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Mystery chart – identifying the time of greatest danger
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Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 159
Location: Wr. Neudorf, Austria

Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now I looked more insight.- So I have to change the time or live span. I am using now also a technik which looks for differences or distances between planets or sum and halfsum and try to get correlate dates in classic astrologsy.
The result is: there are a lot of corresponding "Aspects" in the year(s) 1993/94. In the age around 29 there I would see the imminent danger of live! The time of June 1994 is also indicted. Dangers of live is shown in the time span from june 1993 to the time of June/August 94.
I would say, after looking also to transits and Directions, the hitday (month) will be July 1994.

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Joined: 19 Jun 2005
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Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb wrote:
Also remember how many times we talk about predictive charts being so much stronger at those times when they reflect the natal themes. So I think it makes a lot of sense to spend a bit of time analysing the natal chart first, and again, if you can’t find a period that contains a time when the natal theme is being mirrored in some way, that is probably not the right time either.

Thank you for the hint, Deb. Repeating planetary patterns are interesting but so hard to find over a long time span.
Such a repeating transit pattern involving Mars, Saturn and Pluto in relation to the natal chart was around May 6, 2002, give or take two days. On the 6th, the Moon squared the stellium. At around 3 PM, transiting MC is conjunct transiting Mars/Saturn; it resembles the Natal Chart and is square it's MC axis.


P.S. How many tries have I got?
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
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Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

P.S. How many tries have I got?

There are no formal rules. I think it is OK for people to update their submission in the light of further reflection or research. Obviously, if you submit a new date every day it might undermine your reputation somewhat Smile
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Joined: 17 Mar 2009
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Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Mars/Pluto opposite Saturn aspecting Sun cnj Jupiter and natal Node theme is repeated in the 2001 solar return which also has an almost reversed Asc/Desc Axis to that of the natal chart (another sign of a critical year). Natal 8th house cusp is in SR first house, about 8 degrees from the SR Asc. The two charts together form a grand cross.

Moreover, the SR Asc is smack on the natal arabian part of death.
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Joined: 19 Jun 2005
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Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Deb

my remark
"P.S. How many tries have I got?"
was obviously stupid and even misleading. I didn't intend to reverse my original time (mid 2004 or mid 2007), just tried to be funny. Thumbs down

Even if May 2002 should be right, I wouldn't consider it as my offer. I was just following your hint with planetary transit patterns.

The more serious background of that remark was however that I am not fully sure if my approach will work, for the reason explained in my previous post (from A follows B, but it's not a bijective inference). Nevertheless, I'll stick to the original time given because I followed a certain methodology.


Obviously, if you submit a new date every day it might undermine your reputation somewhat Smile

Good one! Mr. Green
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Joined: 08 Dec 2004
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Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is 1 of the possibly more than 1000 dates this person could have had an accident. But I am not saying this was the date and time sought, just showing an example.


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Joined: 21 Sep 2007
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Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have only just started but summer 2000 could be "promising" based on a an eclipse and a transit but I need to do some more work.

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Joined: 03 May 2009
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Location: France

Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


On this chart, I tried first a method explained by Hervé Delboy in his book, "Astropronostic des périodes critiques de la vie par les directions primaires", which he applies to 100 charts of famous or notable people. His site is here <http> Unfortunately, I am afraid there is nothing in English. I tried his method because it is simple and easy to use, and, on top of being serious research, I heard it gives good results.

In this method, zodiacal positions are not used. One uses mundane positions and the aspects between them. They are called "domitudes" in French. You can use various house systems. Delboy uses Regiomontanus. In any case, by definition, the Ascendant has a domitude of 0° and the MC a domitude of 270°. Every house has 30°. Each planets has a domitude, measured in degrees, which corresponds to its position in the house where it is placed. The software AstroPC of Auréas calculates these domitudes. Once you have these, it is very simple to calculate by hand when a planet will meet another point or an aspect to this point. In his book, Delboy uses Ptolemy's key of 1° for a year of life, and I have done the same, using also Regiomontanus houses.

With this method, I could not find any primary direction of Mars or Saturn to the Moon which could explain the facts, so I took the Sun as hyleg, which anyway seems adequate for a day chart. Seeing that the native died in an accident, I chose Mars rather than Saturn as anaereta. So it is the following primary direction which, in my opinion, may indicate the death of the native. The domitude of Mars is 91°, the domitude of the Sun is 324°.4. The promittor, Mars, squares the significator, the Sun, when Mars has moved backwards for 36°.6, that is at the age of 36.6 years or on 8th january 2002.

