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Skyscript Astrology Forum

The Warning of Death given to Henry II of France
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Tom
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Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't had my vocabulary increased in a long time. I can't wait to use the word.

For those who might not know, and I hope I haven't mentioned this recently, there is a very good biography of Jerome Caradan titled Cardano's Cosmos written by Anthony Grafton, Princeton University Press. Cardan was difficult, but he had a difficult life. He was illegitimate and that stigma hurt his chances at the University and finding employment. His son, a physician, was executed for murdering his wife. Life was not easy for him. He was also brilliant. For those of you how know some mechanics, you may have heard of the "universal joint," two rods joined together at a joint that permits a rod to "bend" in any direction. It is used in mechanics today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_joint

Cardan invented it. He also invented a form of algebra. We're not talking ordinary man here.

Unfortunately, very little of his astrology has been translated into English.

He is well worth knowing though.

Tom
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Deb
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Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Both Cardan and Morin seemed to delight in explaining how their 12th house Sun's perfectly described their odious ways. I have always thought that there are a lot of similarities between them. But Morin had privileges whereas Cardan did have many tables turned against him from the start because he was illegitimate. I know less about Morin’s life, but I’m sure Tom will correct me if I'm wrong.

Historical characters do generally dwell upon their faults and flaws, and maybe we don't understand how this was actually an attempt to be humble or self-penitent. Kepler does it too, in some of his letters, but from everything I can see Kepler was a thoroughly decent man, driven by his conscience. Though I do get the sense that he could be obstroculous too. Maybe all astrologers are. We all like to think of ourselves as free-thinkers today, but it wasn't so easy to be a free-thinker in the past when society's limits were more rigid.
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Tom
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Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Although it is obvious I really enjoy Morin, I think he was more than a little unfair with Cardan. Criticism is OK. If you publish anything, you have to expect some criticism. But if we read Holden's translations carefully and read his notes (I am footnote obsessed. I read them all), you'll see at times Morin either misread or misstated some of the people he criticized. There are differences in the way the two men approached astrology. Cardan tried to develop Ptolemy; Morin tried to bury him.

I note in the rectification thread Steven mentioned Dr. Dykes observation about the apparent contemporary need to control astrology. The observation is valid; it just isn't a new phenomenon.

The way I understand Morin's astrology is that he was searching for precision. Morin is also the first major astrologer in my mind that criticized Ptolemy in a meaningful way. Ptolemy is not God. Cardan was the best known astrologer of Morin's day, although he died 7 years before Morin was born. He was a natural target. It is also noteworthy that Morin attacks some of Cardan's philosophy and ideas. He never says, to my knowledge, that Cardan was an inferior astrologer. His only fault was not agreeing with Morin.

From what I can gather of their respective personalities, Cardan was difficult and grumpy - maybe an angry man. Morin was pompous, full of himself, and very French. Nasty personal attacks are not limited to Morin. If we read Grafton's biography, we'll see that Cardan and Guarico were equally adept at exchanging insults. There is very little new under the Sun.

Tom
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Tom
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Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Morin did have a somewhat easier life, but he had money problems. One of the side benefits of studying these people is the realization of how lucky I am to be born at a time and place where my life is determined by my efforts and abilities, not by the conditions of my birth. Sure there are limits, but there are always limits. Cardan succeeded in a society that wanted nothing to do with him. If I went through my whole life having to endure nothing but people who wanted nothing to do with me, it would most likely be my fault.

Morin was university educated and had some social status. He was an advisor to Richelieu, a precarious position if there ever was one, but I think he had money problems from time to time. He did not suffer the social ostracism Cardan did, or if he did, it was not for the same reasons.

One story told by I think, Thorndike is worthy of note. While a child one of Morin's siblings asked him if one of his parents had to die, which would he prefer? This is the sort of thing kids do today. Morin, quite young, said he would prefer it if his mother died, and of course the sibling ran to his mother and told her. None of us would like hearing this, but we would probably chalk it off to a youngster who didn't know any better than to keep those things to himself. Morin's mother cut him out of the will.

Morin did blame his 12th house for everything that happened to him, but credited Jupiter in the 12th for not killing him off. Typical astrologer. Everything is the chart's fault.

Tom
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margherita



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Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Deborah, Sasha, Tom, Steven and thanks for your explication.

margherita
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Tom
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Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

After making more than my usual share of mistakes and getting my JC and GC mixed up, I finally manged to do a solar return for 1559 based on a 3 Gemini 00 natal ASC.

