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Dear All, desperately need your wisdom on this...
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Lana8



Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 7

Posted: Sat May 22, 2004 3:45 pm    Post subject: Dear All, desperately need your wisdom on this... Reply with quote

On May 22, 2004, at 17:17 PM I asked a question "Will I have children and if I do when,how many and which gender". Belgrade, Serbia and Montenegro, 20E30, 44N49, Time zone -1:00.
Dear All (and forgive me but specially Deb), I wouldn't be bothering you with my current problems, but since I am totally obsessed with this subject in recent time, I wanted to consult people with more knowledge and experience then me in this horary question. Just to add a thing or two - I am perfectly healthy person, never had any health problem (or abortion, misscarriage or similar), in long relationship with also healthy man, but something what was recently astrologicaly interpreted for me made me worried. My boyfriend and I were planning to start a family soon, so you can imagine what kind of impact this astrologer's words made on me (he mention that I will probably have difficulty in staying pregnant and that he thinks that I will have only one child, boy, at my 37th year). Since I have been reading a lot about astrology and studied our natal charts (also our sinastry and composite charts), I know that I have Venus in IV house in Cancer, also my V house is in Cancer, and in my amateur opinion one thing that is not so good is my boyfriend's Saturn in Gemini in V house.
Could you be so kind to take little time and give me at least few words of your opinion for which I will be most thankfull to you all.
My data is 25 July 1974, at 21: 45, 20E30 44N49, time zone -1:00.
My boyfriend's data is 9 August 1972, at 17:35, 20E30, 44N49, time zone -1:00.
Thank you all SO MUCH in advance - from your very interesting posts one can learn a lot!
I wish you all the best

Lana
???:
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Deb
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Lana,
I’m sorry that you’ve been left distressed but before you take this astrologer’s comments too much to heart I think that you should go back to him and ask him to give the full astrological signification behind his comment. If it amounts to nothing more than you having Venus in Cancer in the 6th and your boyfriend having Saturn in the 5th, then I’d just forget it. Without knowing who the astrologer is, it’s hard to know whether his experience and credentials justify the weight you’ve placed on his prediction.
I tried to draw the horary but I make the timezone – 2 hrs from GMT, not -1 hr. If that’s correct 0 degree rises, making me wonder whether this cause for concern has any real validity, particularly since you’ve had no previous health problems or physical indications of pregnancy difficulties.

One thing that is known for sure, women tend not to fall pregnant when they are full of anxiety and concern about falling pregnant, and the last thing you want if you do fall pregnant is the kind of worry that could allow this to become a a self-fulfilling prophecy.
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Lana8



Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 7

Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 6:21 pm    Post subject: Dear Deb, please read this Reply with quote

Dear Deb,
thank you so much for replying me so quickly. But first let me answer you about something what you advised me to do - to ask the astrologer who really frighten me, about the arguments for opinion which was given to me. I asked the astrologer immediately as we finished our conversation, what are the arguments for claiming that I will probably have difficulties in staying pregnant and have only one child and the answer was:
I have Sun in V house and in Leo, and that is bare sign for children in the house of children. I replied that I have Venus in Cancer in IV house, but the astrologer said that I also have Saturn in Cancer in IV, and (you were right in advance about this one!) that my boyfriend has Saturn in Gemini (which is not water or earth sign) and in V house. Those were the only arguments I got.
So, you can only imagine my present state of constant worry and wondering (although I try to be quite rational and explain to myself that the astrologer I went to is not so much astrologicaly educated if all the arguments I were given were the ones I just mentioned to you).
That is the reason why I wanted to consult other, more educated and experienced astrologers, because I am hoping that you would be so kind to me to just give me your opinions about the subject which worries me presently so much.
Also, I am sorry that I forget to tell you in my previous post - the time zone is +1 GMT, because the place of birth for my boyfriend and me is
Belgrade, Yugoslavia (Serbia and Montenegro). If it will help you, I have mine and his chart done by Astromart and on the site Astrodienst, so here there are:
My data
Sun Leo 2.31 Ascendant Aries 9.24
Moon Libra 28.54 II Taurus 19.29
Mercury Cancer 12.55 III Gemini 14.16
Venus Cancer 5.37 IV Cancer 4.31
Mars Leo 28.56 V Cancer 25.33
Jupiter Pisces 17.20 R VI Leo 23.18
Saturn Cancer 11.35 VII Libra 9.24
Uranus Libra 23.54 VIII Scorpio 19.29
Neptune Sagittarius 6.59 R IX Sagittarius 14.16
Pluto Libra 4.33 Midheaven Capricorn 4.31
Lilith Aquarius 8.21 XI Capricorn 25.33
Asc node Sagittarius 18.32 XII Aquarius 23.18