Le us see what the transits were, around that date. But first, what kind of accident can I imagine from the chart ? Scorpio, with Neptune, is intercepted in the 5th house. This, in my opinion, shows danger while engaged in some sport or leisure activity. The Water element, and Saturn, the lord of 8th in Pisces, may show that death occurred in water. Let us note also that Venus, the first lord of the Water triplicity in day charts, is important here, as it is the triplicity lord of the Moon, Mars, Saturn, the Ascendant, the MC and the Part of Fortune. And Venus, the lord of 5th, is in 12th.

Now the transits :

- On the New Moon of 13th January 2002, the Sun, the Moon and Venus are at 22-23° Capricorn, conjunct to the 7th cusp, which also means death.

- Mars has just passed over natal Saturn, reviving the natal opposition (1st January 2002).

- Saturn, lord of 8th, is transiting the natal Sun by conjunction (August 2001 to April 2002), reviving the natal square.

- The mean North Node is transiting natal Venus by conjunction (3rd january 2002). In the natal chart, the two are next to each other.

For the sake of comparison, I tried another date, which I obtained from Morinus software, using mundane directions, Regiomontanus houses and Ptolemy key. Here we have the promittor Mars squaring the significator, the Sun, on 10th June 1997.

In June 1997, Mars is conjunct natal Mars, Saturn squares the natal Ascendant and Uranus is transiting the 8th cusp. But I find that there are not enough adverse influences on the Sun to explain the facts.

Therefore, my answer is the native died on or around January 2002.

I have just received Martin Gansten's book, after waiting for 3 months, but I have not finished reading it.

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Isaac Starkman

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
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Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I scrutinized only the last 10 years.
Based on solar returns, PSSR, secondary progressions and transits, my conclusion is that the most dangerous period was between June 2002 to Dec 2002. The most critical days are around 30 June 2002, +/- 3 days.
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Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the possible time span I will make a addition. It could be also the time about the 30. June 1995. This fits also in the "system" which I am using. So there are two dates, one in 1994 and one 1995. I think June 1995 is more close to the real time!

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Joined: 27 Jun 2009
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Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:44 pm    Post subject: Deb's chart... Reply with quote

Goodness! This is a tough one... (like I haven't enough to do... 10 books sitting waiting to be read and I'm doing this!!)

OK Using a number of directions, secondary progressions, transits and the use of antiscia I have come up with August 1998.

I won't list the aspects unless I am close..... Seems like we are all scratching our head with this... I feel quite lame!

Regards to all

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Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is tough!

Using common methods, I have two periods that stand out.

Sep 1998 and May 2002

Curious to see the final results.
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Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have just bought a second-hand ephemeris for 2001 to 2050 (somewhat optimistic given my age). Anyway I started at 2002 and the first critical day that I have found is 8th April 2005 with Saturn transitting the natal ascendant squared by an eclipse.

The question is do I find more testimony for this this date or do I keep going forward and finding out if this kind of thing is common and risk finding a time when he has already died?

For the moment I say summer 2005.



Having said that I note that the lunar return of 30th March has some challenging aspects to the natal.In rare cases the misfortune happens before the eclipse so I now revise the time to first week of april 2005.

Last edited by mattG on Fri Aug 14, 2009 5:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Martin Gansten

Joined: 05 Jul 2008
Posts: 1268
Location: Malmö, Sweden

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 4:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Mystery chart – identifying the time of greatest danger Reply with quote

As I found this tough going with my normal (and rather circumscribed) set of tools, I have decided to give it a go using the approach found in Placidus, Partridge and (most particularly) Worsdale. This will also help me to evaluate the usefulness of that approach. I am not sure whether I hope to be right or not: if these methods turn out to work, I may have to re-examine my views on certain 'modern' (post-1600) techniques!

Putting personal preferences to one side, then, and donning my Worsdale hat, it is clear that only the Moon is fit to become 'the true prorogator of life'; and between the native's age of 18 and 45, it encounters only two directions capable of 'producing personal dissolution'. Wink These are:

- Moon to the sesquisquare of Saturn in mundo, direct motion, arc of direction 31°50' (with parallax correction, as recommended but seemingly not used by Placidus, 28°36')
- Moon to the semisquare of Mars in mundo, direct motion, arc of direction 33°58' (with parallax correction, 30°39')

Mixed with these directions is the Moon to the quintile of Jupiter in the zodiac, direct motion; but Worsdale would not have considered it capable of saving the native, as Jupiter itself was afflicted by the mundane square of Mars (direct motion) and the zodiacal sesquisquare of the same malefic (converse motion) around the same time.

