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Skyscript Astrology Forum

Blair, Bush and the return of Saturn
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Deb
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Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 2:58 am    Post subject: Blair, Bush and the return of Saturn Reply with quote

Maxine mentioned in another thread how the Mars-Saturn conjunction has been pretty unpleasant. Reading her post reminded me of how, at the end of October last year, we were interested in the way that Saturn turned retrograde at 13 Cancer, evading perfection with the conjunction to the Sun in the charts for Bush and the USA (and the sextile to Blair's Sun at 15 Cancer which is natally squared by Uranus). The earlier discussion headed "Saturn, George W Bush, and the USA" can be found here:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=119
The contact is particularly significant for Bush and the USA chart since Bush also has the Moon in square whilst the USA has Saturn natally on the square of its Sun. I've put the charts in below and remember that Garry's 'Scrying Game' article in Transit that started the discussion is available online at
http://www.astrologer.com/aanet/pub/transit/sep2003/garry.htm

Since Saturn crosses over that 13th degree very soon and hits 15 Cancer at the end of this month, it should be worth watching how Bush and Blair bear up (or not) to the latest pressure. The original issue was about whether the first 'near contact' brought an effect or whether the fact that it didn't perfect meant that its effects would be escaped. It seems to me that Bush (and consequently the USA) and Blair have been labouring under Saturn's influence throughout the whole period, but the upcoming perfection offers the crucial make or break point for leadership issues, (leadership issues since the aspect involves the Sun in all three cases). To me, the only evasion of the planetary influence is that it has been drawn out and unresolved, but whilever it has been in orb I think it has shown an effect. Does anyone see it differently?





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Sue



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Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't had a chance to look at this properly yet (I will get to it) but one thing that occurred to me was to look at this particular Saturn cycle and how it might bring together the Gulf War and the current Iraq War. Much has been made of the current Iraq war as an attempt to complete what Bush Senior started. During the lead up to the Gulf War Saturn was in Capricorn. It transited the US Sun (and that of GW Bush) by opposition during 1990 when the situation was developing. In the very week that the Gulf War officially started in January 1991 Saturn was exactly opposite Dubbya’s natal Saturn at 26°. It was squaring Bush Senior's natal Saturn (he was President at this time) and had been squaring the US natal Saturn during the lead up to the Gulf War. Now we have the completion of a cycle with Saturn conjunct the Suns of both the US and George W and Saturn about to conjunct GW's natal Saturn. From a purely astrological point of view, one would expect a possible completion and even resolution to this cycle. But as Rob Hand says, it depends a lot on how the other parts of the cycle were handled. Interestingly, the last American soldiers were evacuated from Vietnam in 1975 when Saturn was at 13° Cancer.
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GarryP
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Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd been wondering about this as well.

I'd agree with you, Deb, that Bush & Blair have been getting a drip-drip Saturn effect over the last few months. Bush's Saturn is natally in his 12th, Blair's is in his 6th, and they've been particularly criticised for prison camp human rights abuses; and for being overly servile to the USA. Which seems to fit.

I asked a horary question: 'What will happen at the transit of Saturn over Bush's Sun?' on 30th Jan 04, 10.47 am, Bradford on Avon (Bath is close enough), UK. 10Taurus42 Asc. At the time I gave up on it because there were just too many variables for me to start making sense of it, but now that we're almost there I thought I'd dust it off. I'm aware in doing this that I'm not really giving the chart the time I'd ideally give it - posting to Skyscript is always a guilty pleasure squeezed between monolithic slabs of demanding work - but maybe one or two of you will find it worth a look and will see things in it that I haven't. So anyway, here are my thoughts:

Bush as president gets 10th house; so (with Capricorn on 10th cusp) he is signified by Saturn.

Looking at turned chart (with radical 10th becoming Ascendant).

Planet ruling 9th (long journeys) – Mercury – has just gone over Asc, and was the last planet to form an aspect with Saturn. Bush’s long journey (to Europe) has just finished. Saturn is not in any dignity of Mercury – the trip didn’t do anything for Bush.

What is on Bush’s mind? Saturn is disposited by Jupiter. Jupiter is also the first and only planet that Saturn forms an aspect to without a change of signs.

It seems to make best sense to take Jupiter as ruler of the 11th – Bush’s supporters, & perhaps dreams and wishes. His thoughts – in the run-up to the election, presumably - are on his support. That support (Jupiter in detriment in Virgo) isn’t in great shape however. Though currently saved from being peregrine by being in its term, Jupiter will have moved out of term by the time the sextile with Saturn is perfected. Interestingly, Jupiter (Bush’s support) is ruled by Mercury – 11th from the 11th – Bush’s supporters are increasingly worried about their supporters & allies. There is, therefore, an all-round lack of confidence.

Bush (Saturn) himself is in a terribly weak position. I’ve already touched on him being disposited by Jupiter. He’s in Cancer and therefore ruled by the Moon, which rules the 7th house – house of war – his position has been weakened by the war. The Moon is getting very close to Algol. But what does that mean? The war loses its head? Possibly there is another senior figure who will follow George Tenet after his resignation as director of the CIA. I guess Rumsfeld would be the 'head of the war', would he? (This side of GW himself, anyway, and I don't see the chart warranting a judgement of anything spectacular happening to him at the Saturn tr Sun. He's just kind of stuck, powerless, and going nowhere.)

Anyone?
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Deb
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Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Hmm, the Moon is also VOC backing up your last comment. It’s also interesting that Bush’s 10th house is ruled by Mars and holds the south node. Mars is strong in Aries but has only 2 and a half degrees before entering into Taurus, its detriment. I wonder if that equates to a period of 2 and a half months from the chart showing mid-April as a time when public support for the war fell significantly?

