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Blair, Bush and the return of Saturn
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Sue



Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 945
Location: Australia

Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2004 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

granny_skot wrote:

I would like to hear more about why people think August 19th is a particularly bad day for Bush et al... Granny Smile


I just came across the following website that predicts George W Bush's death on August 19th 2004. Interesting. Have a look.

http://astroinfo.ro/eng/articles/gwb.php
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Tom
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3435
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2004 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Sue,

I know you only recommended we look at this site and did not endorse it, so these remarks aren't meant for you. I went to that site. I don't like to comment on these things too often, but this one is so bad that I feel obligated. First off the prediction depends almost entirely on outer planet rulerships and outer planet transits. Since Uranus and Pluto move so slowly and Pluto is Rx almost one-third of any year, people born even years apart can have the same transits and they aren't all going to die this August. I just had Uranus conjunct my DSC, Mercury and Sun (ASC ruler). During that time it opposed Mars. As of this writing I am still breathing reasonably well. Uranus also, during its trip through Aquarius, opposed my natal ASC, Saturn, and Pluto. GW Bush is about 18 months older than me. By this logic I should be dead soon as well. If I do die, I assure you these transits had nothing to do with it.

The astrologer notes that transiting Pluto will oppose W's natal Uranus. Everyone on earth born between roughly1945 and about 1948-9 has recently experienced or will experience this transit over the next year or so. I doubt we will see hundreds of millions of people in their 50s dying prematurely over this period.

The astrologer notes that the transiting Sun opposs his natal 8th cusp. A) This transit ocurs once per year. B) The opposition depends on the house system used.

Of the progressions noted by the astrologer only the Progressed Sun to Mars is worthy of note, but The Sun rules his ASC and Mars his MC. This could just as easily indicate re-election. Progressed MC to Uranus could mean anything from election defeat to a shift in priorites or something unexpected in other ways, assuming Uranus is capable of what its supporters claim. I find many of those claims dubious.

The Solar Return ASC = natal ASC = the year of death. I've never seen this written anywhere by any authority. It does indicate a significant year, and this is an election year, ergo it is significant for the President. SR Sun conjuncts SR Saturn; again, everyone born on or about July 6 of any year will have this in their SR chart.

SR Mars on the ASC? I have natal Mars on the ASC. It was Rx at birth and turned direct several years ago. To date it hit Saturn and Pluto TWICE by Progression and yet I live on. I could go on. Yes, there are indications that this will be a significant year for GW Bush, and yes he could die, he could even die on Aug 19, but this prediction would just be wildly lucky. I would think if we're going to predict death we need some ASC, ASC ruler, 8th house and 8th house ruler contacts, and even that isn't enough.

Tecumseh's curse. This fable is the alleged Indian curse made by the Indian Chief of the same name that an American President would die every twenty years for some offense or other. Why every 20 years? OK let's look at the facts. It is true that every President elected in a year ending in a zero from 1840 to 1960 died in office. Is this caused by the curse?

Well if it is, it neglected one death in 1850 of Zachary Taylor. Old Rough 'n Ready died during his second year in office.

In 1840 William Henry Harrison died about a month after his inauguration starting the "curse." Lincoln was elected in 1860; re-elected in 1864 (without benefit of the participation of the Southern States) and he was assasinated in April 1865. Garfield and McKinley, elected in 1880 and 1900, respectively were assasinated. Warren G. Harding elected in 1920 died of food poisoning, and some say he was murdered by his wife and physician. There is no evidence to support this contention. 1940 was the third election of Franklin Roosevelt. He was originally elected in 1932 and he died in 1945 during his fourth term (Prior to Roosevelt, American Presidents voluntarily followed Washington's precedent and only erved two terms. Roosevelt was the first and only US President to ignore precedent. After his death the Consittuion was ammended and no individual can serve more than two terms). JFK was assasinated during his third year in office. Ronald Reagan was nearly assasinated shortly after his inauguration.

Yes there is some significance to this 20 year cycle, but Tecumseh's legendary curse is more than likely used to explain why Presidents elected in 1800 and 1820 didn't die in office. If there is an astrological reason, I would look to the Great conjunction.

Now the reference to Reagan's inauguration at 12:18 AM: sorry that's not legal. The President is sworn into office every four years on January 20 at about noon. This is required by the US Consititution. Trust me, Jimmy Carter didn't tell Ron "Sure Ron, I'll leave office 12 hours before it is legal to do so." Even if he did, it didn't matter. It's not legal! The astrologer may have meant 12:18 PM, but Constituional authorities claim the time, nto the swearing in is when the change takes place. Some argued that LBJ did't have to be sworn in after Kennedy died. The death of the President made Johnson's ascndency a fiat accompli.