Sun in V
Moon in VII
Mercury in IV
Venus in IV
Mars in VI
Jupiter in XII
Saturn in IV
Uranus in VII
Neptune in VIII
Pluto in VI
Lilith in XI

The data for my boyfriend:
Sun Leo 17.10 Ascendant Capricorn 22.35
Moon Leo 22.57 II Pisces 11.11
Mercury Leo 13.58 R III Aries 22.01
Venus Cancer 2.45 IV Taurus 19.57
Mars Leo 26.37 V Gemini 11.13
Jupiter Sagittarius 28.52 R VI Cancer 0.38
Saturn Gemini 18.06 VII Cancer 22.35
Uranus Libra 15.12 VIII Virgo 11.11
Neptune Sagittarius 2.29 R IX Libra 22.01
Pluto Libra 0.18 Midheaven Scorpio 19.57
Lilith Scorpio 18.40 XI Sagittarius 11.13
Asc node Capricorn 25.59 XII Capricorn 0.38

Sun in VII
Moon in VII
Mercury in VII
Venus in VI
Mars in VII
Jupiter in XI
Saturn in V
Uranus in VIII
Neptune in Midheaven
Pluto in VIII
Lilith in IX
Asc node in Ascendant
And also from Astrodienst:

for Me (female)
born on 25 July 1974 local time 09:45 pm
in Belgrade, YUG U.T. 20:45
20e30, 44n50 sid. time 18:19:42
PLANETARY POSITIONS
planet sign degree house
Sun Leo 02°31'02 05
Moon Libra 28°53'29 07
Mercury Cancer 12°54'47 04
Venus Cancer 05°37'10 04
Mars Leo 28°55'23 06
Jupiter Pisces 17°19'57 12
Saturn Cancer 11°34'57 04
Uranus Libra 23°54'23 07
Neptune Sagittarius 06°59'58 08
Pluto Libra 04°31'29 06
True Node Sagittarius 18°31'26 09


HOUSE POSITIONS (Placidus)
Ascendant Aries 09°24'01
2nd House Taurus 19°40'19
3rd House Gemini 14°22'15
Imum Coeli Cancer 04°31'12
5th House Cancer 25°27'31
6th House Leo 23°10'00
Descendant Libra 09°24'01
8th House Scorpio 19°40'19
9th House Sagittarius 14°22'15
Medium Coeli Capricorn 04°31'12
11th House Capricorn 25°27'31
12th House Aquarius 23°10'00

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

and My boyfriend (male)
born on 9 Aug 1972 local time 05:35 pm
in Belgrade, YUG U.T. 16:35
20e30, 44n50 sid. time 15:10:04
PLANETARY POSITIONS
planet sign degree house
Sun Leo 17°09'45 07
Moon Leo 22°56'14 07
Mercury Leo 13°57'52 07
Venus Cancer 02°45'41 06
Mars Leo 26°36'19 07
Jupiter Sagittarius 28°52'09 11/12
Saturn Gemini 18°05'36 05
Uranus Libra 15°12'51 08
Neptune Sagittarius 02°29'29 10
Pluto Libra 00°16'56 08
True Node Capricorn 25°59'19 01


HOUSE POSITIONS (Placidus)
Ascendant Capricorn 22°35'35
2nd House Pisces 11°06'26
3rd House Aries 22°03'42
Imum Coeli Taurus 19°57'44
5th House Gemini 11°08'05
6th House Cancer 00°26'58
Descendant Cancer 22°35'35
8th House Virgo 11°06'26
9th House Libra 22°03'42
Medium Coeli Scorpio 19°57'44
11th House Sagittarius 11°08'05
12th House Capricorn 00°26'58

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And our composite horoscope:
Composite Horoscope midpoint method
PLANETARY POSITIONS
planet sign degree house
Sun Leo 09°50'23 06
Moon Virgo 25°54'52 07
Mercury Cancer 28°26'20 06
Venus Cancer 04°11'26 05
Mars Leo 27°45'51 06
Jupiter Aquarius 08°06'03 12
Saturn Gemini 29°50'17 04
Uranus Libra 19°33'37 08
Neptune Sagittarius 04°44'44 09
Pluto Libra 02°24'12 07
True Node Capricorn 07°15'22 11


