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Mystery chart – identifying the time of greatest danger
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3D



Joined: 19 Jun 2005
Posts: 125

Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Steven

I have no problem to represent a precession-corrected Solar Return in the Tropical Zodiac. If you convert it into the Siderial Zodiac, it’s (well, almost) exactly the same as the true Siderial Return. The only requirement is that we use the same reference frame for the charts we compare. Spica e.g. is Spica and it is where it is, no matter if we say it’s at 0° Libra or at 24° Libra.

The fundamental question for me is – and that’s the subject of my small study with 10 cases – is how we “remember” the Solar Return. When is the Sun at the same position as it was when we were born? What is that same position? Is it the distance of the natal Sun from the Vernal Point (tropical return) or the position vis-à-vis the celestial background (sidereal / precession-corrected return)?

René
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Martine



Joined: 03 May 2009
Posts: 70
Location: France

Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CJ wrote :

Quote:
When one precession-corrects one is saying that for example a transit position of Mars 1 Can is not actually 1 Can, it's actually maybe 28 Gem (as a theoretical example, but could be real in a mundane chart). By saying that one is also invalidating the zodiac one is using.


When correcting the precession, it is not necessary to take the transiting planet back in the zodiac. You can take the natal planet or point forward in the zodiac. Supposing the natal point is 28 Gem and the precession is 3° (for a mundane chart), you can bring the natal point to 1 Can, but keeping in mind that it was in Gem. This way, you do not change the quality of the transiting planet.
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Andrew Bevan



Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 4673
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Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am unfortunanetly too late on the scene to participate in this interesting, yet tragic exercise involving the death and disappearence of this young man. As a latecomer I am impressed with the way the team of astrologers contributed to solve the riddle and also that AquaStella picked the right time. Very impressive. With the result being known I immediately disqualify myself from the contest, but from the part of sharing my 'take' on astrology I would like to contribute with what may be derived from the Age Point technique, which is the technique I that have been patiently developing and practicing for the last 23 years.


The Time of Greatest Danger – according to the Age Point method.

The Age Point is directed through the sign of Sagittarius from the age of 33 ½ years and until the age of 38 ½. This is the first warning of the period of greatest danger. Jupiter is in his detriment and combust the Sun on the cusp of the 12th house. The native is in this manner overpowered and a victim of circumstance within this period. It is not a good sign. Jupiter’s quality is further deprived by his disposition of the Moon’s South node in Sagittarius. The Age Point entering the sign of the South Node is a further warning of fatality. Usually this point indicates a ditch, depression, vacuum or dump in the road. As circumstances would have there was actually an obstacle in the road involved but more in terms of a ramp – which is more within the natural significations of the sign Sagittarius. The South node also indicates narrow passages.

There are many obstacles as the Age Point is directed though the sign of Sagittarius. First there is the 3month passage where the AP forms a T-square to the Saturn/Mars opposition from the age of 35 yrs and 5 months (AP 18SG28 square Mars) until 35 yrs and 8 months (AP 16SG58 square Saturn). This coincides with the dates of November 2000 through to February 2001. Then the AP reaches the Moon’s South Node at 36 years and 4 months. This is in September 2001. Both these periods portray danger and hazard that lead up to the moment of fatality.

The accident is noted on April 23. 2002. At this time the native is 36 years and 10 months. The Age Point is 9SG40. This is exactly opposite the detrimented, combust and debilitated dispositor of Sagittarius, Jupiter. Jupiter casts his square to Uranus, co-ruler of the 8th house. More importantly Jupiter is on the contrantiscia of the 7th. The cusp of the 7th casts its antiscia to 9SG02!

The Capricorn 7th is the reptile ‘croc’ counterpart. The Age Point in Sagittarius (travel, horses, motorbikes) opposing its dispositor, Jupiter, in Gemini (two on a bike) combust and on the cusp of the 12th (victimized, force major, large animals) and joining to the antiscia of the Capricorn 7th (the adversary, opponent and predator).

