skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Can assassinations be prevented? by Elsbeth Ebertin
translated by Jenn Zahrt PhD
A Guide to Interpreting The Great American Eclipse
by Wade Caves
The Astrology of Depression
by Judith Hill
Understanding the mean conjunctions of the Jupiter-Saturn cycle
by Benjamin Dykes
Understanding the zodiac: and why there really ARE 12 signs of the zodiac, not 13
by Deborah Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

Prediction Hierarchy

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Traditional (& Ancient) Techniques
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
pjef



Joined: 18 Mar 2009
Posts: 25

Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 8:14 pm    Post subject: Prediction Hierarchy Reply with quote

I am somewhat confused as to the Predictive Hierarchy in Hellenistic Astrology.

I have been re-listening to Project Hindsight's 2006 Conclave and the 2007 Zodiacal Releasing CDs. I know that Demetra George (great segment, Demetra! Explained very clearly!) says that the Predominator's Circumambulations are at the "top" of this hierarchy; then I believe it's the Solar Return/Profections, then Zodiacal Releasing??? Is this correct?

And... where do decennials, quarters of the moon, etc. fit in???
Thanks for any help.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4924
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I am somewhat confused as to the Predictive Hierarchy in Hellenistic Astrology. I have been re-listening to Project Hindsight's 2006 Conclave and the 2007 Zodiacal Releasing CDs. I know that Demetra George (great segment, Demetra! Explained very clearly!) says that the Predominator's Circumambulations are at the "top" of this hierarchy; then I believe it's the Solar Return/Profections, then Zodiacal Releasing??? Is this correct? And... where do decennials, quarters of the moon, etc. fit in??? Thanks for any help.


Hello pjef,

Welcome to skyscript. Smile

As you seem to be seeking the answer to quite a complex issue raised at the Project Hindsight Conclaves you might find it helpful to post this kind of question on the Hellenistic part of the ACT Astrology forum. Robert Schmidt is currently the moderator and there are several well informed forum members who could probably help you out on this question.

http://actastrology.com/viewforum.php?f=4&sid=051f23a38e701930d7a1c7c75d7fdec8

Good luck!

Mark
_________________
‘’As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity…’’ William Lilly
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
pjef



Joined: 18 Mar 2009
Posts: 25

Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 11:45 pm    Post subject: ACT Reply with quote

Hi Mark,

Thanks, I have been on that site for awhile, but I've been having
trouble logging in so I can post on it. I emailed Michael Erlewine yesterday
and am just waiting for a reply.
Because of that, I took a chance of posting here in the meantime, since
we have so many very capable astrologers at this forum.

Patti
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 459

Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,

I suppose when Demetra George or any Hellenistic astrologers (or even any astrologer for that matter) talks about hierarchy in prediction, they are assuming that the many methods used in predictive work (whatever methods sanctioned by the astrologer) are valid for one native. For example, if the astrologer believes that Circumambulation (or primary direction of a predominating point/planet if you're medieval astrologer), Decennials, Quarters of the Moon, Zodiacal Releasing of the Lots, Firdaria (not Hellenistic of course, most probably Persian), Profections, Solar Revolution, Transits, etc. all can be used to predict the timing of events in one person's natal chart, then the next most logical step in predictive work is to determine the hierarchy of these plethora of techniques.

The assumption that all predictive methods are valid in one chart is just that - an assumption which requires validation (which I have yet to see). There are a few positions over this:

1. All of these methods are valid and should be used. If different techniques converge on the same predictive timing - then we can say with confidence that whatever is promised in the natal chart will come about at the times predicted via the different timing techniques. In this case, hierarchy is definitely required so that correct emphasis can be given to the correct predictive method.

2. Some of the methods are actually chart dependent e.g. predictive technique A may apply to charts that exhibit a certain condition while predictive technique B applies only to charts that exhibit a different condition. In this case hierarchy is not required because the different techniques are exclusive for different types of natal charts (unless competing techniques are used for certain types of charts).

3. Methods that are topic dependent e.g. certain topics in life require different timing techniques. Again, in this case hierarchy is not a question unless there are competing techniques over the same topical concern.

Basically there are three different families of predictive techniques:

1. Periodic or planetary periodic methods which covers span of time governed by the planets e.g. Circumambulation, directing via the three triplicities, directing via terms, Firdaria, Decennials, Quarters of the Moon, Ages of Men, Zodiacal Releasings, etc. The method is about find a planet (or a number of planets) that govern certain period of life.

2. Cyclical methods (where the similar cycles are observed during a life time) e.g. Solar revolution, Profection (which can be argued to also fall within the first category), sign ingresses of the planets, house ingresses of the planets, etc.

3. Hit methods (giving list of hit dates) e.g. when certain natal planetary configurations become active e.g. eclipse hits, progressed/direction hits, transit hits, etc.


In astrological work, these techniques are used in combination (in many forms depending on the astrologer and his experience/background).

I would rather put hierarchy to the above three families of predictive work. For me, the highest hierarchy should be given to Periodical or Planetary periodic methods (no. 1 above) followed by 2 and lastly, 3 (with transits come as the last predictive method).


Caution is required for determining hierarchy within the predictive family itself because some of the techniques are chart/topic specific.

Let's say that I wish to use the Firdaria method for predictive work in determining periods of life. Do i believe that it can be used for all natal charts? No, I don't think so! The sect of the natal chart is the only consideration for determining planetary periods using Firdaria method. In fact we have 2 universal tables; one for diurnal births (sun as the starting point) and one for nocturnal births (moon as the starting point). I believe (my conjecture of course and my own experience!), that Firdaria will not give accurate timing if the native's luminaries are cadent. The planetary periodic methods using circumambulation or decennials may give a better set of planetary periods.

