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Skyscript Astrology Forum

The Warning of Death given to Henry II of France
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Deb
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Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Steven

Thanks very much for your feedback – it is great to get responses when you publish something of personal interest Smile

I agree with you. I wrote about this and presented on it a few times about five years ago, but after Kolev published his booklet I felt a bit embarrassed for having taken the chart so seriously, as if the whole thing had been proven to be a fake. I’m sure you realise that I’ve revived the story because I think the legs were kicked from under it prematurely, and because I get tired of the view that astrologers couldn’t have made the predictions they are reported to have made unless some sort of 'cheating' took place.

This is an especially good time to publish the article as we are in an ideal position to consider how such a dramatic and high profile death generates massive interest in rectification – simply compare with the MJ situation.

What I don’t want to claim (too strongly) is that I have ‘nailed the chart’, because I am very open to the view that either chart could have been reliably used -- actually, a little more open-minded than I might appear to be in the article, because I have since thought about the feedback it has generated. Meira Epstein, for example, contacted me to say that she thought the square to the Sun was enough to generate the prediction of blindness. Maybe,... or at least it probably ought to have got more attention than I gave it in the article. And I think other astrologers will have very valid opinions too. What’s important is that we don’t just ‘close the book’ on this, because there are some very powerful and very exciting astrological contacts, in this very interesting story that every astrologer ought to know something about! It shouldn’t just be about that one primary direction; however …

Originally I wrote the article as an introduction to the subject of primary directions – it is the first part of a tutorial that goes on to show how that particular ascendant>Mars direction is calculated, with step by step diagrams to show how it can be calculated with a calculator. I hope to include that tutorial later. (I have a background plan of ‘upping’ the promotion of primary directions, which has been carefully designed to maximise the focus brought about by Martin’s new book.) That explains why there is such a strong focus on the one contact in the article although I have tried to balance that with some of the more interesting background astrological events in the latest version that I have published online.

The most exciting thing for me was to remove a lot of the vagueness concerning the date of the accident and death, and to get reliable reports of the times involved. The transit connections are quite staggering when we look at the birth chart, accident chart and death chart together, and the fact that he died following an eclipse that opposed his luminaries also seems to be very understated. It may well have been that the transiting Mars-Saturn opposition (which repeated the Mars-Saturn natal opposition theme) combined with the opposing eclipse, was reason enough for the warning to have been made concerning the death of the king. (It certainly wasn’t lost on me that I was working on an article about the death of a king during the total eclipse, which occurred on the threshold of Leo, and on the square of Henry’s natal Moon).

I am sure other astrologers will find other relevant contacts because the theme connected to the seriousness of the accident and the subsequent death is really very strong and reinforced on many levels. I personally still find this fascinating because there is still so much more that could be added to it – oh, if only we had unlimited time to be looking into other people’s lives, instead of getting on with our own Smile
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margherita



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Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Deborah,

I should obviously say I found your article very beautiful, so I printed before going out of home, because I could not wait to come back at home and read it.

Just some notes. Luca Gaurico was not from Venice, he came from the south of Italy and this was one of the reason of his quarrel with Girolamo Cardano, his worst rival.

Cardano was from the Northern Italy and he always liked to have contacts with the rest of just Reformed Europe, while Gaurico was a Catholic bishop, who spent part of his life in Rome, at the court of the Pope.

Whatever Kolev says, Gaurico was one of the greatest astrologers of his time, greater than Cardano maybe.

He lived in the Pope court for the only reason that when Alessandro Farnese was already old and without any possibility to become a Pope - he tried many times- Gaurico told him he would be elected.

When Alessandro became Pope (with the name of Paul III) he invited Gaurico in Rome as his astrologer..

When Melanchthon desired rectifying the birthchart of Luther, Gaurico - a Catholic bishop- was invited in Wittenberg and welcomed with special honours, not Cardano.

So hardly Gaurico needed to forge a birth chart...

I don't know which is the text of the letter Gaurico sent to Caterina, does he mention directions?