All the hard aspects that the Age Point makes as it is directed through the sign of Sagittarius (Mars, Saturn, South Node, Pluto, Uranus and debilitated Jupiter) add up the total picture, but the tension was maximized and the accident occurred as the Age Point reached the opposition of the key-planet dispositor Jupiter on the antiscia of the Capricorn 7th.

I checked with the Solar Return provided for the 36th birthday of this unfortunate young man. Moving the Ascendant clockwise with the rate of one degree per day, the Year Age Point (YAP) does on April 23 reach 9 Pisces. The Jupitarian vulnerability is the same and the YAP is in an exact square with the AP at 9SG.
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Martine



Joined: 03 May 2009
Posts: 70
Location: France

Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Andrew

After reading your interesting mail I went to your site. I have been studying your Age Point method, which seems very promising and I intend to test it.

However, there is something I don't understand on the Lady Diana example. You write that when she married, at the age of 20, her Age Point was 18° Leo, and then, when she had her first child, one month before the age of 21, her Age Point would be 18° Cancer. How is that possible, when the Age Point moves 6° a year backwards in the zodiac ? Could you please explain ?

Regards
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Andrew Bevan



Joined: 20 Dec 2005
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Location: Oslo, Norway

Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you. There is probably 200-300 articles on site from the last few decades and you will find mistakes. It is therefore very good that you work through things on your own and also that you inform me if you find any error. However, I suggest you contact me in private. It might not be topical and I do not want to clutter up the current thread. However, well done! Wink
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Estebon_Duarte



Joined: 19 May 2009
Posts: 134
Location: West Coast USA

Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hello all,
in explanation of my "gut feeling"; it wasn't really a guess, I wanted to use firdaria and profections solely to make my decision (especially since I use relocation for my SRs) and my first choice decidedly fit into what I "wanted" to see a chart produce during those firdar period.
However, the end of the Moon/Mars fridar has significance as Steven said, handing over the distribution, and involves planets that in this chart are a life-giver (the moon) and a anareta (mars). The alcocoden comes into play as well.
The bottom line is apparent, this chart shows sudden death. Any competent Astrologer would see that, and if this was my client I would have put much more importance on my "gut feelings" and investigate thoroughly all the salients. The fact that I was doing 3 different "Mystery" charts to the point that I crossed my delineations is a testimony for the need to focus on your intentions with a chart and the requested information from a client.
Anybody that committed to this exercise and got within 5 years is confident in their technique, congrats.

there it is-
thanks again deb, keep 'em comin.
Estebon Duarte
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cor scorpii



Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 580

Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steven wrote:
Quote:
The first timing technique dealt with the relevant current state of a person’s "being”, which is directly concerned with his life and body. It was a method where the profected ascendant is progressed through the 30 degrees of its profection in the nativity.


Quote:
Judgment was made concerning the state of the subjects being according to the planet testifying and the term lord. This was called the Major “esse” of the native.


Can this technique also be applied for discovering financial prospects of any given year; I mean, can we analize 2nd(any!) profected house in the same way or is it something entirely different?

Thanks in advance Very Happy
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Estebon_Duarte



Joined: 19 May 2009
Posts: 134
Location: West Coast USA

Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cor scorpii wrote:
Steven wrote:
Quote:
The first timing technique dealt with the relevant current state of a person’s "being”, which is directly concerned with his life and body. It was a method where the profected ascendant is progressed through the 30 degrees of its profection in the nativity.


Quote:
Judgment was made concerning the state of the subjects being according to the planet testifying and the term lord. This was called the Major “esse” of the native.


Can this technique also be applied for discovering financial prospects of any given year; I mean, can we analize 2nd(any!) profected house in the same way or is it something entirely different?

Thanks in advance Very Happy


hello,

not to attempt to fill Steven's shoes, but the profected Part of Fortune is a significant way to analyze the flux of wealth. The 2nd house cusp as well (though I can't personally testify for the term lord).
When the 2nd house cusp is profected to itself or its ruler(s) you will see a definite manifestation of what is offered for finances.

