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Mystery chart – identifying the time of greatest danger
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Eddy



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
Posts: 922
Location: Netherlands

Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for posting the moments Deb. Again I was totally wrong. I hadn't given all my attention to it, this is not an excuse by the way, I still might have gone wrong. I already had noticed in Yuzuru's mystery rectification chart that if one wants to do it properly it becomes a very intensive and time consuming exercise.

Another point is that when one is busy working on this the chance is that you become more and more convinced of being on the right track, even when totally wrong. If I had had spent more time on it I believe I simply would have searched for more justifications of the already found (erroneous) month and year, using techniques I normally don't apply (like I did in the other thread).
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SunMachine



Joined: 18 Aug 2009
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Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb, thanks for my round of mooted applause!! Lala Happy

I don't think I deserve even that, since the answer for the time frame was implied in the hints you gave about the mirroring of transits and natal chart.

If it wasn't for that, I have no idea if I'd be able to pick anything.

Next time around then. I'm utterly impressed that people could actually see how he died, and find the actual date and hour! Good job, it makes me want to study astrology even more!
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Ju0Spica



Joined: 07 Jul 2009
Posts: 18

Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My first reaction after looking at the accident chart: Hmmm.. and yet they say Pluto is a dwarf planet?

It is not true that all violent accidents have Pluto rising, but when it happens it can be used to strengthen the empirical evidence of Pluto in action. This event is utterly Plutonian if one looks at the evidence shown in the event chart and its relationship to the natal chart.

1. Pluto rises at the time of the accident and AS/MC of the event semisquares natal Pluto.

2. Transiting Pluto station conjunct natal MA/SA and square natal MC.

3. Transiting Sun lights up the MA-SA-PL connection by making semi or sesquisquare to natal
MA/UR, MA/PL, SA/PL, UR/MC, PL/MC.

4. Everyone is recognizing the Lunar return, but what is really happening is the repeat of the natal aspect Moon semisquare to Pluto (and transiting Moon triggering the solar transit to Pluto 36 hours before). Tr. Moon also aspects MA/UR,SA/UR,SA/PL.

5. The AS/MC of the event semisquares natal UR/PL(also triggering the Saturn transit).

6. Event MC squared MA/SA and sesquisquared UR/PL.

7. Finally, transiting MA/PL(and therefore MA/AS) very closely opposes natal Uranus.

But similar transits were repeated for at least 10 more days during April/May and so there is no sure method to identify "the" date of an accident.Other factors like the transits for the friend of "Adam" will also affect the eventual date.

Since Pluto moves slowly, its repeated stations over a period of 2 years may be considered as potent as directions. In this case the 2 stations squaring MC and conjunct MA/SA in 2002 and 2003 appeared to have played the decisive role in the fatal accident. But this is an exception since 95% of the cases will have prominent directions triggered by transits.
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###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
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Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Congratulations to everyone who participated and were able to get their thoughts together. I couldn't get myself going with it – it was too overwhelming for me. But now, wouldn't you know, I have something to say.Surprised

Quote:
I am now however quite convinced that it is absolutely necessary to cast the SR at the residence of subject.


Oh my, that's all it took to get me going. Laughing

I'm really not seeing the case for using the relocated solar return. A classic and important traditional warning is when the Asc-Desc axis is reversed in the return chart, which is the case here using the natal location – natal Cancer rising becoming Capricorn rising for the 2001 SR. The Moon as lord of the natal Asc., being doubly important because located in the natal 1st, is conjunct the SR Desc., which has traditional signification of harm to the body and death. Saturn, lord of the natal Desc. and natal 8th becomes lord of the return Asc and is conjunct the return IC. Also, it was a 1st house profection year, so the Moon as lord of the Asc and sole 1st house occupant is extra important being conjunct the return Desc.