I recently read that Reagan rigged his inauguration to occur at 11:59:45 am. Yes that 15 seconds certainly is signficant, now isn't it? I find this type of specious reasoning to particularly offensive if the astrologer is an American. I do not expect those living outside the US to have detailed knowledge of the arcane tidbits of American government. But American students are taught this stuff at a very early age.

Recently I saw an astrological prediction based partly on the astrologer's belief that "International Law" supercedes the US Constitution. No, it doesn't. This is a flat out falsehood. I'll be kind and say the astrologer misunderstood the Constitution (as opposed to my sincere belief that the astrologer is simply ignorant) where it says The Constitution, its ammendments, and legitimate treaties entered into by the US Government are the Supreme law of the land. Treaties that violate the US Consitution are not legitmate. Some people may not like this, but it is basic American law. It is things like this that keep me from engaging in mundane astrology topics. Astrology doesn't operate in a vacuum. But we seem to be living in a world where opinion and belief trump logic, reason, and in these cases even the law itself. Back to school for the astrologer who wrote this piece.

I will not be surprised if GW Bush survives Aug 19 or even a second term. He may well die in office. As my father used to say, "No one has a contract with God." But if we are going to make predictions like this, they ought to be based on sound astrological reasoning, and that precludes the over empahsis on the outer planets. For a group that thinks traditionalists are all gloom and doom, the moderns certainly hobgoblinize the three outers plus every piece of space dust they use.

Tom
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Sue



Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 945
Location: Australia

Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2004 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tom,

Actually, this was directed specifically at Granny who had been asking why people had said August 19th was so important for G.W. I hadn't heard it before so was surprised to come across this by accident. I didn't believe a word of it myself and agree with everything you say. The reason I thought it was interesting was because he was making such a bold statement without strong astrology to back it up. In fact, I'm completely with you in that his reasoning is meaningless. He seems very convinced of his prediction. George Bush may well die on August 19th but then so might I. I wonder if the link will still be there on August 20th.

Quote:
By this logic I should be dead soon as well.


Can I have your books? Smile
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Tom
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3435
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2004 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Sue,

Quote:
The reason I thought it was interesting was because he was making such a bold statement without strong astrology to back it up.


What is particularly galling is that there are currently many stressful goings on in the President's chart. And in fact this is a pretty stressful time for him and the nation. So why not take the opportunity to analyze these things instead of going for the spectacular prediction? I think I just answered my own question.

Quote:
By this logic I should be dead soon as well.

Can I have your books?



Ahhh Sue, I've missed you lately. No you may not have them. I will leave you my bills instead. I have at least as many of those as I do books, and they are worth more. Wink

Tom
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granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 1634
Location: California, USA

Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ah well I've been on vacation so I got the full benefit of all these replies before wondering off into the world of make believe. Very Happy

I agree that the presidents chart and the US chart are both full of termoil right now and it would be interesting to discuss the Ingress charts, or the natal & transits. I was a tad surprised at reading the ingress article on the home page. If I recall correctly, it first stated that the ingress chart should be used for only the following three months and then goes on to say the spring ingress shows bush being re-elected in the fall... um, doesn't that go against the previous statement? wouldn't you look at the fall ingress to consider that discussion? I believe I'm recalling that article correctly, but feel free to let me know if I'm not. On a more pleasant note, I just got back from a short holiday and am feeling quite feisty and up to lots of intelligent chatter, so please, lets all think out loud!

Granny Very Happy
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Tom
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3435
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2004 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I was a tad surprised at reading the ingress article on the home page. If I recall correctly, it first stated that the ingress chart should be used for only the following three months and then goes on to say the spring ingress shows bush being re-elected in the fall... um, doesn't that go against the previous statement?


The Aries Ingress, I think, can be taken for the whole year. The others for three month periods. I know one astrologer who uses the winter solstice as the beginning of the year. From memory the Aries ingress had a Moon MC ruler mutual reception by exaltation. Exaltation is what you look for in the election of a President or elevation to any high office. You need a lot more than this for a prediction however. Rob Hand claims that in order to be elected President the candidates chart has to have strong connections with the US chart. Hmmm which one? I think he uses Sagittarius rising. I would also look to the last great conjunction.

Tom
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