It’s an interesting reading, but Bush can’t be stuck forever; politics doesn’t allow it. But like you I can’t see the way that Bush escapes his dilemmas from this chart.

Of course, one of the reasons why this current Saturn transit is so interesting is that it falls on the Sun of Bush’s chart and that of the USA; the former with the Moon in square, the latter with Saturn in square. The earlier thread drew reference to the US chart’s Saturn-sq-Sun as being linked to the history of US Presidents that have been killed or have died in presidency. The death of former president Reagan during this Saturn transit might turn out to be the main expression of its influence in the US chart – which reminds me of how Roman emperors used to arrange the murder of a high-ranking official if astrology suggested the loss of an influential head of state – though of course I’m not suggesting Bush had any hand in this Smile

Interesting – is there more to come for the US, or has Saturn already fulfilled itself, leaving Bush merely likely to experience his lowest ebb from which he later recovers? I think not myself; I'm expecting something a bit more significant still to come.

Does anyone have the data for Reagan’s death?
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granny_skot



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Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 4:48 pm    Post subject: time of death? Reply with quote

I'm not certain as to the time of former pres. Reagans death, in the morning I had heard he was getting worse and not expected to last long, by late afternoon I'd heard he'd passed, however Location and date are as follows.

Bellaire, CA (Beverly Hills or Los Angeles if you cant find the other on a map)
5th June 2004

I heard a rumor that the time was 2 oclockish but I'm still trying to track it down.
Confused

granny
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granny_skot



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Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 5:41 pm    Post subject: Found it! Reply with quote

1 pm Pacific Daylight Time 5th of June 2004

I think I'm going to go look at this chart now!

Granny
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Sue



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Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2004 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Things seem to be going from bad to worse for Tony Blair at the moment. I see from Council elections held a couple of days ago that there has been a significant swing away from the Labor Party. From what I can gather, it is the first time that the Labor Party has polled third in an election. The Tories were first and the LiberalDemocrats were second. Commentators seem to be saying it is a backlash against British involvement in the Iraq War. Blair has a couple of difficult transits coming up over the next few weeks, as we have mentioned, including Saturn conjunct his natal Uranus in a couple of weeks at the same time that Saturn will be sextile his Sun. Saturn will square his natal Saturn in August so I'd say his troubles are far from over. It is possible that he might resign suddenly as it all gets too much for him. Uranus can sometimes be like a pressure cooker that will suddenly have to release the built up tension. However, he has been under pressure to resign in the past and has shown no intention of doing so. Alternatively, Rob Hand talks about this transit as being able to withstand a great deal of tension that allows for major changes in a very structured, Saturnian way. One thing that could be of concern during this period is his health which, given his recent past, he cannot afford to be complacent about.
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Deb
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Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2004 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And remember that when Saturn was in this position last year, before it went retrograde, Blair was taken to hospital with a heart scare which started a lot of 'alternative leadership' rumours and rumblings.
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granny_skot



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Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

can you tell me a bit about british parties so I have an idea what they mean? for instance in the US, Republican party is alleged to stand for business, small government, frugal government spending ... though the big kickers actually tend to be they are considered anti- abortion and pro gun they are considered conservative... the democrats are alleged to stand for big government, taxes, pro-choice and in favor of gun regulation. They are considered Libral... then there are various smaller parties who have very few members in any government position so I wont bore you with the details.

something just as short will do, i am just trying to get a handle on what the political atmosphere is in UK...

Granny
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happygolucky



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Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

granny_skot wrote:
can you tell me a bit about british parties


Three main ones are -

Labour - Traditionally socialist, left wing of democrats but these days now more centre. Used to be strong trade union supporters. Government since 1997.

Conservative (Tory) - Right wing/centre - always been business focused. In government from 1979-1997. Tend to stand for less government intervention in peoples lives.

Liberal Democrats - more left than right wing. Haven't held power since about 1912.
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granny_skot



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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahhh I was having a discussion with someone the other day that said that european immegrants to this country tend to vote republican, not because they are conservative, but they think the term democrat means socialist... I think I can see why now.

I can also see why they call it the labour party if it is or once was alligned with Unions.

thank you for the update. I had read today that Blair is attempting to bring the focus back to labour related issues to try to bring his party back into more favourable regard...oh darn, see what happens, start talking about Brittain and I start writing more English! Laughing how funny!

I would like to hear more about why people think August 19th is a particularly bad day for Bush et al...

Granny Smile
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Sue



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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

granny_skot wrote:

I would like to hear more about why people think August 19th is a particularly bad day for Bush et al


I don't remember this. I may have heard it but have just forgotten. Do you have further information?
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granny_skot



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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 3:15 pm    Post subject: Sue... Reply with quote

August 19th???

I am still looking for the reference. for some reason I thought it was under this thread, so will have to look further. I believe someone was discussing an article in the Mountain astrologer??? which I dont have, so I can't read to verify. I will attempt to find the thread...

Granny... Confused
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granny_skot



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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 3:21 pm    Post subject: Found it! Reply with quote

in a discussion on Lunar returns, the saturn return came up a bit and Whitesage had this to say....

"That is interesting about thr presidential race. Have you read the grand cross configuration of Bush, Rice, Chaney and the rest on the MountainAstrologer. It sums up pretty much what is going on.

Seems like the date August 19, has a lot of significance. Have read by more than one astrologer, Turbulent times for US government. "

granny Smile
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GarryP
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Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2004 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In today's Guardian there's a feature about a new book, Imperial Hubris: Why the West is Losing the War on Terror, written by a "senior US intelligence official" who is remaining anonymous. The feature says, "Anonymous does not try to veil his contempt for the Bush White House and its policies..."

Maybe this (and other attacks from former officials) is the 12th house, 'hidden enemies' part of Bush's Saturn transit.
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