-Estebon
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cor scorpii



Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 580

Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Estebon, Smile

thank you very much for your contribution.
POF, of course! How could I forget it, after reading so much about its signification from Steven's posts Confused
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cor scorpii



Joined: 03 Jan 2008
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Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, this answers my question completely. I'll certainly give it a try.
Thanks, Steven Lala Happy
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woodwater



Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Posts: 151
Location: lisbon

Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb wrote:
For the sake of keeping everyone's mind open, I'll just say that this was not connected to the Word Trade Centre disaster, or any other famous or well known event. I don't want to dwell upon the details of the accident because it might lead people down the wrong alley, but it was just a private accident - it didn't make the news.


Was the accident in western Australia,where he has Pluto-Mars in ascendant?
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woodwater



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Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

interesting that in WSH or Equal house the ruler of 8 is in 9 indicating death abroad in Water(pisces)
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woodwater



Joined: 14 Sep 2007
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Location: lisbon

Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 12:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Mystery chart – identifying the time of greatest danger Reply with quote

Deb wrote:
The birth chart shown below is for a man who went missing following an accident. There is no longer any real doubt about the fact that he died when he went missing, but his body is not recoverable. I was given his birth data from a close relative, in case it helped with the horary I was asked to do at the time. The case did not receive media attention, and it won’t be found on the internet.
The purpose of this challenge is to see how feasible it is for an astrologer to be expected to identify the time of death, or a potentially mortal accident, from the birth data alone. I am therefore not going to post any details about the accident itself, or the location in which it occurred, at this stage, because that would be hindsight information. I want to give members the opportunity to see how much they can discover from the birth chart alone.
I invite you to use your favourite predictive technique, or a combination of several - profections, directions, progressions, lunations, transits, solar returns, or whatever - to obtain your judgement on the period of greatest potential danger. He was born in 1965 and this obviously occured between adulthood and now. I think it will be interesting, for example, to consider the identification of the hyleg and whether that offers reliable information (I haven't yet checked this myself).
I was told that the data was reliable so I had no reason to consider rectification, and didn’t ask for details of other life-events for the purpose of rectification (my main focus was the horary chart and the birth data was only used as a background check). What I noticed were some strong correlations between the two charts, which is why I believe a good astrologer would probably have been able to identify this period of danger. But of course, I saw it all in hindsight, so maybe this will not be easy at all.
Hopefully this will prove to be an interesting and informative experiment. Please bear in mind that this concerns a tragic event and that when we refer to these mystery charts as ‘challenges’, the idea is that we challenge ourselves, and not each other. If you submit a time, please be prepared to explain your reasoning, but just give an idea of the techniques used without going into too much minor detail – because if your judgement is on target I’ll ask you to do that later.
I am going to let this challenge run until the end of August. At that stage, if no-one is close to the time of the event, I will reveal some more information to narrow the time span. If one or two people, or more, are close, then I’ll ask only those members to participate further in the thread (with the hope that many more will participate in private, at home). My ideal situation is that this chart leads to someone being asked to write up their method on how they managed to successfully identify a time of such danger from the birth chart alone.
If you have any questions please ask, although I can’t think of anything more to add at this stage.

The man was described as 6’2” tall, fair haired with a mole on his left cheek, robust (18 stone in weight), pleasant natured, and out-going with a good sense of humour. Use any zodiac, house system or personal approach you feel is most reliable.

If he was born around Hull or York,judging from the coordenates, the rising degree is 9 of cancer not 20
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dr. farr



Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Posts: 276
Location: los angeles, california usa

Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunately I joined Skyscript after the Mystery Case was "solved"; however my analysis of the natal chart and its progressed implications, particularly using the Part of Death (its significator, Saturn) and the Part of Peril, together with the Dragon's Tail, yielded some very interesting insights particularly in light (retrospectively) of what actually happened to this person.
+Specific to the above post, my calculations put the location of this person's birth in Scarborough, England; the asc and other chart data as given by Ms Houlding are correct for this date, time and location.
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woodwater



Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Posts: 151
Location: lisbon

Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Mystery chart – identifying the time of greatest danger Reply with quote

from astro.com i still get 9 of cancer rising for Scarbourough with placidus for this person
looks like you forgot DST
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