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Mystery chart – identifying the time of greatest danger
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Deb
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Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Ellen

I'll give that information at a later stage, but for now I want to see if this can be done just from the birth chart, without knowing where he would be in the future. If we were going to outline the periods of danger for several years ahead, as earlier astrologers did, we wouldn't necessarily have that information.

Regards
Deb
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Deb
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Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With reference to where the accident happened - I wonder if we have any A*C*G or locational astrology experts, who might be able to suggest places on the globe where this man was most likely to have an accident?

Just a thought
Deb
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AquaStella



Joined: 17 Mar 2009
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Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
With reference to where the accident happened - I wonder if we have any A*C*G or locational astrology experts, who might be able to suggest places on the globe where this man was most likely to have an accident?


I'm no expert (though I do have an over-active imagination with my mighty Saturn in the 9th on Altair), but taking a look at the ACG chart we can find Mars/Asc, Pluto/Asc ,Saturn/Desc lines running through the Himalaya mountains, somewhere around Katmandu, Nepal. Since the natal chart has Saturn cnj the Mc, then according to a certain ancient astrological authority, the native might get killed by falling from high places.

Saturn in a water sign might be frozen water , aka ice or snow. One could speculate that the native was traveling in the mountains or climbing, and accidently fell from great heights. Alas. Sad

A different imaginary option (one of many) would be New Delhi, where the natal chart has Uranus at the Asc, and Jupiter on FS Aldebaran on the Mc (parans). Could he have been invovled in some military espionage/intelligence mission (well he does have natal Sun on the cusp of the 12th of spies and secrets- CIA? MI5? Mossad?) which lead him to his unfortunate death, hence the "secrecy"? Confused Secret
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Mystery chart – identifying the time of greatest danger Reply with quote

Excellent exercise, Deb – I for one appreciate the non-celebrity chart! This is a tough one to crack using (Ptolemaic) primary directions to the hyleg, though. It is easy enough to see the natal indications of a violent death, but there are precious few directions that could actualize this natal promise within the given time-frame.

Using whole-sign, equal, Porphyry, Alcabitius, Campanus or Placidus houses, the role of hyleg falls to the Moon. Only Regiomontanus puts the Sun far enough (?) into the 11th to make it hyleg.

The malefics are in near-exact opposition on the angles, with the Sun closely applying to square them both. It is almost inconceivable that any other point should become the anaereta (and Saturn ruling the 8th makes it even more so). And yet, there is no contact between the Moon and the malefics by direct motion until the native would be in his sixties – and we know he died before age 45. There would be a converse direction (in the traditional sense) in his late teens, but again, you said he died as an adult.

The Sun reached the square of the malefics in very early childhood, and then their trine/sextile around 37-38 (or, by converse motion, around 20-22). The latter hits fall in the appropriate time-frame, but would they really kill even if the Sun were hyleg (which I do have trouble accepting)? Perhaps they would, given the natal square.

This chart has me so puzzled, I am toying with the idea of taking out my Placidean box of toys – something I would never normally do. If I write another post full of italics and CAPITALS, it will be because I have donned my Worsdale persona. Wink

Later:
I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote that the Sun would be in the 12th using equal houses. Equal and Regiomontanus are the two systems (among the older ones) which have the Sun in the 11th.


Last edited by Martin Gansten on Wed Aug 19, 2009 6:39 am; edited 1 time in total
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margherita



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Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Mystery chart – identifying the time of greatest danger Reply with quote

Using Placidean directions -i.e in mundo with Placido's key- Saturn squares Sun in July 1991 while Mars squares Sun in June 1993.

I would prefer this, because Mars is a night planet in a day chart.

Someone tried to use "under the pole" directions? Martin? I don't feel like to do calculation by hand....

margherita
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al-Nablusi



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Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
according to a certain ancient astrological authority, the native might get killed by falling from high places.

Saturn in a water sign might be frozen water , aka ice or snow. One could speculate that the native was traveling in the mountains or climbing, and accidently fell from great heights.


I, too, think that he may have fallen from a high place, a cliff, a mountain, (or fallen into a pit - Mars, Pluto, Uranus on the cusp of the IV) during a journey. A natural disaster, or adverse weather conditions, may have been involved. Water must have been in some ways involved too.
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Deb
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Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's another image of the chart - for those members who prefer to see proportional houses

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al-Nablusi



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Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Based on

1. Secondary progressions
2. SR for the place of birth (no other choice but using the place of birth)
3. Transits
4. Profections

and - last - primary directions (I found PD to the hyleg difficult to use to determine time of danger for the native)

I believe that the event happened in 1995. If I were to choose an approximate time range, I'd pick 1993-1996.