The following focuses on the natal Sun-Mars-Saturn configuration and those planet's relation to the IC and 4th house of the natal chart and birth location solar return chart, with Mercury as dispositor and lord:

The natal chart has an MC-IC axis of 17º 53' Pisces-Virgo. Natal Saturn conjunct the natal MC at 16 Pisces 43 is reflected in the SR conjunction of Saturn and IC (buried and hidden things, drowning, the end of life) with a close orb of 2º. The Sun joins in, so that the natal Sun-Saturn square becomes a solar return Sun-Saturn conjunction at the IC, opposed by sign to the other natal T-Square component, Mars.

The lunar return was the same day as the accident, so the LR Mars (natal Sun-Mars-Saturn configuration) is conjunct the birth location solar return IC and Saturn. The lunar return Saturn was nearly perfectly conjunct the solar return Sun in the 4th. The LR activates the SR IC and 4th house. The natal Sun-Mars-Saturn configuration is brought together in the SR 4th , and here we are doing the 4th house thing by talking about this man's mystery death. The Sun is lord of the ASC in the birth location LR chart and the Moon is just applying square Sun. So it looks like we have plenty with the ASC, Sun, Moon, Mars and Saturn and don't need any of that fancy hyleg stuff. Confused

If you use a tri-wheel centered on the SR with the LR as 2nd and then the natal chart outermost, you will see:
- Natal location solar return IC @ 03 GEM 27 conjunct SR Saturn @ 05 GEM 27
- Lunar return Mars @ 04 GEM 35
- Natal Mercury @ 02 GEM 16. Mercury is the domicile lord of the natal and SR IC and dispositor of the natal Mars-IC conjunction and natal Sun. [Mercury also happens to be the lord of the natal Emerson Death Point located at 17 VIR 18 – so closely tied to the natal Mars-Saturn-MC-IC configuration! (The death point is Mars + Saturn – MC. Day and night.)]
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margherita



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Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steven wrote:
Hi Kirk,

Quote:
A classic and important traditional warning is when the Asc-Desc axis is reversed in the return chart


Says who? Which author or ancient astrologer tells us this?
Steven


Well Cardano says something like that in one of his first astrological books, De Iudiciis Geniturarum,

The first thing we should consider about returns is if in a return planets are adverse to their natal positions - even when they are well disposed- the return generally predicts a great danger. An example is when a native has all the planets below the horizon, but they are above the horizon in the return; or when a native have all the planets falling from their houses and in the return they are in their houses; and if all of them are retrograde in a geniture and in the return they are in the highest points of their epicycle.....

On the contrary when a return is very similar to the geniture, predict without any doubt a distinguished result between the ones promised by the geniture; the same if all the promittors and the significators of the same event should come back to their place.


The same Lilly: If the Ascendant of the Revolution be in square or oppositio to the ascendant in the radix..the native will then receive losse and detriment in that yeer...

and Andrea Argoli, which I recently translated for my blog several aphorisms about health in Solar return, mentions many times the 7th house as dangerous for the body and health.


This comes from Ptolemy, I guess, because he says, opening the chapter about illness:

NEXT in succession to the foregoing chapter, the circumstances relating to bodily hurts, injuries, and diseases, claim to be discussed; and they require to be considered in the following mode.

For the investigation of these circumstances, the two angles on the horizon, both the ascendant and the western, must in all cases be re-marked; but more especially the western angle and its preceding house.


Seventh house was always linked with illness and disease, so if angles are reversed, and the radix Ascendant falls in the 7th it does not bode well, in my opinion,

I look forward to reading the books you mentioned,
margherita
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Isaac Starkman