HOUSE POSITIONS (Placidus)
Ascendant Pisces 00°59'48
2nd House Aries 15°23'22
3rd House Taurus 18°12'58
Imum Coeli Gemini 12°14'28
5th House Cancer 03°17'48
6th House Cancer 26°48'29
Descendant Virgo 00°59'48
8th House Libra 15°23'22
9th House Scorpio 18°12'58
Medium Coeli Sagittarius 12°14'28
11th House Capricorn 03°17'48
12th House Capricorn 26°48'29

If you could be so kind to take a look at our data, and if not reply me to my horary question, please at least tell me what do you think about my worry for children - what does my chart tells you, will I have child/children and can an astrologer see what gender they will be?
I am so thankfull to you Deb, and all the others who maybe have some opinion about my current worry - thank you all so much for the time you take for writing me!
I hope that I will hear soon from you and wish you all the best

Lana
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Sue



Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 945
Location: Australia

Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 3:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Lana,

I tried to draw the horary chart too but got the same as Deb giving a very early Mars ruled ascendant. Could you confirm if the time of your question at 17:17pm was CET (-1 hrs GMT) giving the chart an ascendant of 18° Libra or CEDT (-2 hours GMT) giving a 0° Scorpio ascendant. I believe Belgrade is currently on CEDT (summer time).

Cheers
Sue
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Lana8



Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 7

Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 1:37 pm    Post subject: Dear Sue, the right time! Reply with quote

Dear Sue,
first thank you so much for replying me! I am sorry (again) for causing trouble with not giving all the necessary data for my horary question, but the only excuse I have is that I am totally new at this - that is, this is the first time for me ever to ask a horary question, so I hope you and the rest of the members of this forum will understand. You are absolutely right - currently, Belgrade is on summer time, so the second option you wrote would be the correct one.
If I can only add one thing again (and that is something which made me very curious in astrology, beside my current situation) - could you have any opinion based on my natal chart about having children and which gender they will be? I am only amateur, but I have read Lilly's views about it and I have been following all sorts of astrological texts I could find about this theme.
Also, I have been advised by a friend of mine that if I want to know the answer to the question when I will probably have first child to do primary direction, then classical progression and then to see when the cusp of the V house makes good aspects.
I would very gladly do all that, if I only knew how! (and then off course I wouldn't be torturing all good people in this forum).
Also, I forgot to mention that the astrologer I went to said to me that he clearly sees a boy for me in 2011 and maybe a girl in 2009. He didn't gave me any arguments for that, so I am wondering naturally why then??
And one last question for the end (and maybe for some future topic)
can you see from the woman's chart who gave birth to five girls, will she maybe in the future have a boy?
I was asked to put this question by my friend who has five girls, she's born 12 April 1974, at 13:30 pm, in Belgrade Yugoslavia (Aries/Leo). By my "studing" of her chart, she really has some of the indications for having girls (and lots of children - Moon in Sagitarius in V house, in 29.16). What do you think about that?
To resume - Sue, I hope I gave you the answer you needed for helping me in my problem, and Deb, I hope I'll hear from you too!
Anyway, I am very thankfull to you both, and hope to see your posts as soon as you can send them to eagerly waiting

Lana
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Deb
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Lana,

I don’t have time to look at the birth charts I’m afraid. But I don’t even think there is any need. You said:

Quote:
I have Sun in V house and in Leo, and that is bare sign for children in the house of children. I replied that I have Venus in Cancer in IV house, but the astrologer said that I also have Saturn in Cancer in IV, and (you were right in advance about this one!) that my boyfriend has Saturn in Gemini (which is not water or earth sign) and in V house. Those were the only arguments I got.


That is nowhere near enough for me to take the comments seriously. Leo is termed barren in traditional divinational astrology, but it doesn’t mean that those who have the Sun in Leo in their birth charts, or Venus conjunct Saturn for that matter, are blighted by barreness. If it did everyone born between 23rd July – 22nd August would have a poor chance of being parents, whereas most children are conceived in the late summer months. People with much, much worse configurations have given birth to a healthy breed of children. The zero degree rising on the horary suggests this isn’t a relevant issue of concern. Really I think you should just forget it. He’s already contradicted himself by saying that you will only have one child, and then saying you’ll have a boy and maybe a girl as well.
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Ficina
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Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 1807
Location: Kent, England

Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Lana Smile

I am sorry you are so worried over this. Please try not to worry. I know this is easy advice to give but not so easy to put into practice. But remember, things happen when they happen in their own good time, and no amount of poring over astrological charts is going to make it happen.