I agree with Meira Epstein because Gaurico follows Ptolemy, and according Ptolemy when Lights are in the first or in the seventh house or in the sixth one and they are afflicted by the malefics, especially when they are predominant (like Saturn here) they give many problems especially to the eyes.

During my lessons I saw several cases, in CieloeTerra they are especially found of eyes sickness Smile

The same Gaurico in his Trattato d'Astrologia (I took from DIAL) repeats Ptolemy words:

"When the Ascendant, the seventh house and their ruler are infortuned by Saturn or Mars by opposition or square or by their presence, the native will have many diseases, especially if the Lights are infortuned in an angle. "

"When the Moon will be infortuned in angle together with the Sun or in opposition or in a square with it, the native will be lose an eye. "

".... ad if they were infortuned by Mars, the native will lose an eye by sword."

As you see, Gaurico is just repeating Ptolemy words.

Moreover Sun and Moon are together in Aries, "in via lactea, which damages eyes", Argoli will add.

Jean Stade in 1560 gives us another version Smile

"Mars with Canis Maior, anareta, or with the right shoulder of Orion, when they are at the Ascendant afflict public happiness, or they cause injuries in tournament or kill with the rod in same way. Henry II Christian King of Frenchmen and other ones are the example we have, as the example of his misfortunes are given in the Astrological Commentary"

I have the idea Renaissance astrologers did not use stars as we do, maybe I'm wrong...

Thanks again for your wonderful article,
margherita
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Deb
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Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Margherita

Thanks for the useful feedback. I’ve corrected the reference to Gauricus being a ‘Venetian scholar’ to the simpler and more reliable reference to him being Italian.

Just to clarify, Rumen Kolev wasn’t suggesting that Gauricus forged the birth chart after the death, because he is also aware that Gauricus died before Henry.

I forgot all about the connection between afflictions in the Via Lactea (Milky Way) and the historical references to this chart. You are right, it is very significant. I mentioned it in an old forum thread which I’ll cross-link to here so I can come back and check this when I have more time. It is quite an old thread and I’ve collected a few other references to Via Lactea since then. Richard Saunders, in his Astrological Judgement and Practice of Physic also mentions its malignant influence and positions it between 20th Gemini to 1st of Cancer and in the south from 6th – 16th Sag and 24th Sag to 5th Cap.

Via Lactea: http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=379

PS - For all his personal flaws, I have a particular fondness for Cardano as well as a great respect - how could we possibly choose a favourite between them Smile
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margherita



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Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Deborah

Deb wrote:


PS - For all his personal flaws, I have a particular fondness for Cardano as well as a great respect - how could we possibly choose a favourite between them Smile


I have consumed Italian translation of Cardano comment to the second book of Tetrabiblos and I could never live without Smile

The only thing I don't like about Cardano is he completely dismissed Arab astrology, Gaurico on the other hand always took it in the due consideration.

But as every Italian I'm involved in North/South competition, and Cardano came from the North near Milan, Gaurico loved Rome, this is decisive to me Smile

About sickness of eyes, it's just because I saw so many examples with damaged Lights together with azemena degrees and nebula, this is one of the favourite subjects in CieloeTerra, I don't know why

margherita
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Deb
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Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I seem to be having problems with the nationalities of astrologers. Not only is it incorrect to call Lucas Gauricus a Venetian scholar (and I'll certainly never make that mistake again!), but it is also incorrect to call the Russian astrologer Rumen Kolev a Russian astrologer, because he’s not, he’s Bulgarian! He lives in a very nice Bulgarian city on the Black Sea. I don’t know what I am thinking lately!

It was very good of Rumen to get in touch and point that out whilst being complimentary about the article, especially since he’s become an integral element of my account of it.

Anyway, I corrected that point and reposted the article (again!).

Henry II - he was the French king. I'm pretty sure about that.
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sasha_i



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Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
PS - For all his personal flaws, I have a particular fondness for Cardano as well as a great respect - how could we possibly choose a favourite between them Smile



Hello to all

Although I consider Cardanus a great astrologer I cannot close my eyes when I see the limits. That’s why I think it won’t diminish his importance if I bring in discussion a small error.
In his commentary to Ptolemy, book 3, chapter 5 (In his book), about brothers and sisters, he seems to present the classical mistake about Mc being a significator of brothers and sisters i.e. the children of native’s mother.