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
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Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have spent the last days in testing the methods AquaStella used to identify the year, the month and the day, that is:
1. When the Asc-Desc axis of the SR is reversed (or the same?) to the Asc-Desc of the radical chart it is a critical year
2. When the Asc-Desc of the LR is reversed (or the same?) to the SR axis it is a critical month
3. An important event will occur if any angle of the Diurnal chart is conjunct radical planet or transit; I used an orb of 2 degrees.
I used 25 charts of famous persons with very well recorded birth time and my rectification proved that the birth time is indeed very close to the recorded birth time. Altogether I checked 50 events; half of them are for death of the native. I CHECKED EACH METHOD SEPARETELY.
The results are very poor, no better than the statistical coincidence.
I'm sure AquaStella and others have much more experience than me in these techniques, maybe they can give us some examples? My testing with 50 events is not large enough, but the poor results don't encourage me to continue in testing these methods.
My experience with return charts shows me that the return charts should be always cast for the place of permanent residence and NOT for the birthplace. In this case we don't know the place of his residence; we only assume that it was either in his birthplace or close to it. The police message told us that he was a tourist, but we don't know if he came to Weipa some days earlier or some months earlier.
In many cases I observed that return charts are valid also to the place of accident, death or any very important event even if it is far away from the place of residence.

For any important event I always look at 4 solar returns:
For the birthplace, assuming it is the place of residence:
1. In SR , Saturn on IC
2. In the SR with precession corrected, Pluto on IC (orb 94') in opposition to Sun and Saturn
3. In the converse SR – in that case nothing special
4. In the converse SR, precession corrected, Saturn on MC orb 71' !! in opposition to Mercury
When the event is more than 3 months of the SR, I have found the quarterly SR is valid chart.
In the quarterly SR for 3 March 2002 Neptune on Asc and Saturn on IC!
In the same quarterly but with precession, Saturn in opposition to Pluto close to MC/IC axis.
In contradistinction to the SR and other planets, I have found LR valid only with precession corrected.
In the LR for 24 March 2002 Neptune rising and Pluto 180 Saturn close to MC/IC axis.
SR for Weipa:
In the converse SR Neptune on Desc orb 7'!
In the converse SR, precession corrected, SN exactly on IC and Mars exactly on Asc
In the converse LR, casting for 17 July 1928 Saturn on MC.

Deb told us that the data is came from a relative, but we don't know if the birth time is recorded or maybe a rectification, and of course without any events no rectification or verification is possible. Assuming that the birth time as given is very close to the true birth time, the Topocentric primary direction converse Uranus is 180 to cusp VIII orb 2' and this aspect is appropriate for the sudden death even if Uranus wasn't ruler of VIII or IX house.
In secondary directions :
Progressed Asc 90 progressed Neptune orb 6'
Progressed MC 90 Moon 10'
Regressed Moon conjunct Saturn orb 30'.
In converse transit, Saturn 13Sag16' in opposition to Sun, NN, and cusp 12.


Last edited by Isaac Starkman on Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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Deb
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Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder if the desire to reduce this event down to a statistical probability sort of 'misses the wood for the trees'? It seems to me that the most fundamental key is a very dramatic signature in the birth chart, and it was the reinforcement of this signature which brought its potential into manifestation at the particular time. Everything else is a pointer towards that. I have never been interested in trying to track the minutiae of people’s lives; and here I think the task involved finding the bigger picture and keeping the emphasis on that. Will someone get a 'reproducible method' out of this? I don't think so for a second. I hope to write more about the themes that struck me later in the week, when I have a bit more available time.

BTW, sorry Steven, for cutting your work short as I did – I hope the time spent proved to be productive anyway. Also, I didn’t mean to make any kind of ‘statement’ by including the solar return charts I did. Part of the purpose of this experiment – I figured – was to consider the degree to which future events were ‘seeded’ in the birth chart, without knowledge of anything else.

Also Martin, thank you for your addition and for correcting my mistake yesterday morning. I had realised earlier that Aquastella’s GMT time converted to the correct local time, but I completely forgot that when I wrote my post yesterday. I’m trying to do too many things at once over this bank holiday, and as a few people have said in the last few comments – it is much better to wait until we can focus on something. They were talking about astrological analysis, but I have to do that nowadays, just to know what I am talking about! Smile
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AquaStella



Joined: 17 Mar 2009
Posts: 194

Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yitschak starkman:
Quote:
3. An important event will occur if any angle of the Diurnal chart is conjunct radical planet or transit; I used an orb of 2 degrees.


