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Mystery chart – identifying the time of greatest danger
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Deb
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 8:27 am    Post subject: Mystery chart – identifying the time of greatest danger Reply with quote

The birth chart shown below is for a man who went missing following an accident. There is no longer any real doubt about the fact that he died when he went missing, but his body is not recoverable. I was given his birth data from a close relative, in case it helped with the horary I was asked to do at the time. The case did not receive media attention, and it won’t be found on the internet.
The purpose of this challenge is to see how feasible it is for an astrologer to be expected to identify the time of death, or a potentially mortal accident, from the birth data alone. I am therefore not going to post any details about the accident itself, or the location in which it occurred, at this stage, because that would be hindsight information. I want to give members the opportunity to see how much they can discover from the birth chart alone.
I invite you to use your favourite predictive technique, or a combination of several - profections, directions, progressions, lunations, transits, solar returns, or whatever - to obtain your judgement on the period of greatest potential danger. He was born in 1965 and this obviously occured between adulthood and now. I think it will be interesting, for example, to consider the identification of the hyleg and whether that offers reliable information (I haven't yet checked this myself).
I was told that the data was reliable so I had no reason to consider rectification, and didn’t ask for details of other life-events for the purpose of rectification (my main focus was the horary chart and the birth data was only used as a background check). What I noticed were some strong correlations between the two charts, which is why I believe a good astrologer would probably have been able to identify this period of danger. But of course, I saw it all in hindsight, so maybe this will not be easy at all.
Hopefully this will prove to be an interesting and informative experiment. Please bear in mind that this concerns a tragic event and that when we refer to these mystery charts as ‘challenges’, the idea is that we challenge ourselves, and not each other. If you submit a time, please be prepared to explain your reasoning, but just give an idea of the techniques used without going into too much minor detail – because if your judgement is on target I’ll ask you to do that later.
I am going to let this challenge run until the end of August. At that stage, if no-one is close to the time of the event, I will reveal some more information to narrow the time span. If one or two people, or more, are close, then I’ll ask only those members to participate further in the thread (with the hope that many more will participate in private, at home). My ideal situation is that this chart leads to someone being asked to write up their method on how they managed to successfully identify a time of such danger from the birth chart alone.
If you have any questions please ask, although I can’t think of anything more to add at this stage.

The man was described as 6’2” tall, fair haired with a mole on his left cheek, robust (18 stone in weight), pleasant natured, and out-going with a good sense of humour. Use any zodiac, house system or personal approach you feel is most reliable.
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Wolfgang



Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 158
Location: Wr. Neudorf, Austria

Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I looked with two "Systems" for a first "impression". That will mean, I will look more deep inside later. With the method of secondary directions as used in ÖAG (Austrian Society of Astrology) it looks bad at the time 2005 in September; it could be a half year earlier. With the method of mundo parallels (Placidus)it also shows a time near OKT 2005 (Saturn - Neptun).

Hyleg is Moon. In "secondary System" the moon is coming to DES from Radix and also in Konjuntion with the point of death! (19°12 Sag)

Wolfgang
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AquaStella



Joined: 17 Mar 2009
Posts: 194

Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

911 - World Trade Center?
(Sept-11-2001)

methods:
1. Transits.
2. Teritiary progressions.
3. Secondary progressions.
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Deb
Administrator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the sake of keeping everyone's mind open, I'll just say that this was not connected to the Word Trade Centre disaster, or any other famous or well known event. I don't want to dwell upon the details of the accident because it might lead people down the wrong alley, but it was just a private accident - it didn't make the news.
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AquaStella



Joined: 17 Mar 2009
Posts: 194

Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry for having mentioned this date and event.
Sad
Still , it is quite alarming to see in how many different stressful ways this natal chart was activated around the time of the 911 disaster (for example: the Saturn/Pluto opposition right on his Sun and North Node on the cusp of 12th house.) : Transits, solar arc directions to natal planets and midpoints, tertiary and secondary progressions, and especially the angular planets on his diurnal chart for the due date (with his birth time about 1-2 minutes off probably), precesssed solar return for birthplace with the birthchart over it, non-precessed solar return for NY , reloctaed precessed solar return for NY, reloctaed lunar return, and 36th age harmonic chart. Surprised
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Ju0Spica