God willing, during this time the native went on a trip, during which he fell from a high place, a cliff, a mountain or into a pit. It must have been deep, or he was literally buried under something. Adverse weather conditions or a natural disaster could have been involved.
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astropet



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Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since he has a Sun/North Node natal conjunction, this might mean that some sort of fated event was in store for him. Not something good, however, as they are on the 6th/12th house axis. Secondary progressed NN was conjunct his natal Sun around 1991-1992. In the solar return of 1993, he has a Sun/SN conjunction. If we want to use the outer planets, at that time the Neptune/Uranus conjunction in Capricorn was opposing his Ascendant. So, my guess would be that the accident happened between 1991-1994, due to intense nodal activity.
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SIDERUM



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Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Deb!!!
This man has always lived surrounded by violence, because the IC is the midpoint of Mars / Pluto aspect that comes out of the MH, and opposes Saturn, very close to the Cusp X.
Moon is ruler of the ASC midpoint of Pluto / Node, which symbolizes his relationship with violent fringe groups, as well as sample handling and obsession, indicates cladestinas skills, secret, criminal violence, ultra-secret connections, movements and terrorist connections.
House VIII is ruled by Uranus (Pluto conjunction and Mars) and also opposite Saturn of Regent VIII.
Indicating a violent death by complete destruction.
As I said before this person since he was small in relation to violence, being also a dangerous and violent person, Moon = Pluto / Node.

The Facts:
2005
Primary Direction
ASC square progressed Neptune (Saturn = dispositor House VIII).
MC in sesquicuadratura Mars / Pluto.

Solar Return (2005)
ASC Ret. Solar (London) = 16 º Capricornio. Saturn square Moon / Node.
MH Ret. Solar (London) = 21 º Scorpio = Pluto / Node = Connections destructive purposes death.
MH Ret. Solar antiscio Mars / Pluto, here the repeated appearance of the solar MH radix and progression!.

Solar Return Siderea:
MH = 21Geminis opposite Pluto
ASC = 23 Virgo opposite Mars
Mars and Pluto and angular, and Parans!!!

Solar Return Siderea Converse
MH = Mars / Pluto.

Lunar Return (Jul 2005)
ASC = 10 º Sagittarius square Uranus
House II / VIII = 17 º Capricorn / Cancer, conjuntion ASC / DSC Square Solar Return Mars!!!

DIRECTIONS
Uranus, Direct (1º = 1 year), square the ASC Radix partil for the July 7, 2005!!!. Sudden death and instantaneous!!!
The Terrorits born at=06:30:36 GMT
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unique_astrology



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Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A real conundrum. In the first 30 years of this person's life transit Saturn makes 74 hard aspects (conjunction, square, or opposition) to the Sun, Mars Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, Pluto, the MC or the Asc of this chart. Uranus makes 36 such aspects, Neptune 29, Pluto, 15, and Mars 545. Adding transit Mars to the progressed Sun and Mars (leaving out the progressed Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto) brings the total to 835 hard aspects to those in 1,560 weeks or about 1 every 2 weeks on average.

While that may make it harder to select any one period it also increases the chance that someone may hit the target blindfolded. Would it be necessary to compare the correct answer to all of the other possibilities prior to the correct one to see what they offered in comparison?

As any of those transits could offer the possibility of an accident (with each occasion involving the same markers) and there is absolutely no way of knowing how any or each of them would work out a comparison of all of the above transits before the event would prompt a warning.

I shall have to wait until further information is available. While the progressed lunar return is a great timing tool it cannot distinguish between just an accident and one which proves fatal.

Bob
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yuzuru



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Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, Deb

As Frawley said, the problem with predicting death is that not only I have to found death, I have to rule out death for every year before that...

If he died in 99, he obviously can´t die again in 2005...

but as I am lazy now, I will give it a try on 2007-08. If I got the time, I will go back to it and look in the past years to see if I killed an already dead man.

:-)
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AquaStella



Joined: 17 Mar 2009
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Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If we look for afflictions to the hyleg, then Moon as Hyleg was just hit by the recent Solar Eclipse (July/22/2009), and the cusp of the 8th by the previous solar eclipse (Jan/26/2009), and Mars at the IC by another solar eclipse (Sept/11/2007) which also activated the deadly natal Mars/Saturn opposition. Then again, as yuzuru had already mentioned, those eclipses meant nothing if they hit an already dead man's chart.
Anyway, judging by the natal chart itself, the native lived a dangerous life, so when was the hyleg itself most vulnerable? Confused
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3D



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Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Deb,

I fully subscribe to DrH’s post and your thoughts on discretion. I think compassion for this man’s and his family’s fate should not be forgotten as we dwell on Astrological techniques.