The natal ASC DSC axis is reversed. Mars (lances) is on the Sagittarius (horses) ASC. The Moon ruler of the natal second is in the SR second in detriment opposing the SR 8th (Regiomontanus) which she rules. She is trine Saturn in Taurus in the 5th (sport) on Algol. Saturn rules the natal 8th. The Sun, co ruler of the SR 8th and ruler of the natal 4th of endings is at the bottom of the chart.

Interesting.

Tom
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Tom
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Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Expanded version of the above. I posted this at the solar returns group earlier and verbatim.

Deb Houlding recently republished an article she wrote concerning the prediction allegedly made by Luca Gaurico concerning the death of Henry II of France. The article is here: http://www.skyscript.co.uk/pdf/henry_II.pdf

I suggest it be read for all the necessary background material. For those who don’t know anything about the incident, Gaurico is said to have sent Henry a letter warning him not to joust, a favorite sport of his, in his 41st year due to the danger of head injury, blindness, possibly leading to death. In June of 1559 the King seeing two lances remaining decided to have a joust with a knight. When the two horsemen met, the lances splintered (common) and two large splinters flew through the king’s visor one piercing his jaw and going into his head the other piercing his eye. The king died an agonizing death 11 days later. Note: we cannot accuse Gaurico of rectifying the chart ex post facto as he died the year before the events transpired.

The question Deb’s article raises is this: since it is well established that the chart said to be used by Garico is known to be rectified, was it rectified after the fact, in order to make the predictions seem true, or was it rectified prior to the events as was the common practice of the day? Read the article for that interesting story.

Gadbury published what was said to be the rectified chart but he left the minutes off the angles and used whole numbers only. The data I used is as follows:

Henry II of France
April 10, 1519 NS (Gregorian Calendar)
7:11:04 LMT
St Germain en Laye, France
48 N 54
002 E 05
3Gemini 00 rises

Now Deb gives 9:04 LMT but when I do that I get Cancer rising so the above is my adjustment designed to get 3 Gemini on the ASC like Gadbury had. Therefore this could be off by about 4 minutes of clock time. That doesn’t affect what follows.

The rectified chart permits the direction of ASC to Mars at age 40 (41st year). Mars of course is sharp objects as well as violence and Mars is sitting on the fixed star Castor (If rising: Blindness bad eyes, injuries to the faces, stabs, wounds, imprisonment.” – Robson

Is this enough to make such a prediction? I doubt it, but if he did in fact make such an observation, he didn’t actually predict the king would die that year. He told him there were dangers to his life and he could avoid them if he avoided jousting. This is what prompted me to look at the returns using Morin’s methods.

1) Does the chart “promise” a violent death? One could argue, a tad lamely, that the direction is part of the promise and therefore the chart in fact does show potential for violent death. OK, but is there anything else? Aldebaran rises “… danger of violence and sickness.” Mars opposes Saturn by sign and Saturn rules by domicile and Mars rules by exaltation the 8th house of death. Mars is also square the Sun (life force) whom he rules. There are at least indications of a violent death, and let’s recall Gaurico supposedly didn’t say he would die that way, only that the danger was present this year, i.e. within the accepted range of a primary direction.

Moderns will note there is a very wide cardinal grand cross in this chart, a rare formation. Sun opposes Jupiter both are square Mars and Mars widely, very widely opposes Saturn and opposes Pluto. Others may wish to work with that.

Let’s go to the solar return. I have no idea where he spent his birthday in 1559. So I used Paris as this is where he died and the most likely place. The difference between Paris and the birth location is a couple of minutes of arc. It changes virtually nothing.

Henry II 1559 SR
March 30 1559 OS (Solar Fire will not calculate returns in this era NS even when they start that way. Ditto lunar returns. Look at the position of the sun and moon to make sure you’ve got it right.

11:34 16 PM LMT
Paris France
48 N 52
002 E 20
13 Sagittarius 55 rises

Right off the bat we know something is up. The ASC-DSC axis is the reverse by sign from the natal. And Mars is on the ASC. The malefic south node is on the MC. The Moon, ruler of the SR 8th is in her detriment opposing the 8th cusp. But most interesting of all is Saturn. Saturn rules the natal 8th house and trine and in a mixed mutual reception with the Moon. Saturn is in Taurus and the Moon is in Capricorn. They are working together. But most ghastly of all is Saturn on the malefic fixed star Algol, associated with injuries to the head.

In addition a Mars-Sun aspect repeats this time in trine. The Sun is co-ruler of the SR 8th and Mars rules the 4th of endings. The trines are not exactly what we would expect but as John Frawley once said to me, “A trine can kill you.”

