren planets, and separating from conjunction with an exhalted barren planet called Saturn (6°55'15" Libra).

Jupiter and Saturn are both retrograde, and essentially debilitated.

The Part of children opposes the Part of Fortune.

The significator of the father is Mercury. It just so happens that this woman conceived a child with a Sun Pisces.

In the progressed chart, we have Mercury (14°20' 0" Aries) applying to Sun (26°17' 0" Aries) and currently under sunbeams, Mars (23°16' 0" Aries) combust Sun, and Venus (28°36' 0" Aries) combust Sun.

The 5th house cusp of Children is partile conjunct Caput Algol.

Saturn (4°55' 0" Libra) is on Return.

Moon (23°34' 0" Virgo) is applying to partile trine with Caput Algol (piled-up corpses).

Venus in Aries is within 5° of the 4th.

The secondary directions were cast the day on which the native terminated a pregnancy.

The termination of the child can be shown by combustion, and is further strengthened by House V contact to a malefic star.

The upcoming dissolution of the relationship with the father two weeks later by the native can be shown by the eventual combustion of Mercury, and the ensuing separation from Moon-Algol trine (Moon can signify relationship in progressed chart).

The woman in question said "'her friend' dropped a fetus while sitting on porcelain"... the reality is that the native aborted a child in her home by pill (combusted Venus conjunct 4th)

Looks to me like three planets got "burned". Mars (the native), Mercury (the father), and Venus (the child)...

Where was the strength of the Sun/Mars trine Asc (9°20' 32" Sagittarius) in the natal chart of the native?

- thoughts and contributions are welcome
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Tom
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Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm travelling and don't have the time at the moment to go into this in depth, but there are a few observations.

1) Lilly is the only authority that I'm aware of (Maybe Ptolemy?) that claimed combustion was limited by sign lines.

2) Morin had no use for combustion under any circumstances.

3) Few if any authorities use aspects to fixed stars (conjunctions only), however the fact that a planet would conjunct Algol in the future would be taken into consideration even though it was out of orb in the birth chart. The piled up corpses reference is from Chinese astrology but it does seem to fit in some charts. I'm not sure how an abortion fits Algol's symbolism though.

4) Some would say Mars cannot be combust as it is in domicile.

5) Mars trine Sun in the 5th has more than one possible meaning and unless it is triggered at this time somehow, I didn't look closely, it may have nothing to do with the incident.

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TonyLouis



Joined: 03 Oct 2006
Posts: 79

Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirk wrote:
... I do think that Morin had a bias against combustion due to his natal chart. With Venus and Jupiter combust, and Mercury if one counts out-of-sign planets, Saturn heading into combustion, and the Moon just breaking away from under the Sun's beams, I can see an innate resistance on his part to the idea of weakness or dependency ...
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/morinchart.html


In Book 21, Chapter 3, Morin does not even mention combustion when he says that his Jupiter and Venus protected him from the negative influences of the 12th house: "I always eluded the worst due to Jupiter an Venus in good celestial state..." In Chapter VIII: "I have Jupiter and Venus in the 12th house in Pisces - the domicile of Jupiter and exaltation of Venus - and I have been saved from any serious illnesses and frequently managed to avoid incarceration. I have won out over hidden enemies, even those very influential ones shown by the Sun, so that for all their power and ill will they were unable to do me harm." Clearly, Morin regards a well-placed benefic to be more powerful than the peregrine Sun in the unfortunate 12th, even though the benefic is combust the Sun.

In Chapter 2, when Morin gives examples of what he means by good celestial state, he does not even mention combustion: "Every planet in good celestial state, such as in its own sign or exaltation or triplicity, oriental to the Sun and occidental to the Moon, free from adverse aspects to malefics, in direct and rapid motion, etc. is said to be benefic universally and for the whole world."
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zuli



Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 83

Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder since the peak of the eclipse is considered worst then how come a planet in cazimi to be fortified. Can we say such a planet in cazimi is even worse than one under the sun rays?
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Lazarus



Joined: 10 Dec 2014
Posts: 88

Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2015 3:07 am    Post subject: In response to Chip: Reply with quote

I'm only 4 years late to this but wanted to chime in anyway:

The termination of the child is actually more likely shown by the fact that Mars and the Sun are both barren planets, in a mostly barren sign, angular, while Venus is cadent (though in Pisces) and Jupiter is retrograde conjunct Saturn (also retrograde) in Libra and opposing Sun/Mars (all of which you did say). The part of children's dispositor is afflicted by its conjunction to Saturn (although he receives Jupiter). Furthermore Mars/Sun are in the 5th sign from the Asc while Saturn is in the 11th sign from the Asc and clearly has more power than Jupiter via being in Libra. Therefore the barren planets predominate in this chart, for Venus/Mercury (in a fruitful sign) are cadent.

he combustion is therefore not necessary to take into consideration for proper judgement in this case and I don't see this example a illustrating, particularly well, the effects of combustion.

Children is a more complex affair than just looking at the 5th house and the part of children. I recommend seeing what Bonatti has to say regarding children and child birth in the natal chart.
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