Horary works best with specific questions, not the "will I ever" type of questions. "Will I ever have children?" "Will I ever get married?" These kind of questions are just too vague. For someone perhaps who has been trying for a long time to have children and it hasn't happened, then a question along the lines of "is there a medical problem" or something like that would be more productive because it is addressing something specific. You say that you and your boyfriend are planning to start a family. You are only at the planning stage at the moment! Give it time, try to relax and go with the flow. "Everything will unfold as it should." Good luck! Smile
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Lana8



Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 7

Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Deb, it's quite alright that you don't have time for a quick look at our birth charts - I am so thankfull to you for your input on subject which concerns me. And, dear Ficina, thank you for your kind words - you are right, it is easier said than done, but I will keep in mind that we are still at the very beginning, so I will start to panic only after a while if nothing good happens. To put aside my question, the truth is that I am very curious can an astrologer from a woman's chart who is already mother "see" her pregnancies (or maybe abortions and misscariages) or even, can a good astrologer predict to a woman who is not yeat mother the number and gender of her still unborn children? That is why I put the question about a friend of mine who already has 5 girls - is it possible to see that from her chart?
I was hoping that this subject could interest someone and that I could maybe get some advices for the sites on Internet on which I could find some articles about this theme. So thank you all for any advice that comes to your mind and for puting it here, on this topic.
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Deb
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
can a good astrologer predict to a woman who is not yeat mother the number and gender of her still unborn children?


I’ve never had the experience of trying to do this with any great degree of precision from a birth chart. I have, of course, noticed reinforcing factors in a birth chart, but where someone has shown a real cause for concern I’ve judged the matter mainly from the horary chart. I have noticed, for example, that people with certain configurations in their birth charts can have problems and issues about pregnancy, and alarm bells have rung when certain friends or clients, with a collection of difficult contacts significant to this issue, have mentioned that they want to start a family. But mostly I’ve got the details from horary and have checked them against the nativity and tried to look for good fertile transits to indicate periods that might work well for them. A good Jupiter transit offers a lot of hope. Jupiter is known as a ‘fertile’ planet, of course, but it’s also a relaxing planet and I’m sure that being relieved from stress and worry helps.

I’ve worked on quite a few charts where this has been a big issue. It’s not something that I would ever want to look at ‘quickly’ because of the harm that can be done when you don’t treat the issue with sensitivity and caution. Curiosity is not a good basis to put the matter to a horary and looking through my files the horaries I have on this matter are very much ‘in focus’ – that is, just a few days later something very significant happened, such as the querent discovering that she is pregnant or suffering miscarriage. Thankfully, in most of the cases I have worked on, the querent eventually had a child, but often after years of emotional distress.

There is a page of traditional aphorisms relating to pregnancy on this site at
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/pregnancy.html But please be aware that most people are too quick to lay the stress on a couple of negative indications. The charts I have dealt with that have shown difficulties are almost overwhelmingly negative and difficult.

To some extent I have mixed views on your question above. My sister suffered terrible emotional anguish in her attempts to become a mother. Her birth chart, and that of her husband, were both riddled with all the traditional signs of infertility. She endured a number of miscarriages over a period of 12 years, her first when she was 20. She would often beg me to look at the astrology and predict whether the fertility treatment or the pregnancy would be successful. I found the whole experience distressing because we are very close and I was sharing all her disappointments, so I was very selective in what information I passed on to her. She saw some of the charts, others I held back from her, but they were all extremely valid, clear, descriptive, and unambiguous in predicting what was about to happen.

After 12 years she was still pounding this issue and it was ruining her life and emotional health. For some time, the family had felt it was best to discourage her from getting her hopes up yet again and that we ought to help her come to terms with the fact that she would probably never have a child, (they couldn’t adopt as the husband was over the age-limit in force at the time). Various treatments and surgical operations had failed, she had suffered a life-threatening ectopic pregnancy, and her fertility treatments were having a heavy financial toll. One day when she was very upset she asked me to look at her charts again and tell her if she had any hope of being a mother. Everything looked as bad, if not worse, than all the other times, but this time I felt an overwhelming urge to ignore the astrology and let my feelings, as her sister, take control. So I just tore the chart up and said ‘ah astrology is rubbish, what does the chart know?’. I pointed out that everyone around her was always telling her to be careful and cautious but that’s hardly an attitude that’s conductive to creativity, so why not be reckless and confident, live with the ups and downs, and stop getting distraught? We both of us suddenly felt very confident and agreed that nothing should stand in the way of her positive belief and if she really wanted this she should never give up, no matter what the cost; but it had to stop being such a thoroughly negative and soul-destroying journey.

