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Rhetorius the Egyptian-Translation by James Holden
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Mark
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Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 3:12 am    Post subject: Rhetorius the Egyptian-Translation by James Holden Reply with quote

The American Federation of Astrologers have recently published a new translation of the 6th/7th century Byzantine Astrologer Rhetorius by the ever prolific James Holden.

The book is entitled Rhetorius the Egyptian

The book is a translation of the Astrological Compendium of Rhetorius, along with the treatises by Teucer of Babylon on the Nature of the Signs of the Zodiac and the Nature of the Seven Planets.

Rhetorius was a significant influence on later medieval astrology so this
work is important to students of both hellenistic and medieval astrology.

Teucer of Babylon (presumed 1st Century C.E.) is the earliest surviving astrological source for the delineation of the decans, and was an important influence on later Arab and Indian astrology. He may have been the primary source for the delineations of the planets and signs found in Valens, Rhetorius, and others.

Mark
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Olivia



Joined: 15 Oct 2008
Posts: 866

Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The non-academic review:

You NEED this book. You really do. It's got one of the same sources as Firmicus, but there's other stuff from way back when in there, too, that you won't find anywhere else. Including a full delineation method (the only one I know of) to come down to us from the full flower of Hellenistic astrology.

Planets in signs and houses! Much career and vocation delineation! Find out if you're a lecher, an effeminate lecher, or a drunken reprobate!

It just plain rocks. Seriously, this is a must have.

And may Mr Holden live to be 120!
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margherita



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Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 1:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Rhetorius the Egyptian-Translation by James Holden Reply with quote

MarkC wrote:


Teucer of Babylon (presumed 1st Century C.E.) is the earliest surviving astrological source for the delineation of the decans, and was an important influence on later Arab and Indian astrology. He may have been the primary source for the delineations of the planets and signs found in Valens, Rhetorius, and others.



Well, Teucer is the famous German scholar Franz Boll's "creature".

Boll published Teucer extract from Rethorius in CCAG and discovered that he was the "Persian" astrologer mentioned in Albumasar Great Introduction.

I believe the German "Sphaera" is in Chris Brennan site,

margherita
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Mark
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Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Well, Teucer is the famous German scholar Franz Boll's "creature".

Boll published Teucer extract from Rethorius in CCAG and discovered that he was the "Persian" astrologer mentioned in Albumasar Great Introduction.


Hi Margherita,

I know you have something of a specialist knowledge here with your time spent studying the decans and paranatellonta. Teucer seems an important source for both.

All I can I state is that I got the above information on Teucer from Robert Schmidt's Project Hindsight website.

Whether the extract is authentic or not are you disputing that there was a real figure by this name? If so why do early sources like the Greek philosopher-astrologer Porphyry (circa 270 CE) refer to "the Babylonian" Teucer?

I would certainly love to read Boll (and Gundel) but my German is quite rusty.

Mark
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margherita



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Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarkC wrote:


Whether the extract is authentic or not are you disputing that there was a real figure by this name? If so why do early sources like the Greek philosopher-astrologer Porphyry (circa 270 CE) refer to "the Babylonian" Teucer?
Mark



But Boll could really invent someone and then publish a fake text in CCAG? Smile

It's just to say that it was Boll that discovered Teucer and even 100 years later nobody could really add something to what Boll said about Teucer and his paranatellonta.

In every case I already read it because Holden published the text some years ago, I believe it's private edition, in every case it arrived to Margherita in Rome in 2006 Smile

Margherita
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Mark
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Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But Boll could really invent someone and then publish a fake text in CCAG?


Not at all. However, I think anyone casually reading your post could have formed the impression you were suggesting Boll debunked the idea as a later construct in the hellenistic era.

