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Mystery chart – identifying the time of greatest danger
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Eddy



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
Posts: 922
Location: Netherlands

Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Instead of questioning the birth time I am re-considering my used primary direction. Although the coordinates of the birth place aren't given (I believe?) I estimate the PD MC and Asc in 27°Aries and 16°Leo respectively. With my estimated year 2005 I got PD MC and Asc further then the square to natal Moon and Neptune respectively. With this one the number of degrees for both is 2° before exact. Several conclusions can be made:
Either
- birth time shuld be corrected 8 minutes, but trusting the time we could
- adjust the key or
- use another reference frame or
- widen the orb or
- consider (my) use of only directing MC and Asc as too meagre or
- in the worst case doubt the use of PD's.

This is what's going on in my thoughts and how I consider such issues, although the last option would be also the very last choice unless in many other cases I won't get satisfying results at all.
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Atlantean



Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 396

Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello UniqueAstrology,

I can certainly relate. I would have also have loved to use Topocentric Primary Directions in this challenge, but with a rounded birthtime (assumed to the minute), it was impossible to rectify the chart and use them.

The result, I had to try and use other methods to arrive at an answer. Everyone has mutability somewhere in their chart, so sometimes, one just has to ADAPT.

I am not belittling your technique. All ideas are worthy of at least being looked at. Perhaps, with the initial conditions of this challenge, your "normal" tool was not the best one to use. I AM behind you in the idea that we must ever try to have the most accurate times as possible. For astrologers, it's the INITIAL PREMISE from which all things flow. An error here, propagates down the line!

Re: "What would any of you have done? Am I to believe you would have ditched decades of successful research in light of the results in 1 case?"

I don't understand. If you have thousands of cases where it works, why would one "anomaly" be a major cause for concern. I would just write it off as "not accurate enough birthtime for that particular technique" and then move on. I DO understand having a technique that you have seen work with amazing results and having the desire to share/show that technique. I am the same way about Topocentric Primary Directions.

Then you said, "Nobody here has, to my knowledge, taken the minimal amount of time necessary to learn and apply the technique to charts with verified recorded birth times and seen the extremely accurate results I have never failed to see and without being aware of its history, dismiss its veracity."

I would love to give you an example case with verified (in document) and rectified 1 m 16 sec to be absolutely correct. I have quite a few events. I don't bring this up because I need info or because I need my name/info in front of everyone's eyes. It's just that this is the best data that I have...the one of which I am most sure, ie. MINE.

If you're up for the "challenge", I am game. I had already looked at your technique and saw impressive initial results.... with an example I can work along with AND your tutelage, maybe more will see/understand/use your technique. I am open for anything that WORKS.

We can also discuss it in EMail if that is better.

TMC
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Atlantean



Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 396

Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eddy,

Re: Primary Directions

Using the given birthtime, Topocentric Primary Directions give:

Mars semi-sextile Uranus (0° 1' orb)

Uranus opposite 8th (0° 2' orb)

Pushing the birthtime forward 15 seconds makes both directions almost 0. Still, that doesn't mean that's right. You can't rectify and verify a chart with just one event, since there are no out-of-sample Events to test the rectification with...

Good luck with your studies, Eddy. Don't write off PD's...you'll find a system that works.

TMC
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Eddy



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
Posts: 922
Location: Netherlands

Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks TMC, however I usually don't use planet to planet directions because I want to rule out the risk that there is a too high chance of always finding some direction.
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Deb
Administrator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi RegulusAstrology

Thanks very much for a really interesting post – I hope to come back to a couple of your points when I can find the time to give my own review Smile. Thanks also to the contributors who are continuing to discuss the chart, and not getting too sidetracked into the discussion on the data. I will make one last point about that, so everyone understands why I feel so strongly that the point should be dropped.