No, this is not the way a diurnal chart is used. One should look for exact aspects (within a few minutes of arc) to the diurnal angles from transit, natal and progressed planets.

Have been testing this technique for years on my own chart, and it proved to be very accurate.

The textbook I used :
Art of Forecasting Using Diurnal Charts
by Mason, Sophia.

As for the rest of YS's claims:
From the experience of many astrologers we learn that every natal chart is unique, and there's no one single technique that gives accurate results with all natal charts. Astrology is not calculus.

If Astrology were such an accurate mathemathical/computational science/technology as calculus, astrologers would never have had any problem proving its validity and turning it into yet another publicly acknowledged branch of mainstream science to be studied in universities by technocrats for a Bsc., Msc. Dsc. in Astrological Engineering.

Why can't we have a horary computer program to provide us with accurate answers to horary questions, based on an atomic clock and a GPS?

Why can't we find on Google a Google-horary section for locating missing items , pets and people over Google-earth maps?
Anyone wants to join me for such a startup to make a $1Billion exit and become rich and famous ?

Astrology is not a statistical science. It is a celestial art ! Gobsmacked
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Martine



Joined: 03 May 2009
Posts: 70
Location: France

Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello

I have read the previous posts and found them very interesting, especially the methods explained by Steven, of which I have taken good note and thank him. However, I like to experiment by myself and so I have tried the method below, in order to compare various SR charts.

Suppose Adam had visited an astrologer in the spring of 2001, asking for his solar return to be made. What could this astrologer have said to him, and using what tools ?

To answer this question, I have compared 4 SR charts, that is with and without precession and set in the natal place or in Weipa. The most efficacious was the SR not precessed and set in Weipa.

In his book, Ciro Discepolo enumerates the 4 most important features, in his opinion, to be checked in the SR. These are :

- the place of the SR ASC in the natal chart
- the place of a SR stellium in the SR chart
- the place of the Sun in the SR chart
- the place of the malefics, especially Mars, in the SR chart.

I have found that the sign houses give the best answer here. In the SR not precessed set in Weipa (3 June 2001 - 9:21:21 - AS 16°57 Cancer), using sign houses, I find :

- the SR ASC in the 1st of the natal chart
- a stellium in the 12th of the SR chart
- the Sun in the 12th of the SR chart
- Saturn in the 12th and Mars in the 6th of the SR chart.

Therefore this is obviously a very dangerous year.

Since the worst affliction of the Sun, meaning the life force, is its conjunction to Saturn, I will check the transits of Saturn over the natal Sun during the year, together with the transits of Mars. On the following dates, Saturn is conjunct the natal Sun :

- 3rd August 2001, with Mars at 16° Sagittarius
- 21st November 2001, with Mars at 17° Aquarius
- 21st April 2002, with Mars at 5° Gemini.

The most dangerous period does appear to be around April 21, since Mars is then conjunct Saturn and the Sun. The astrologer might have issued a warning about these dates, especially the last.
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###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
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Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Steven,

Quote:
If you were to ask Morinus he would tell you the contrary; i.e. when the chart of the SR has the same ascendant as the nativity it is a heads up for potentially potent events!


I run the risk of moving too quickly here and missing critical material, but here's Morin as translated by Mr. Holden. Book 23, Chapter 18, Section 3:

Quote:
And in particular those revolutions should be watched for in which the same degree of the ecliptic is found in the Ascendant as was in the Ascendant of the radix; for then each planet rules the same houses in the revolution as it ruled in the radix, which does does not usually happen without [producing] some notable effect signified by the nativity, since the force of the signification of the signs will also be doubled, at least in the place of the nativity and thereabouts.

It doesn't sound necessarily bad, just significant and powerful. He does here seem to be especially interested in a repetition of the Asc. Degree.