Quote:
It's just to say that it was Boll that discovered Teucer and even 100 years later nobody could really add something to what Boll said about Teucer and his paranatellonta


Ok fine. Guess there is no avoiding those German lessons...... Confused

Quote:
In every case I already read it because Holden published the text some years ago, I believe it's private edition, in every case it arrived to Margherita in Rome in 2006


Lucky for you. The point is it doesn't seem to have been that widely available and copies dried up quickly. Now all interested students can access this. I am not sure if Holden has updated this version or whether its identical to the 2006 private edition you already possess.

Mark
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Astraea



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Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarkC wrote:
I am not sure if Holden has updated this version or whether its identical to the 2006 private edition...

Hi Mark. Yes, this is an updated edition, and in fact he includes the prefaces to all three prior (private) editions, along with a fourth preface in which he outlines what has been changed in the new publication.

I really appreciate James Holden's translations, which are crisp and lucid and accessible. This book is a worthy addition to his body of work.
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Mark
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Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Hi Mark. Yes, this is an updated edition, and in fact he includes the prefaces to all three prior (private) editions, along with a fourth preface in which he outlines what has been changed in the new publication.


Thanks Astraea. I dont have my copy yet. I am really looking forward to getting the book to study.

Quote:
I really appreciate James Holden's translations, which are crisp and lucid and accessible. This book is a worthy addition to his body of work.


Yes I have most of his Morin translations. His translation output is awesome. And he is in his 80's I believe? What an example to us all!

I may be wrong but I seem to recall hearing somewhere he was planning to produce a new translation of the Matheseos Libri of Firmicus Maternus?

Mark
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Astraea



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Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarkC wrote:
I seem to recall hearing somewhere he was planning to produce a new translation of the Matheseos Libri of Firmicus Maternus?

That would really be wonderful.

I believe that James Holden is in his mid-80s. I hope that I can be half as vibrant and sharp as he when I reach his age (hyleg permitting)!
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Mark
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Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Astraea,

Quote:
That would really be wonderful.


I was beginning to think I had imagined the idea but I finally tracked it down to an interview with James Holden on Nina Gryphon's blog that came out last year.

Here is Holden on the subject:

Quote:
I have a new translation of Firmicus, for example, that I hope we can get printed this year. And I think it will be a considerable improvement over the Bram translation that’s available now.


The interview was over a year ago so hopefully the new translation will materialize in the not too distant future.

http://gryphonastrology.com/blog/2008/09/02/astrologer-interview-james-h-holden-part-1/

Of course I also forgot to mention Holden's excellent 'Five Medieval Astrologers'.

Mark
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Astraea



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Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for providing that reference and link, Mark! I, too, hope that this translation will become available at some point. And thank you for raising the subject of "Five Medieval Astrologers," which I have not yet had time to study. What a wealth of good, solid material we have nowadays.
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Mark
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Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

More good news!

I have just been told that in his bibliography for Rhetorius The Egyptian, James Holden cites the following new translations by himself as forthcoming in 2009:

-Firmicus Maternus, Mathesis
-Paul of Alexandria, Introduction to Astrology
-Porphyry, Introduction to the Tetrabiblos

Mark
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Olivia



Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr Holden is definitely one of my heroes. And quite seriously, Rhetorius the Egyptian: Astrological Compendium and His Explanation and Narration of the Whole Art of Astrology is a wonderful book.

The delineations on career are absolutely priceless, I can actually see echoes of this in my real life. There is a lot of information in Rhetorius that I have found nowhere else - and much of it still holds if you adjust for different things people do these days.
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Astraea



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Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarkC wrote:
I have just been told that in his bibliography for Rhetorius The Egyptian, James Holden cites the following new translations by himself as forthcoming in 2009:

-Firmicus Maternus, Mathesis
-Paul of Alexandria, Introduction to Astrology
-Porphyry, Introduction to the Tetrabiblos

Wow...I'm reading the book but hadn't checked out the bibliography. This is really good news. So much to look forward to!
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mattG



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Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

This is really good news. So much to look forward to!


I agree.Thanks everyone for keeping us informed.

Matt
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