Joined: 07 Jul 2009
Posts: 18

Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Early death is indicated by the Mars-Saturn opposition in the MC-IC axis. Neptune sextiles this and so will square them at age 30 by solar arc direction. Looking at the ephemeris for 1995, one can see two powerful stations, Saturn conjunct MC opposite Mars and Uranus sesqisquare Sun, in October-November 1995. Using transits of or to Sun and Mars I get the likely triggering dates 1995 October 26 thru November 1 and 1995 November 12 thru 14.
Systematic investigation of other years will take more time and effort and I may post other dates later(or if the timeframe is narrowed).
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epurdue



Joined: 14 Nov 2007
Posts: 327

Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going to calculate the alcocoden and also direct the killing planet. I'm calculating this as I type, so I don't know how it will turn out. I will say I tend to get better results with the alcocoden calculation than directing the killing planet, but primary directions are so cool, I can't resist. I'm getting my methods from Zoller's course for what it's worth. I'll split this into two posts.

Alcocoden

First you have to find the Hyleg.

Bonatti says that in a diurnal chart, if the Sun is in a masculine sign in the 1st, 11th, or 10th house, it's the Hyleg. This person has the Sun in Gemini in the 11th.

To find the alcocoden, we look for the planet with the most dignities in the degree of the Hyleg. This should be Mercury.

To find the years, you prefer the planet's major years when the planet is dignified and angular, and so on. You give medium years when the planet is dignified but succedent. This is Mercury.

Mercury's medium years is 48.
Mercury is conjunct Jupiter. Usually you add medium years in a case like this, but Jupiter is afflicted by detriment. So I'll add minor years to this which is 12. This makes the total so far 60.
You subtract years when the alcocoden is afflicted by a malefic. Mercury is under the Sun's beams, so I'll subtract the Sun's minor years which is 19.
This brings to total to 41
The Moon is sextile and is in rulership. I'll add the Moon's minor years to this - 25. The total is now 66.
Bonatti says (quoting Al-Kindi) if the north node is within 12 degrees of the alcocoden, it diminishes a 1/4 of the years. Bonati disagrees, but if this were the case, it brings the total to 49.5.

In my opinion, the alcocoden is a ballpark number. It's almost never exact. I don't know when this person died, but if they died this year, that makes them 44. In any case, if this person came to me for a reading, not that I predict clients' deaths, I wouldn't necessarily think they would die at 49.5 years, but I would think they would die before they were old.

Next post directing the killing planet.
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Estebon_Duarte



Joined: 19 May 2009
Posts: 134
Location: West Coast USA

Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Mars/Saturn opposition, with Saturn as ruler of the 8th in the 10th shows a sudden death, accidental in nature.
With a quick look at his Profections and SR during relevant Firdar periods, I would place the accidental death sometime between ages 39-40, roughly 2004-2005.
If earlier than later I would suggest the accident involved water.
Again, I only spent 20 min looking at this chart.

Great exercise!!
_________________
Western Predictive Astrology by Estebon Duarte Independent Researcher AMA MACAA
Natal Chart & Annual Solar Revolution Reports
www.organic-astrology.com
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al-Nablusi



Joined: 31 Jul 2009
Posts: 44

Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought of using the same technique as Mithra6, but need some time to do all the calculations etc.

Is it ok if I still use this method or should I choose a different one?
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epurdue



Joined: 14 Nov 2007
Posts: 327

Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doesn't boter me. I'm working on the directions now.
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Deb
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

al Nablusi, choose the method that you prefer, we are bound to get some people using the same techniques and approaches. And remember that it's OK to experiment a little too, as the thread is intended to act like a scratchboard for ideas. We have no client-pressure here.
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linchi



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 12

Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1993 July-August

MC = 19° Aries (1° = 1 Year) which debilitation of Saturn
and antiscion at 11° Virgo = Uranus
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epurdue



Joined: 14 Nov 2007
Posts: 327

Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Finding the killing planet

This is done by making a almuten chart. The killing planet is what I call a complex almuten where you find the almuten over a variety of points on the chart. You take the ruler of the sign of that degree and give 5 points, exalted ruler 4 points, all three triplicity rulers 3 points each, bound ruler, 2 points (I use Egyptian bounds), and decan ruler 1 point. You then add all the numbers for each planet and the planet with the most points is the killing planet. These points with degrees from this chart are (note - after posting my formatting was off. If you quote this post, you it should be easier to read my horrible attempt at a table):