Later, section 5 of the same chapter begins with:

Quote:
When the Ascendants of the radix and the revolution are opposed, it is evil and disturbing, and worse when the degrees [themselves] are opposed, especially in the case of a solar revolution.

And even without old sources, doesn't it just make sense? Maybe Morin doesn't go back enough for some folks and can't be considered traditional enough. That's what happens when we try to smear all “traditional” astrology together into one muddy pool.


I have very serious doubts about turning one's nose up at the natal radix chart and the location of its derivation as the source and basis of cycles. Radix, root. When working with return charts the location of the natal chart and its marking of time and space is a – to me, the – logical beginning point. Sure, the current residence and the 'psychic energy' it contains from our clothes in the wardrobe, our books on the shelves and our dirty pots and pans in the sink – our current life – probably does carry a force and significance. But the natal location makes logical and symbolic sense as a beginning, a logical first step in working with return charts as an extension of the natal chart's foundation. The natal location provides the root return, which can be reinforced or altered by the chart of the current location. But to pass up return charts and not use them simply because of not knowing the current location is, for me, a very grim error. I see that as the nasty influence of 'either/or' that we see so much of in old astrology circles.

Hi Margherita,

Thanks for the sources you gave! Right now I'm not coming up with others, but I'm pretty limited here.
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yuzuru



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 1393

Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Deb for the excellent exercise. Hopefully everybody learned a thing or two.

Eddy:
Quote:
Another point is that when one is busy working on this the chance is that you become more and more convinced of being on the right track, even when totally wrong. If I had had spent more time on it I believe I simply would have searched for more justifications of the already found (erroneous) month and year, using techniques I normally don't apply (like I did in the other thread).


Very truth! In fact, I did this when I used aphesis of fortuna and got convinced that he would die after october 2002. But nothing is in vain, and as result I have another evidence that aphesis is more useful for hindsight astrology.

Quote:
Anyone wants to join me for such a startup to make a $1Billion exit and become rich and famous ? Astrology is not a statistical science. It is a celestial art


Agree with you and want to join you in your startup! Googlorary would be ok?

To Kirk:
I have found several authors who claim either way: that the ASC in the 1st is the dangerous solar return, or that the ASC in the 7th cusp.

Modern Astrologer Nanc McCullough for instance, use the natal location and the ASC repeating the natal ASC as indication of death.

Volguine made a little comparation and concluded that if the natal chart was "bad", then a repetition of the natal ASC would be dangerous because it would trigger death. But, if your chart were good and sound, the SR ASC on the natal 7th would show problems, would "Weaken" the natal promise. Volguine would use relocated chart.

In Varshaphala astrology, both the asc in the natal ASC or natal DSC can be signs of bad health and a bad year! They use the natal location!

Best regards to all and congratulations to aquastella
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My blog of astrology (in english) http://episthemologie.wordpress.com
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###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1380

Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Steven,

The discussuion hasn't been moved, so here I go.

Quote:
But Morin also said you have to cast the SR for the location of the year and not the natal location, so quoting him you need to keep that in mind.


The Morin sentence immediately preceding the one I quoted from Section 3 (concerning replication of the angles) reads:

Quote:
But this greater similarity (at least in the position of the signs) can be acquired or vitiated by the native's traveling to appropriate places of the earth for the time of the revolution, and especially for that of the Sun, as was already said in Chapter 4. And this is a secret of the science that should by no means be despised.


Morin isn't speaking here in the sense of “must”, but more in the sense of an opinion and recommendation. He begins Chapter 4, 'For What Place Should the Figure of a Revolution be Erected', with:

Quote:
About this matter, the old astrologers settled absolutely nothing; but in common with them, the moderns by tradition only, always erect the figure of the revolution for the latitude of the natal place; but I erect it for the latitude of the place in which the native is found at the very moment of the revolution
.