This was never a rectification exercise. The reason I stated, explicitly, from the start, that the data can be presumed to be ‘reasonably accurate’ was to clarify that; so that no one would attempt to recreate the ignominious post-challenge complaints that the rectification challenge descended to. Because that thread became so difficult at the end, all moderators are wary about proposing these otherwise useful threads. We have the ridiculous scenario of inevitable criticism – because either the data is in the public domain, so other contributors are suspected of cheating; or the data is not in the public domain, so the data is suspected of being dirty. I was so concerned about that not happening here, that I even created a preliminary thread to lay out the proposed scenario. Unique Astrology contributed to that thread with the full understanding of what I was proposing, and recommended that I proceed. For him to raise these concerns now proves that nothing I could have done would ever have been suitable for his required conditions, unless it allowed him to prove the technique that he champions as his own.

I was especially wary that this should not happen, because what might be regarded as being mereley one of thousands and thousands of cases is actually a very unique and personal case history. It is a sensitive and tragic situation that we are discussing here and there was never any dispute about the data – it was delivered without hesitation and timed to the minute. Astrologers who already know everything and have a singular knowledge of infallible techniques should really stay out of these challenges. As I have repeatedly emphasised, they are offered as opportunities for members to step into a situation that a working astrologer has faced or might face, so that students of astrology can think about how the problem might be approached and resolved.

If members want to have challenges and competitions on a one to one basis, please do it elsewhere and not here. This was not a competition but a scenario for which each contributor could test their own understanding. Those who have found it constructive realised that limitations were factored in; just as they are often factored into the real life situations that astrologers regularly deal with. In this case the family did not want or expect a rectification of the birth time; and when they gave me the birth time they did not expect that it would be disputed.

Anyone who suggests that the time must be wrong because it doesn’t produce their expected result has obviously failed to understand the essential purpose of this thread. A test of whether their comments are ego-driven will be seen in whether they can now, having had their say, conclude that this thread is ‘not for them’ and stay out of it; or will they insist that the rest of us must be persuaded to their viewpoint too?

This morning I received a very interesting offer that might contribute to the basis of a similar thread sometime in the future. That would involve the identification of a lottery win for a couple, one of whom has an accurate ‘to the minute’ recorded birth time. I have also considered using (with his permission) my own son’s ‘to the minute’ unpublished data as the basis of a rectification exercise. But these threads have to stop being taken over at the end by the posts that want to argue against something negative, rather than those that want to discuss something positive.

For that reason I will be very pleased if further contributions keep the focus on what we can assess in the light of what is now known about this chart; without questioning its data. I am not personally concerned which techniques are discussed: traditional and modern are equally welcome, but let’s keep the discussion constructive so that we have good reason to repeat these kinds of experiments in the future.

Deb
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Atlantean



Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 396

Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Eddy,

Re: "Thanks TMC, however I usually don't use planet to planet directions because I want to rule out the risk that there is a too high chance of always finding some direction."

If one uses tight enough orbs and sticks to true symbolism, one can't always find "some direction", because there aren't enough in order to do so. The problem comes in with large orbs and varying symbolism.

In the accident, there is a very tight Mars-Uranus aspect (normally a "definition" symbolization for "accident") and you have TIGHTLY Uranus opposing the 8th (Topocentric). If this were a chart that we were trying to rectify, these are of the type of events that we would "want" to see for the described event.

If the symbolism were wrong or the orbs not very, very tight, then there would be no point in bringing it up, because it could be merely coincidence.

Have fun!

TMC
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Eddy



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
Posts: 922
Location: Netherlands

Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb wrote:
I was especially wary that this should not happen, because what might be regarded as being mereley one of thousands and thousands of cases is actually a very unique and personal case history. It is a sensitive and tragic situation that we are discussing here...

This is an imporant issue I think anyone should be aware of. Since a large part of astrology consists of applying techniques and astronomical facts there is a risk of losing out of sight that in astrology we are (almost) always dealing with humans. Likewise in medicine and law there is a risk that problem A is solved with medicine or jurisprudence B. Working like this reduces the work of doctors, lawyers and also astrologers to a mere technical exercise and the person we are dealing with to a 'thing'. This is in particular a danger involved with astrology.

I remember that 9 years ago I was discussing someones chart (with the 'owner'). She told me about some problems and when these had taken place. Looking through the ephemeris while she was telling her story I managed to find transit 'hits' close to the dates she mentioned. Yet I suddenly felt that if I then would mention those transit moments, this would devalue her experiences to a mere list of planetary data. I refrained and didn't mention those transits at the moment.