The ascendant
20Canc58
Sat Jup Mars Sun Ven Merc Moon
4 3,2 3,1 5,3

Ruler of the Ascendant
Moon 29Canc13
Sat Jup Mars Sun Ven Merc Moon
4 3,2 3 5,3,1

Part of Death
26Vir26
Sat Jup Mars Sun Ven Merc Moon
3,2 3 5,4,1 3

Ruler of the Part of Death
Mercury 02Gem16
Sat Jup Mars Sun Ven Merc Moon
3 3,1 5,3,2

4th house
17Vir52
Sat Jup Mars Sun Ven Merc Moon
2 3 3,1 5,4 3

Ruler of the 4th house
Mercury 02Gem16
Sat Jup Mars Sun Ven Merc Moon
3 3,1 5,3,2

Triplicity ruler of the 4th
Venus 26Gem12
Sat Jup Mars Sun Ven Merc Moon
3,2 3 1 5,3

8th sign from the Sun
12Cap27
Sat Jup Mars Sun Ven Merc Moon
5 2 4,3,1 3 3

Ruler of the 8th sign
Saturn 16Pic42
Sat Jup Mars Sun Ven Merc Moon
5,1 3 4,3 2 3

Total
Sat Jup Mars Sun Ven Merc Moon
16 29 29 1 24 49 29

Mercury is the killing planet.

Now the directing.

To find the death, you direct the ascendant or Hyleg to the killing planet. I don't think in this case directing the Hyleg to the killing planet will give a reasonable date since they are so close. Even with the complicated math, I don't think it will ever come close since by longitude they are only about 10 degrees apart. Maybe I'm assuming too much, but I'm going to go with the ascendant here.

First we find the oblique ascension for the ascendant. For this you take the Right Ascension of the MC and add 90 degrees. I do the math by decimal by the way to make it easier.

RA of the MC is 333*48'50 (333.8139)
333.8139+90=63.8139

The we find the Oblique Ascension of Mercury.
First, find the tan of the birthplace (54.2833) and the tan of the declination of Mercury (20.0182).

Tan birthplace 54.2833 = 1.3907917
Tan declination of Merc. 20.0182 = 0.3643300
1.3907917 x 0.3643300 = 0.5067071
Then I take this number and calculate the SIN-1 of it. This is called the Ascensional Difference.
AD = 30.4447 (30*26'40')

Take the AD and add it to the RA of the planet if the declination is south or subtract it when the declination is north. In this chart, Mercury's declination is north, so we'll subtract it from Mercury's RA. Again I'll use decimals.

RA of Mercury is 60.2289

60.2289-30.4447= 29.7842

29.7842 then is the Oblique Ascension of Mercury.

Now we just take the OA of the ASC and subtract the OA of Mercury.

So a conjunction of the ASC to Mercury is 34.0299 (34*1'47"). Using Ptolemy's key of 1 degree a year, I think this comes out to Late June 1999. So, a conjunction is about 10 years off by my calculation. Janus shows a conjunction at August 27, 2000 for what it's worth.


Last edited by epurdue on Sun Aug 09, 2009 11:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Ju0Spica



Joined: 07 Jul 2009
Posts: 18

Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My last post mentioned the Neptunian direction to Mars-Mc-Saturn suggesting a late 1995 date. Mars-Mc-Saturn will direct to Asc in 1999-2000, Uranus in 2004-2005, and Sun in 2006-2007. Of these three, due to 4 stations of Uranus in 2006 and 2007 contacting its natal position, Pluto and Mars-Mc-Saturn , I am inclined to pick the 2006-2007 timeframe as another likely period when the accident and death occurred. I might spend more time to narrow this period further if the 2006-2007 timeframe is confirmed.
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Ellen



Joined: 07 Jun 2008
Posts: 26
Location: Tucson, Arizona USA

Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb,

For the purposes of those of us who use solar returns, is it possible to say whether the man lived his life near his birthplace? Or did he move somewhere else?
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