Just after that the doctors told her to give up all hopes of having a child, and I think that this was the malevolency I’d seen in the chart. There were two many infertility problems on both sides and too much of a likelihood that if by any miracle she did get pregnant, she would miscarry or have an ectopic pregnancy, so her fertility treatment was ended. Needless to say it wasn’t long after that, when she stopped ‘trying’, stopped looking for ‘good transits’ and just left everything ‘in the hands of God’, that she found herself pregnant, and said she’d ‘never felt better in her life’. She gave birth to a healthy baby boy and two more sons followed shortly afterwards, making the idea that she’d ever had fertility problems seem ridiculous.

I’ve just spoken to my sister before posting this (to make sure she doesn’t mind me discussing it), and she told me there’s another irony involved. She herself works as a medium and does some astrology but years ago when she was younger she was told by another medium that one day she would have children, but only when she had stopped wanting them. She said she had always remembered that as one message she regarded as ridiculous, because she knew she would never stop wanting them (she is a Cancerian, very Moon-ruled and VERY maternal). Yet it was only when she’d stopped focussing on having a child and stopped making that the centre of her hopes and wishes that it happened. Our joint opinion is that the fertility problems that are clearly shown in her birth chart indicate that part of her ‘life-plan’ involved an issue of being able to find strength and contentment even in the face of being denied the source of emotional happiness she yearned for most. She couldn’t get over that until she found a point of balance in herself that didn’t give up hope but didn’t allow her to get destroyed by disappointment either. That’s one of the reasons why, although I believe that birth charts indicate our limitations, the limitations may be subject to constant revision, and I would never deny anyone the prospect of growing beyond the relevancy of a limitation suggested at birth.

That’s all a different issue from being able to predict how many children, when and what gender? I’ve never tried to do that. The charts I’ve worked with have had a particular pregnancy issue in mind and even then, before I would judge a chart for a client, I would have to feel that there is something useful and positive that an astrological analysis can offer.
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Tom
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Posts: 3447
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Lana,

I'm going to give you an analysis of your birth chart regarding your question about children. I promise NOTHING. In fact, this may end up being worth precisely what you're paying for it, but the method, supposedly, has validity.

Using Placidus cusps I get 9 Aries 23 rising and 25 Cancer on your natal fifth. Cancer is one of the fruitful signs; this is a plus. Cancer's ruler the Moon is in Libra and in the 7th house, angular giving her strength. Libra is neither fruitful nor barren yet the Moon is the symbol of fertility. This too is a plus. Aries is neither frutiful nor barren. Mars however is in Leo a barren sign. So far the fruitful testimonies outweigh the single barren testimony.

Now in the old days which I occupy, it took two to get pregnant, you and a male of the species. That male is represented by the 7th cusp, Libra and his 5th house is Capricorn. These signs are neither barren nor fruitful. Their rulers, Venus and Saturn are both in fruitful signs. More positive testimony. Venus is on the cusp of the IC which makes her stronger. She is also conjunct the part of fortune (I don't reverse at night) or lot of the Moon, more positive testimony.

It is my considered judgment that you should not put away the birth control devices just yet. In fact, your problem may just end up being the opposite of what you fear.

Take Deb's advice, relax and forget what you were told about not having children. You may produce an army.

Tom
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Lana8



Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 7

Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Deb,
I was very moved reading about your sister and all the problems she went through (not to mention emotional pain). I can only imagine how comparing to this very dramatic example (but with happy ending!), my question about the number and gender of children in woman's chart, seems trivial. So, please forgive me for that - if you understood it like that, it wasn' t my intention to imply that astrology is a hocus-pocus by which one can find out will he or she have one day a boy or a girl. No. My worry (beside that astrologers valuation of my and my boyfriend's chart, which frighten me) was this - is or can astrology be so accurate to really predict from a woman's chart how many children will she have or what gender will they be? I was curious to find out more about astrological methods that are used for such subject. Off course, in the light of the story you shared with us, I am returning to one thing that really counts - it is of no importance if it is a girl or a boy just as long as it is healthy and sound.
So, thank you for your input, i will listen to your advice about relaxing and taking things in easy way. I am very glad that your sister is today mother of three healthy boys and I hope that they are more than a golden reward for all the pains and troubles she went through just to have them.
Dear Tom,
i am very, very thankfull to you for taking some time and bring me (although you are not promising nothing, LOL) good news. Off course, you are totally right - the birth control devices will stay here for a while, because we have a few things to do before starting a family, but I hope that when we do, nature will take its course.
Also, I have a plea for you and Deb (and off course all the others benevolent to participate) - I mentioned to you my friend who has a question about her potential family (she has 5 girls). It is not my intention to bother you or bore this forum with questions about her birth chart or anything similar, but as an astrological excercise for myself (and others who may be interested) could you tell me what are the indications in her chart or of her husband that show that those two will have 5 girls and maybe more children? I spoke to them previously about posting this question and they are totally ok with it. So, here are the data for her and him:
My friend: born 12 April 1974, at 13:30, Belgrade, Yugoslavia.