As correctly translated by Giuseppe Bezza, Ptolemy refers to the culminating sign from the places of mother. This translation and interpretation is certified also by the Anonymous commentator to Ptolemy, who recommends us to calculate the MC from the places of Venus or Moon (Venus in a day chart, Moon in a nocturnal chart).

This passage from Ptolemy (chapter 6 from the book 3) is interesting also for the fact that here it seems that Ptolemy mentions a whole sign house system ( he mentions the culminating sign from the place of mother), even if we are talking here only about a derived house system


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mattG



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Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read and enjoyed the article in the magazine a while back. What made me smile was that he chose to ignore the advice and duly got what he had coming in the right year. Had he taken the advice and survived it would have made it difficult for scholars of astrology to check the rectification.At least he made his place in the hall of fame and got his wish. Smile

Matt
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margherita



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Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Sasha,

sasha_i wrote:

This passage from Ptolemy (chapter 6 from the book 3) is interesting also for the fact that here it seems that Ptolemy mentions a whole sign house system ( he mentions the culminating sign from the place of mother), even if we are talking here only about a derived house system


I'm going to read that chapter. I missed it.
Still I'm not sure Bezza thinks Ptolemy uses whole signs houses, at least never heard something like that from whoever in CieloeTerra.

margherita
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sasha_i



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Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Margherita,

No, it's a misunderstanding here. The reference to Bezza was only for the translation of the fragment. In Bezza's translation (and I guess interpretation) is clear that Ptolemy tells us to look at the "culminating sign from the places of mother" and not Mc of nativitiy.

"...il segno culminante rispetto al luogo materno..." page 60 from the electronic edition

The affirmation that this passage could be an argument for the use of a whole sign house system is mine. Actually, if you look at my post, it can be seen that I mentioned my considerations in another paragraph.


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sasha_i



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Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steven, Deborah, please excuse me for diverting from the subject of the thread.
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Deb
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Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not a problem at all - discussion goes where it will.

Cardano might not have agreed that was as a mistake of course. He might have disagreed with your opinion. In fact, I think he would very definitely have disagreed with anyone who suggested he made some small mistake - he seemed a bit like that from what I've read. I imagine he would have made a very obstroculous correspondent in this forum Smile
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margherita



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Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb wrote:
Not a problem at all - discussion goes where it will.

Cardano might not have agreed that was as a mistake of course. He might have disagreed with your opinion. In fact, I think he would very definitely have disagreed with anyone who suggested he made some small mistake - he seemed a bit like that from what I've read. I imagine he would have made a very obstroculous correspondent in this forum Smile



What does it mean "obstroulous" ?!?

Cardano had a really bad temperament and he is very arrogant in the way he writes, but he was a great astrologer, what a pity he was from North Wink

p.s. and no problem, Sasha. Just Placido was starting move in his grave Smile

margherita
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sasha_i



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Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here it is what I found on internet:
obstroculous - someone who is difficult

Someone who is awkward for the sake of being awkward
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Deb
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Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't realise the word wasn't well known. Perhaps because it was often said about me when I was younger Smile
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Deb
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Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

obstreperous is a new one on me!

Quote:
How could anyone call you that?

Defeats me ... Maybe because my favourite pastime is arguing...

One of the things I can't help liking about Cardan is that you really get a sense of his personality in his writing. It is true that it doesn't seem to be a very nice personality, but he is so arrogant and full of himself, that he describes his faults in great detail. At the end, it seems to me that his emotional frustration powered his need to be intellectually brilliant, but it never brought him satisfaction. The story of his attempt to stop his son's execution is tragic. He had no friends to help him because he'd made enemies of all the people who could have helped and they were pleased to see him brought low. For that fact alone I would be willing to understand the enormous chip he had on his shoulder and make all his enemies my enemies too. ... But if only he wasn't from the North ! Smile
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