According to Worsdale it is normally the first direction that shows the actual time of death, while the directions following in 'the mortal train' indicate its quality and circumstances. In this case, the first direction would perfect around February, 1996 (with parallax correction, around January, 1993), using the key of Placidus.

By secondary direction, the hyleg is directed to the opposition of Saturn just before the age of 30 years 8 months, corresponding to February, 1996. By transit, Saturn would then be conjunct its natal position and opposite Mars. Between late December, 1995, and February, 1996, Mars itself would be transiting the natal and directed positions of both ascendant and the hyleg by opposition.

About the quality and circumstances, Ptolemy (Tetrabiblos IV.9) states that natives die 'by violent and conspicuous means whenever both the evil planets dominate the destructive places, either in conjunction, or in quartile, or in opposition, or also if one of the two, or both, seize upon the sun, or the moon, or both the luminaries'. This is clearly the case here. For Saturn square or opposite Mars, Ptolemy particularly mentions death 'by being caught in the collapse of a house; and if they are in midheaven, above or below the earth, by a fall from a height'. He also states that when both malefics work together to cause death, such natives 'are even left without burial, and are consumed by wild beasts or birds' -- which agrees with what we know about the body not being retrieved.
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Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Posting in two parts

Part I. Delineation. Longevity and Profile of the Native


Hyleg/Hilaj/Giver of Life. Figure is diurnal and Sun is preferred but disqualified by placement in the 12th house by whole sign houses. Moon angular in the 1st qualifies.

Anareta/Killing Planet/Cutter. By al-mubtazz scoring, Venus, Jupiter, and the Moon are the three high scoring killers. Scores are very similar for most planets. That combined with the fact that an angular Saturn is the 8th house ruler tells me that the al-mubtazz scoring method is unlikely to produce the correct results because the testimonies favoring a single planet are not overwhelming. Also that we should not shy away from considering the benefics as killers. Both Venus and Jupiter receive Saturn.

Alcocoden/Al-Kadukhadah/Giver of Years. Moon in her own sign of Cancer can trump all other alcocoden candidates. Conjunct the MC by a degree, Saturn also participates.

If the Moon, Moon grants her 108 major years. Though the Moon-Saturn trine and Moon-Mars sextile aspects are slightly outside moiety-of-orb, I judge both Saturn and Mars deduct their minor years anyway because of both planet’s angularity. Saturn deducts 30 and Mars deducts 15. Mercury falls in the Moon’s antiscion and is the planet to which the Moon applies. As the 12th house lord, I judge the Moon will deduct its 20 minor years. Net projection: 108 - 30 - 15 - 20 = 43 years.

If Saturn, Saturn grants his 57 major years from which Mars deducts 15 leaving a net projection of 42 years. Question is whether or not benefics Jupiter or Venus add years by square aspect with reception. Practically, with a 42 year projection yielding 3 June 2007 as a target longevity with the individual presumed deceased prior to the present time, benefics cannot add years. There is the more interesting possibility that as 12th house planets and high scoring killers, that Venus and Jupiter could be considered accidental malefics and subtract years. Traditional authors do not discuss benefics as accidental malefics deducting years but I have found a few cases where this seems to work. If so, longevity is much less than 42 or 43. Suppose Jupiter deducts 12 minor years as months (Jupiter in detriment and combust) and Venus deducts 8 minor years as years and 45 middle years as months. Net deduction is 12 year 9 months (from 42) leaving a net projection of 29 years 3 months. This is a projection I am not going to pursue for various reasons, but if the projection 42/43 or so fails, I suggest this is why.

Finally note that the Syzygy was a solar eclipse. For these cases, I have seen many exceptions to the rules. I also suspect that dynamic activity to the Syzygy degree (9GE13) may be relevant in timing the native’s disappearance. Also the possibility that recent solar eclipses may be involved in death. They are: 22-Sep-2006 (29VI17), 19-Mar-2007 (28PI00), 11-Sep-2007 (18VI24). The 2006 eclipse was conjunct the lot of Death (26VI26) and the 2007 eclipses conjunct Saturn and Mars respectively. Triggers to these eclipses should be considered as a part of the timing methodology.

Bottom line: The Alcocoden approach is a ballmark method of determining longevity. I have seen some aphorisms which state death should not be judged prior to the expiration of the alcocoden (sorry can’t remember source). Anyway, I will use the alcocoden as a “ballpark” figure and establish the initial risk period from age 40 (3 June 2005) to the present time (14 Aug 2009).