Sun Aries 22.08 Ascendant Leo 2.51
Moon Sagittarius 28.08 II Leo 21.45
Mercury Aries 1.17 III Virgo 15.14
Venus Pisces 5.55 IV Libra 15.43
Mars Gemini 25.18 V Scorpio 23.19
Jupiter Pisces 7.45 VI Capricorn 1.11
Saturn Gemini 29.29 VII Aquarius 2.51
Uranus Libra 25.54 R VIII Aquarius 21.45
Neptune Sagittarius 9.21 R IX Pisces 15.14
Pluto Libra 5.02 R Midheaven Aries 15.43
Lilith Capricorn 26.43 XI Taurus 23.19
Asc node Sagittarius 21.18 XII Cancer 1.11
Sun in Midheaven
Moon in V
Mercury in IX
Venus in VIII
Mars in XI
Jupiter in VIII
Saturn in XI
Uranus in IV
Neptune in V
Pluto in III
Lilith in VI
Asc node in V

Her husband:
born 11 November 1973, at 01:15, Belgrade Yugoslavia.
Sun Scorpio 25.31 Ascendant Virgo 23.16
Moon Virgo 4.54 II Libra 17.55
Mercury Scorpio 10.47 R III Scorpio 17.45
Venus Capricorn 12.33 IV Sagittarius 21.52
Mars Aries 25.45 R V Capricorn 26.28
Jupiter Aquarius 6.13 VI Aquarius 27.17
Saturn Cancer 3.50 R VII Pisces 23.16
Uranus Libra 25.23 VIII Aries 17.55
Neptune Sagittarius 6.44 IX Taurus 17.45
Pluto Libra 6.05 Midheaven Gemini 21.52
Lilith Capricorn 10.31 XI Cancer 26.28
Asc node Sagittarius 28.51 XII Leo 27.17
Sun in III
Moon in XII
Mercury in II
Venus in IV
Mars in VIII
Jupiter in V
Saturn in Midheaven
Uranus in II
Neptune in III
Pluto in Ascendant
Lilith in IV
Asc node in IV

I have been reading that her having Moon in V house in Sagitarius is an indication for having lots of children, specially since the Moon is on 28.08, which is the sign for a woman whose carier is to be a mother. Also, her ruler of the Vth is in Pisces and conjuncts Venus, so this (as I interpreted it) can stand for having many girls.
So, what do you think? Also, can you presume will they have more children and do you see a boy in the future for them? (I was asked to put this question, I think because of the pressure which on her make all his family expecting a grandson in near future).
I thank you for your following answers and eagerly wait for them.
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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 566

Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom (or should I say Mr. Cool),
I was so totally intrigued by your analysis of her chart that I simply could not resist tabulating a few sample charts of people who I know that have or do not have children.

Lana,
You wonder if astrology is strong enough to predict whether or not someone will have children. The following proven examples should help illustrate something to that effect:

Tom,
So to come back to you, I painstakingly tabulated your analysis into 12 questions; I hope I got them the way they are meant to be. Next, I judiciously counted the barren/fertile testimonies in my sample charts to come up with the results. Somehow, I felt compelled to go through this arduous procedure and prioritized it over the other 50 things that I was supposed to do today…so here goes…

1) What sign is at the cusp of the 5th house?
2) What is the 5th sign ruler?
3) What sign is the 5th sign ruler located in?
4) What is the sign of the ascendant?
5) What is the ruler of the ascendant?
6) What sign is the ascendant ruler located in?