Morin mentions the astrologers of his day using the natal location “in common” with the old astrologers, but following this he claims to be winning converts, drawing them “forcibly and instantly to our opinion”. He does write mid-way Chapter 4:

Quote:
Therefore, the revolutionary constitution must be investigated primarily and per se with respect to the native in whatever place he is at the moment of the return of the Sun to its radical place, and it must be compared with the natal constitution, which, impressed upon the native, accompanies him perpetually.


So it looks like we do have a combination of 'must' and using the location at the time of the return. But in that paragraph he had just been writing about “the influxes of the stars” and the need to be present at the location in order to soak up their rays, so to speak. His is a materialist view, present in Ptolemy, I believe, and in keeping with the quickly developing scientific view of cause and effect upon physical bodies – physical bodies which are moving to various physical locations and receiving emanations from the planets. His view will naturally differ from that which sees the birth chart more as an imagistic event at a time and location which stands on its own and retains the qualities and inherent further developments of then and there. Just as a person in London is the same person when he's in New York. In New York he may wear pretty dresses rather than business suits, but he's still the same guy.


Hi Yuzuru,

Thanks. More evidence that astrology is and says what we want it to be and say?

***********

Edited to add: I want to point out that Morin himself lets us know that his use of relocated charts is the exception rather than the rule for his time and before.
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Deb
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Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn’t see the call to move the comments yesterday; and to be honest I would find it hard to know where to cut into this discussion; and it is always risky when we try to move posts, because they might get deleted instead.
But at this point the discussion of SR does seem to be taking over the topic, and I would like to see the focus brought back to this example chart. So perhaps if anyone wants to continue talking about this particular point, they should begin a new thread, and I will create a link to this.

Regards
Deb
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unique_astrology



Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 150

Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pressing events have kept me from more than a few momentary peeks at the thread for the past several days.

Isaac Starkman wrote:

Deb told us that the data is came from a relative, but we don't know if the birth time is recorded or maybe a rectification, and of course without any events no rectification or verification is possible.


The above may be the most meaningful statement in this entire thread. It is acknowledged by astrologers around the world that a verifiable recorded time of birth is a fundamental principle of astrology, essential to setting up an accurate birth chart and all of its derivatives, yet the statement received no acknowledgment nor elicited any response from anyone. I daresay most, if not all participants, are aware that birth times are not recorded on English birth certificates. I respectfully submit that the birth data may be regarded as DD (Dirty Data) according to the Rodden Rating System and hope that this post will be taken as commentary on the data source as we are aware of it at this time..

With that in mind and weighing one singular instance of apparent failure against thousands upon thousands of progressed lunar returns with successful results, whether using natal or mundane charts, I returned to the demi-anlunar return before the event and rectified to a birth time which produced an appropriate progressed return for it.

This time scored well with natal, progressed natal, solar and lunar return, when all were compared against each other and transits.

Bob
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Deb
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Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The above may be the most meaningful statement in this entire thread.


Then what a waste of time the whole thing has been.

I really cannot see your purpose in making this comment now, since all of this was explained very clearly, right at the start, in the preliminary thread which you yourself commented upon and agreed to.

Deb wrote:
I have an unpublished chart for an ordinary (ie non-celebrity) man who went missing. … I was given his birth data from a close relative.

I obviously can't release details about this man’s identity, but what we have here is a known time of birth (presumed to be reasonably accurate) and the knowledge of when the man died.


So if anyone had this objection they should have spoken up then, not now. Or chosen not to participate. The whole point of having the preliminary thread was to ensure that anybody who had any kind of problem with the criteria of this, could speak up first, and not wait to denounce the thing at the end.

This was not dirty data because it was given to me by close relative and it is obviously accurate because it is timed to the minute – not the half hour; plus as far as I’m concerned it has been proven to be accurate by the contributors who noted the valid connections. Now, the situation was all explained in advance, with the informal and private nature of the data explained too. Nothing is intended to go into any kind of official collection and so the Rodden dating system is as irrelevant as a comment which questions the reliability of the data now.
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