Keeping in mind that we are dealing with human beings is a difficult yet essential part of astrology.
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3D



Joined: 19 Jun 2005
Posts: 125

Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

Somehow the text to this chart got lost, also in my files. My modem had crashed after a strong lightning. I was doing some research in Solar Returns after Aquastella's excellent timing with Solar Returns. Congratulations Aquastella! Thumbs up

http://bildupload.sro.at/p/325320.html

This BiWheel shows two charts arranged concentrically. The inner wheel is Deb's Mystery Chart, the outer wheel shows the Solar Return (precession corrected, for the birthplace) for the year of the tragic disappearance and most probably death of the native.

I think the chart is quite self-explanatory. For those not familiar with BiWheels: the Asc-Desc axis of the return chart touches the critical MC-IC axis of the natal chart, and the Solar Return MC is right on the natal Sun where Saturn moved at the time of the accident.

Hope this helps
René

P.S. I am in the midst of a small research on Solar Returns. For 10 persons who have already died, I compare SRs in various ways:
- tropical and precession-corrected
- birthplace and relocated
- Moon's aspects
- angles conjunct angles
and looking for the best 'fit'.
When the study is completed I will come back in a separate thread.


Last edited by 3D on Sun Sep 06, 2009 9:42 am; edited 1 time in total
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mattG



Joined: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 345
Location: Greenwich UK

Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

3D,

Would you mind telling us what this link leads to ? Sorry but I do not like surprises.

Thank you

Matt
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margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 1358
Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

matt23z wrote:
3D,

Would you mind telling us what this link leads to ? Sorry but I do not like surprises.


It looks like a biwheel

margherita
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AquaStella



Joined: 17 Mar 2009
Posts: 194

Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It looks like a biwheel


It is a biwheel indeed:

inner wheel : mystery natal chart.
outer wheel : 2001 precessed solar return for birthplace.

That is to show how much clearer the warning is in the precessed solar return than in the non-precessed one, in mystery chart case.
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AquaStella



Joined: 17 Mar 2009
Posts: 194

Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Fact or...coincidence?


Hrmmm..Fiction ? Confused

Quote:
What is the logic?


Having an Msc. in Aerospace engineering and years of experience as a scientific software developer with natal Saturn in the 9th, I cannot bring myself to admit that astrology is anything other than a medieval superstition. Since when is medieval superstition supposed to be logical? Confused
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pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 1214
Location: Delhi

Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steven and Aqua Stella,

between the two of you -Space,Land and Ocean have all been covered,but ,can someone explain the explanation Lala Happy .Something like so- http://www.higgo.com/quantum/laymans.htm

The problem is not with any hypothesis but its reproducibility and making it very predictable.


PD
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Martine



Joined: 03 May 2009
Posts: 70
Location: France

Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Steven

You wrote :

Quote:
Isn't that a redundancy to use a tropical zodiac and then precess the SR? What is the logic?



As you know, the tropical zodiac moves following the earth axis. This means that when you compare the natal chart with the return chart, both charts are not drawn in the same zodiac.

I think the natal positions are out of time and so they cannot follow the precession movement. By correcting the precession, one takes this in account. It does not mean you have to use a sidereal zodiac.

Regards
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Martine
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CJ



Joined: 01 Apr 2007
Posts: 38

Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martine wrote:
Hi Steven

You wrote :

Quote:
Isn't that a redundancy to use a tropical zodiac and then precess the SR? What is the logic?



As you know, the tropical zodiac moves following the earth axis. This means that when you compare the natal chart with the return chart, both charts are not drawn in the same zodiac.

I think the natal positions are out of time and so they cannot follow the precession movement. By correcting the precession, one takes this in account. It does not mean you have to use a sidereal zodiac.

Regards


When one precession-corrects one is saying that for example a transit position of Mars 1 Can is not actually 1 Can, it's actually maybe 28 Gem (as a theoretical example, but could be real in a mundane chart). By saying that one is also invalidating the zodiac one is using.
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