7) What is the sign of the partner?
8 - What is the 7th sign ruler?
9) What sign is the 7th sign ruler located in?
10) What is the sign on the cusp of the 11th (5th from 7th)
11) What is the ruler of the 11th?
12) What sign is the 11th cusp ruler located in?

Here’s what I found – responses correspond to the questions. I put a blank line between the questions that relate to the person and those that relate to their partners.
“F” Fertile; “B” Barren; “N” Neither

Case 1, My girlfriend:
1) Cancer: F (5th cusp)
2) Moon: F, angular, strong (ruler, 5th)
3) Gemini: B (sign of 5th ruler)
4) Aquarius: N (asc)
5) Uranus: B, angular, strong (ruler, asc)
6) Leo: B (sign of 1st ruler)

7) Leo: B (7th cusp)
8- Sun: B (ruler, 7th)
9) Gemini: B, angular (sign of 7th)
10) Capricorn: N (sign of 11th)
11) Saturn: B (ruler, 11th)
12) Capricorn: B (sign of 11th ruler)

Totals:
Fertile: 2
Barren: 7
Reality: She really wanted children all her life but her partner didn’t. She has no children and now it’s too late (i.e. biological clock)

Case 2; My Husband:
1) Virgo: B
2) Mercury: N
3) Pisces: F
4) Gemini: B
5) Mercury: N
6) Pisces: F

7) Sag: Dual
8- Jupiter: F
9) Sag: Dual
10) Pisces: F
11) Neptune – Neither
12) Scorpio: F
Totals:
Fertile: 5
Barren: 2
Reality: We have two beautiful children

Case 3; A friend, Male:
1) Capricorn: N
2) Saturn: B
3) Capricorn: N
4) Virgo: B
5) Merc: N
6) Cancer: F

7) Sag: Dual
8- Jupiter: F
9) Aquarius: N
10) Cancer: F
11) Moon: F
12) Sag: Dual

Totals:
Fertile: 4
Barren: 2
Reality: He has no kids, unlikely that he will, but you never know….he is single as of yet.

Case 4, Myself:
1) Sag: Dual
2) Jupiter: F
3) Scorpio: F, angular
4) Leo: B
5) Sun: B
6) Taurus: N

7) Aquarius: N
8- Uranus: B
9) Leo: B
10) Gemini: B
11) Merc: N
12) Aries: B

Totals:
Fertile: 2
Barren: 6
Reality: I have 2 beautiful children

Conclusions????
4 samples do not make for a conclusive study, but just off-hand –
The first 2 cases correspond to the reality of the situation.

Some observations:
Case 1: She has 2 fertile signs in cusps, etc. related to herself. She always wanted children. But they seem to be getting overpowered by her partner's signs related to children, i.e. all barren, and this is the reality of the situation.

Case 3: 4 fertiles and 2 barrens, but he has no kids. Could it be possible that this person himself will not have his own biological children, but his partner may have children from another man; because all of the Fertiles are coming from the partner’s position of planets, etc.

Case 4: I have a preponderance of barren signs in my chart - 6 compared to 2 fertiles. However, Jupiter, which is the ruler of my 5th is angular and conjunct the Moon; maybe this takes precedence over the numerous other barren indications in my chart??

Do the dual signs convey anything?
What do you think?
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Tom
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Posted: Sat May 29, 2004 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

Your friend has Sagittarius on the 5th cusp ruled by Jupiter who is angular and conjunct Venus in Pisces. That alone is enough to assure children and more than a few. On top of this, she has the Moon, the goddess of fertility on the 5th cusp. The Hellenistic Greeks, according to Robert Schmidt used the 10th to indicate children and with Taurus on the MC ruled by an exalted Venus conjunct Jupiter in Pisces (and don't ignore the mixed mutual reception between Jupiter and Venus) there is little doubt she can easily get pregnant pretty much at will.

Her husband's side is a bit more difficult to understand as he is represented by Saturn in Gemini, a barren sign and the turned 10th has Scorpio a fertile sign on the cusp but is ruled by Mars in Gemini. Maybe if his planets were in fertile signs she would have 10 kids.

So for Lana and Taurus, let me explain what I'm doing, but first a few caveats. Nothing in a chart can be taken by itself to mean anything. Everyone born with a barren sign on the 5th will not be barren of everything in the 5th house. Everyone with a fertile sign on the 5th will not have dozens of children, etc. We're looking for several testimonies that point us in one direction. Finally, no method is foolproof.

Barren signs may be interpreted as few, if any, children and fertile signs as oh say more than two. However, with birth control so readily available and women postponing having families the general terms "fertile" and "barren" cannot be taken as absolute.