Not good. Let’s look at the lunar return in effect at the time of the King’s death.

Henry II Lunar return June 1559
June 29 1559 OS (see caveat above)
2:19:09 AM LMT
Paris France
48 N 52
002 E 20
21 Gemini rises

All the angles repeat the angles in the nativity by sign. Saturn Lord 8 in the nativity and LR is in the 12 conjunct the natal ASC opposing Mars more tightly than it did in the nativity. Mars is in the 6th house of injury. The Sun, the life force, opposite the 8th house, and is conjunct natal Mars on Pollux (Sun on Pollux: blows stabs and serious accidents – Robson). Mercury Lord 5 (sport) in the LR and Lord ASC in this and the nativity is combust. Mars is on the violent fixed star Antares (“ … destructive to themselves by their own obstinacy.” – Robson. The King was begged by his wife and his friends not to joust that day.

This may not make the case for the legitimacy of the rectification and prediction, but it doesn’t detract from it.

Tom




Last edited by Tom on Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Olivia



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Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's a very nice delineation, Tom.

But a question of history here: Wasn't the letter sent well before the King's death? I believe Gaurico pre-deceased Henry, so there's little chance he rectified the chart to make it look good after the fact.

Or am I mistaken here?
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margherita



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Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Someone has the text of Gaurico letter?
Where it could be found?

margherita
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Deb
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Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I know of this is detailed in my article. The report of the letter was made by a contemporary historian. I don't know that the letter still exists (the king's friend told him to throw it on the fire). And the suggestion that the chart was rectified after the death is based on later publications of the chart differing from one that Gauricus published several years before the letter was supposed to have been written. However, we know that Gauricus was doing ongoing rectification, so he may have recified it himself (between the earlier publication and his own death), or some other astrologer might have done it after Henry's death. We don't know.

Thanks for the report of the Solar Return Tom. By the way, have you read the book "Transits and Solar Returns: A New System of Analysis for Two Ancient Methods"
by Ciro Discepolo. I have only just heard about it but it looks good. I'm thinking of getting it.

Deb
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margherita



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Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb wrote:
What I know of this is detailed in my article. The report of the letter was made by a contemporary historian. I don't know that the letter still exists (the king's friend told him to throw it on the fire).


Thanks for your kind reply. Obviously I read the article and I liked very much, as Italian readers liked your interview made by Garry Phillipson.
It was published as opening article, I hope you had your copy too, but I believe yes, Dante Valente is from Milan, he is very precise.

About the letter, for what I understand surfing the net some references were included in a prognostication for the Duke of Ferrara in 1552. It is mentioned by his biographer Percopo at the end of 1800. So Percopo read something, if you say the letter to Caterina was destroyed, it should be another advise.

I believed someone had read exactly the text, or maybe Kolev quoted it, I could not understand, but now I understand nobody did, so the content is not clear.

Quote:
"Transits and Solar Returns: A New System of Analysis for Two Ancient Methods" by Ciro Discepolo. I have only just heard about it but it looks good. I'm thinking of getting it.


I'm not sure it's traditional. Ciro Discepolo is very famous for relocated solar returns in Italy, especially because he sends people in the most strange and impossible to reach places in the world.

Still he has several followers. This is his blog.

http://cirodiscepolo.blogspot.com/

and a chapter of his book

http://www.solarreturns.com/#SolarReturns-thepreface

Enjoy it Smile

margherita
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Deb
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Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Margherita. It looks like you might not have received an email I sent to you a couple of weeks ago, so I'll find it out and send it to you via Private Messaging in this forum.

All the best to you
Deb
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Tom
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Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Deb,

No I have not heard of that book, but solar returns have grabbed hold of me, so I'll definitely look into it. Thanks for the tip.

Tom
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###



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Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Thanks for the report of the Solar Return Tom. By the way, have you read the book "Transits and Solar Returns: A New System of Analysis for Two Ancient Methods" by Ciro Discepolo. I have only just heard about it but it looks good. I'm thinking of getting it.


I bought a used copy that was in almost untouched condition and have already sold it. I usually keep astrology books once I've decided to buy them. Not that one. It's loaded with a 'I found the correct way' attitude, which tends to clash with my correct way. One gets the impression that he is to be considered absolutely brilliant in sending people off to the right spot for their solar returns. It was printed on beautiful paper and did smell good, if I remember correctly.
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margherita



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Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've just opened my list of private messages and I saw that many wrote me, but this is the very first I see them.

So I'm sorry I did not reply to any. Since now I will check them, I swear.

margherita
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