He has a difficult birth chart with a clear tendency towards accidents any time in his life. Additionally, there is an indication to exaggeration, from the Jupiter-Sun conjunction, the parallel of declination Jupiter-ASC, and the nature of the Saros Cycle (3 North) under which he was born.

He weighed about 120 kg if I converted the Stones correctly. Such a weight usually develops only after the first Saturn return. Child obesity is a rather recent phenomenon (junk food) and does not stem from good old English cuisine.Smile

So we have two decades under question, the 1990ies and the current decade. Deb’s inactive period from 1998 to 2002 can be excluded.

I was first looking for 2 or more simultaneous hits of Mars, Saturn, Uranus, Pluto or MC/ASC with Solar Arc Directions in the 45° Graphical Ephemeris. Then I did the same with Transits. After that, Primary Directions and Secondary Progressions. After narrowing the time windows, I looked at the preceding Solar Eclipses and their relation to the natal chart.

2004 and 2007 fit these criteria best.

There was a difficult time indicated around 1994-1996 in the Secondary Progressions, namely the square of progressed Jupiter to natal Saturn, however the indications for an accident in 2004 and 2007 (both around mid-year) are clearer. Both are equally strong but as yuzuru stated, one can only die once.

A general thought: I think in astrological predictions, the ‘inversion of an argument’ is not always possible. What I mean is, if you have the time of an event (and a reliable birth time), you will find fitting astrological signatures. But you cannot - with the same certainty - infer from the astrological signatures to the event. (from A => B, but not necessarily from B => A).
This is my disclaimer in case my time is wrong.Cool

René
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Deb
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Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure if it is cheating to be quite so clever about it Rene Smile

Anyway, yes, I understand the objections being raised, and they are valid points. It may be that most of us will only be able to understand how deep the connections go when we look at this chart in hindsight. But I’d like to make a suggestion.

Most people seem to be trying to identify a year or a range of one or two years based on favoured predictive techniques such as primary directions, profections, etc (I don’t think we’ve had much by way of solar returns or eclipse points – and I don’t even know if they are relevant).

But I think that if this were being done for a client, and you highlighted a worrying year, you wouldn’t suggest the whole year as a time to be especially careful, but would try to identify the most worrying time of the most difficult transits (or lunations, or whatever) within that year. If something difficult is going to happen, the effects would surely be felt within the period of the most difficult transits. So you might get a lot closer with this, if you look a little deeper.

I can tell you that the only thing I looked at and noticed when I worked on this chart, was how closely it related to the time of the accident. The transit connections between the moment of birth and the presumed moment of death are very strong and reflective of each other. This is one of several charts that has convinced me that there is undoubtedly a connected thread between the moment of birth and death, because those two moments fit together like a hand in a glove. But with all the moments in a life time, how can a mortal astrologer possibly sift through them all in advance? My suggestion is to start with your predictive technique but don’t be too inhibited by it. When you get a sense of a possible time-span, sift through the major transits – if there is nothing that fits to this chart in a quite striking manner, then that is probably not going to be the year.

Also remember how many times we talk about predictive charts being so much stronger at those times when they reflect the natal themes. So I think it makes a lot of sense to spend a bit of time analysing the natal chart first, and again, if you can’t find a period that contains a time when the natal theme is being mirrored in some way, that is probably not the right time either.

I will also add that this man was not a terrorist, and there was nothing extreme in his lifestyle that I know of. Everything I heard from his family suggested he was happy and amicable, with a love of travel and an active social life. I think that Rene is right to dwell a little on the Sun-Jupiter conjunction which fits his phycial profile because that seems influential in his personality as it was described to me. The accident came out of the blue at a time when he was known to be in a jovial mood.

His birth chart does however, as several people have pointed out, show the potential for violent death. The (8th-ruler)Saturn-Mars opposition in the birth chart gives a very similar theme to that seen in King (lance-through-the-eye) Henry II’s chart, which is currently featured on the home page. Henry was also in a jovial mood at the time of his mortal accident. But not every birth chart with the Saturn-Mars opposition will suggest premature death through a violent accident, so look at the extra factors that add to the inevitability and hostility of that aspect. In this chart they are emphasised on the angles with Pluto strongly tied into the main action, and Uranus fairly closely involved too. The Saturn–Mars/Pluto opposition is also very closely squared by the Sun-nodal axis, making a grand cross out of the danger points. So that’s what I think you need to find a strong connection to, within a timeframe which supports the possibility of high-risk change.

Can it be done ? I am now convinced this is an extremely difficult task, so I don't think that anyone should hesitate for fear of being seen to be wrong. Presume that you will be wrong, because what we are trying to do here ought to be impossible.

I am finding all the replies fascinating, and it makes me realise how much we could learn from every chart that lies abandoned in our files, if we could only take each one out and give it the attention it really deserves.
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