The fertile signs are the water signs, Cancer, Scorpio, and Pisces. The barren signs are Gemini, Virgo, and Leo. The other signs are neither barren nor fertile. All this indicates is that the odds are pretty good almost all of us can have children. This is true. It is sad and my heart goes out to good couples who genuinely want children and can't have them, but with science pulling new rabbits out of hats every day, even these couples can find help, and God willing, success.

Back to the astrology. The 5th is the house of children so we begin there. In fact the ruler is probably more important than the sign on the cusp so note the sign on the cusp and the sign the ruler occupies. Any planets in the house are important, too, but let's do this as though there are no planets in the 5th. If both are in fertile or one neutral and one fertile or two neutral signs, this is positive testimony that the native will have children. The ASC and its ruler are used in the same way. As the testimonies are added we get a general idea of which way they are going.

The house position is important and Lana's friend's case is a good example. Her 5th has Sagittarius on the cusp ruled by Jupiter in the fertile sign of Pisces. How strong is Jupiter? Well in Pisces he is strong, but in an angle he is stronger still. All her husband has to do is smile at her and she's pregnant. If her Jupiter were in a cadent house, she would still be considered likely to bear children, but probably not so many. If in a succedent house she would have her share.

Then we look to the partner. This is less reliable, I would think, in a natal chart as the native may have more than one partner in her or his lifetime, and not only from divorce. We can continue to look by using the lots. There is a lot of children from Paulus and I'm sure there are others that give similar information.

If all or most of the testimonies are fertile then children are very likely. If the testimonies are middling then the native will probably have one or two, if he or she wants children. If all or most the testimonies are barren then few if any children are possible. Even if all the testimonies were barren, I would not tell a client that he or she will never have children, only that the chart indicates few. The astrologer isn't God, and pushed in the right direction, childless couples often find themselves with a family.

The techniqes would also work for a horary and I would think a horary might be more accurate particularly if the querent was married and trying to conceive.

As for genders, I don't know if there is any reliable way of determining this from the chart. The medieval astrologers looked to the triplicity rulers and the gender of the signs occupied by the planets to make that determination, but just becuase the system is elegant, it isn't necessarily reliable.

My own chart worked pretty well in this regard. I have Leo rising, a barren sign, but the Sun is in Pisces, a fertile sign, and angular. My 5th cusp has Sagittarius and Jupiter is in Sagittarius in the 5th. Now Capricorn is intercepted in the 5th and I have Saturn in Leo in 12. So we have a mixture of testimonies of barren and fertile and neutral and masculine and feminine signs, but mostly masculine. All masculine planets are involved. I have two sons.

My 7th has Aquarius on the cusp and as I said Saturn is in Leo in 12. The 11th, turned 5th has Gemini (barren) on the cusp, The Moon in Cancer is intercepted in the 11th, and Mercury is in Aquarius in the 7th. So even though there are two testimonies of barreness here, I still have two sons.

Be careful with this stuff. Don't be quick to go for the extreme outcome. Also take a good look at the ASC ruler. If the ASC or its ruler shows potential chronic illness that pertains to the reproductive system, all the fertility in the world may not be able to produce offspring. And Lana, fire that guy who told you that you won't have children.

Tom
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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 566

Posted: Sun May 30, 2004 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom,

Thanks for your explanation, very interesting.

Would you or anyone else know how to asses whether
1) a person will marry or not
2) if a person will marry more than once

P.S>
I'm sure you're enjoying the glorious weather we are having in NYC/NJ these days.... Get those shades out!! Cool

Taurus7
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Lana8



Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 7

Posted: Sun May 30, 2004 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Tom,
thank you for your more than elaborate answer to my questions. You certainly cleared some things for me, and I must confess that Ficina and you brought some peace into my mind about my worry will i ever have children or not. So, enough about that - you were kind enough to give me your personal example to assure me that in some things nature and nothing else, must take its course (sorry for repeating myself).
And dear Taurus7,
you intrigued me with your generous offer to knowing how to asses whether one will marry or not. I would like to ask you to let me know about the second part of your offer - will someone, in this case me, marry more than once. Becouse of Uranus presence in my VII house (I also have Moon in VII house), I was once told that I will either be separated (or have an on and off relation with my future husband) from my spouse or be a widow. Could you be so kind to give me your opinion about it? My natal data (with planet position and house position) are given above, so I won't repeat them. Thank you so much in advance!
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