Manner of death. As has been commented on, the posting of this exercise follows a total solar eclipse conjunct the Moon of this nativity; also the transiting mean South Node was conjunct the Moon the day this was posted. Moon placed in the bound of Saturn/Cancer, significator of floods in mundane astrology, is relevant; and confirmed by recent floods, typhoons, and mudslides in Asia over which the recent solar eclipse was visible. Saturn placed in the water sign of Pisces, elevated in the 10th, also provides confirming testimony to the role of water in the native’s death. An elevated Saturn promises some type of fall. With Saturn placed in the 9th by whole sign houses, the house of journeys, death at sea, swept from a vessel by a typhoon or otherwise falling in rough waters comes to mind. This is reinforced by placement of both the Lot of Travel (2CA12) and the Lot of Travel by Water (19SC16) in water signs. As another alternate, I have seen Saturn/Pisces the significator for castles with moats, or some type of compound isolated from society. Falling from the high walls of this type of structure is another possibility. In addition, Mars falls in the 3rd of short-term travel by whole sign houses. Focusing on the Saturn-Mars opposition, it seems that travel of some sort plays a part in the native’s disappearance.


Temperament - Sanguine/Phlegmatic. Ribeiro’s methodology yields a primary phlegmatic secondary sanguine temperament on the account of the Moon/Cancer placed in the Ascendant and ruling the Ascendant giving so many testimonies for phlegmatic. Deb’s description of the native suggests sanguine is dominant. In support is the Gemini stellium, Moon’s application to Mercury/Gemini, Moon conjunct Mercury by antiscia, Ascendant’s bound ruler Jupiter in Gemini, and Asendant’s rising decan (Pisces/decans of Varahamihira) is also Jupiter/Gemini.

Conclusion: Native is an easy-going, talkative individuals with many friends. Has a depressive/phlegmatic streak which lies below the surface.

Manners - Saturn/Mercury. Al-mubtazz of both Ascendant and Moon is the Moon; when a luminary is the al-mubtazz I take the bound ruler of the luminary instead, thus Saturn. Al-mubtazz of Mercury is Mercury. So Saturn-Mercury.

Conclusion: Montulmo/Schoener states Saturn/Mercury if fortunate means the native has an acute intellect, an investigator, and is learned; if unfortunate, envious, robber, deceiver, and involved in diabolical matters. Though oriental, Saturn is peregrine and ruled by a 12th house Jupiter in detriment. Mercury is also 12th house lord. This is a mixed combination; I judge the native is involved in learning and investigation of secrets and illicit activity. With Saturn conjunct Achernar, nature of Jupiter; and Jupiter conjunct Aldebaran, nature of Mars but interested in the truth (a/c Brady), I judge the native is not involved in diabolical matters. Yet because Saturn (no matter how bonified by fixed stars) is conjunct the 10th whatever the native is interested in studying/investigating will cause him unwanted attention from authorities which harms his social status and career.

Ruler of Chart - Moon (Ibn Ezra). Mercury and Jupiter also score fairly high. Picatrix says individuals ruled by the Moon are governed by the natural spirit and are lovers of women, joking, games and playing. If Mercury or Jupiter; conquered by the rational spirit and interested in learning and justice.

Moon's Configuration. Moon separates from Mars and is void of course; alternative, Moon applies to Mercury.

Maternus on Moon separating from Mars and VOC: “The full Moon moving away from Mars toward nothing wastes inheritance and destroys parents, imposes some kind of affliction on them, or causes an evil death. To the natives themselves she predicts death from wild beasts or from a fall from high places; some die of public execution.” Bram translation, p. 133.

Maternus on Moon separating from Mars and applying to Mercury, Full Moon (waxing Moon): “this indicates convictions and sentences at court, deportations by sentence of the judge, and a violent death.” Bram translation p. 126.

Conclusion: Either configuration is problematic, especially because Mars is the out-of-sect malefic which adds some choler to the native’s character. It also suggests that a choleric action of some kind sets into motion problems for the native.


This figure yields a negative feedback loop in the following way: Cancer rising seeks emotional security. Moon in the bound of Saturn/Cancer (ruled by Saturn/Pisces) separates from Mars/Virgo and applies to Mercury/Gemini/12th. Native is sensitive to his immediate environment and as the collective result of Saturn/Mars influences (parental conflict, job problems, real estate problems) the native withdraws and seeks information, gossip, chatter (also sexual activity) with his friends. But because Mercury as 12th house lord in turn rules Mars (directly) and Saturn (through Jupiter), the types of secret intellectual/sexual activity the native finds solace in restarts the cycle.
Dr. H.
World Class Research in Medieval Predictive Astrology
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