If the cyclical method is being used, one may want to use say profection for the determination of general life in annual predictive work. However, one may want to profect the main luminary or ascendant for general life prediction. Saying that profection of ascendant only gives the Lord of the Year for all natives may not be accurate as some natives are more ascendant based and some answer more to the luminaries (which justify profection from the luminaries for general annual prediction of life).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
pjef



Joined: 18 Mar 2009
Posts: 25

Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:01 pm    Post subject: RE: Prediction Hierarchy Reply with quote

Hello Astrojin,

Thank you for your thoughtful response.

I have been studying astrology seriously for almost 25 years, including "modern", Hellenistic, Medieval, Horary, a little sidereal, a little Hindu...
basically anything I could get my hands on.

I agree with you 100% concerning the applicability of various techniques
with individual charts. I've had a suspicion about several techniques or
even general factors varying with individual charts (also see Bernadette
Brady's wonderful "The Eagle and the Lark" for her take on prediction not
working the same with every chart).

I was just curious as to the various Time Lord and other predictive
techniques in the Hermetic toolbox, in reference to Demetra's fabulous
Circumambulations of the Predominator tutorial on the 2006 Conclave
tapes.

I am aware that transits fit in here also, but remember Mr. Schmidt as
saying that they are only effective when they are also a current Time Lord.
But again, I just wanted to clarify in my mind the Hellenistic "order" of
Time Lords and other predictive methods.

I thank you again for your thoughtful reply and will certainly keep it all
in mind as I continue....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 459

Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello again pjef,

Maybe the following can be of use to you (different astrologers will have different take on this of course - this is just my opinion so far):

Hierarchy of predictive techniques:

1. Directing by trigons/triplicites
The three (medieval) or two (modern hellenistic) divisions of the triplicities of luminary in sect or ascendant.

The medieval astrologers divide life into three parts and each triplicity/trigon lord rule each third of life. Most of the Arabs seem to prefer using luminary in sect. Bonatti seem to prefer Ascendant.

The modern Hellenistic astrologers divide life into two parts and the first and second triplicity/trigon lords ruler the first and second parts of life respectively. There is a method of determining the changeover time from the first to second triplicity/trigon rulers. The third (participating) triplicity/trigon ruler assists both the first and second triplicity/trigon lords in both periods of time.

At the moment, I prefer the Medieval approach (it seems to agree with my own experience with my clients).

2. Circumambulations
As there is a specific technique in determining the planet/point to start circumambulating with, this is also a general prediction for all charts.

The equivalent medieval method is probably what is called Directing by Terms (Solar Fire can give you the table but it only "directs" from ascendant i.e. you cannot choose the starting point of direction). This technique is described quite clearly in Omar of Tiberias' Three Books of Nativities.

The late traditional astrology (e.g. Lilly) would have directed the important points (sun/moon/asc/part of fortune) through the signs and terms using primary direction.

3. General planetary periods
The Hellenistic general methods of determining planetary periods are Decennials and Quarters of the Moon. I have not explored the other techniques myself, so I can't really say (e.g. Ptolemy's 7 ages of men, Valens' 9 year system, Balbillus method, etc.).

The equivalent medieval method is of course the Firdaria (probably Persian in origin).

I believe that these technqiues are chart specific. If the native is more solar or lunar, Firdaria/Decennial can be used, if the native is more ascendant based, Decennial can be used, if the native is more lunar based (either answering more to birth moon or prenatal lunation point), quarters of the moon should also be used.

4. Specific Planetary Periods (Zodiacal aphesis and Profections)
If the native is more Lot based (answers more to the Lots than the houses), specific planetary periods obtained from zodiacal aphesis are given more emphasis (note that we give more emphasis - this doesn't mean that we do not use Zodiacal Aphesis for natives who are not Lot based as Zodiacal aphesis is an important technique by itself).

If the native is more ascendant based, specific planetary periods obtained from profection of ascendant are given more emphasis.

If the native is more solar/lunar based, specific planetary periods obtained from profection of the luminary in sect are given more emphasis.

5. Planetary Hit methods

Hellenistic: Activation of planetary positions and aspects via the minor periods of the planets and ascensional times of the signs (in many combinations and periods). For example if you have Mars square your angular sun, the times to watch are the minor period of Mars which is 15 (age 14), minor period of Sun which is 19 ( age 18 ), summation of their minor periods which is 34 (age 33), the minor period of sun plus ascensional times of sign of Mars, etc.

Medieval: The most favourite annual method seemed to be Solar Revolution (Solar Return) for natal charts and Solar Ingress for mundane astrology. Some hellenistic/medieval astrologers use the solar return or transit together with the specific time lord technique like profections.

6. Planetary triggers
Eclipse hits
Transit hits (including ingresses)

Medieval astrologers would also look into primary pogression with transits, etc.

The modern astrologers might also include Secondary progression (and some other techniques...)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
pjef



Joined: 18 Mar 2009
Posts: 25

Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:14 pm    Post subject: Prediction Hierarchy Reply with quote

Astrojin,

Thank you for another extremely informative reply. This summary
makes a lot of sense to me; I'll be reading it over several times to
get a better grasp of your overview of this subject.

Thank you again!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Traditional (& Ancient) Techniques All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated