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Joseph Crane on Definitions & Foundations
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zoidsoft



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Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gjiada wrote:


the point is this field is full of uncertainty. Scholars quarrel without finding an agreement. Evidently there is not a real and definitive evidence because if it was like that everybody would agree.


Disagreements arise when agendas conflict, not necessarily because the facts don't fit. People have a great capacity to believe what they want in the face of obvious facts to the contrary. There are are few areas that aren't in some sort of disagreement. The Kennedy assassination, Moon walk, Hitler's extermination of the Jews, etc. you will find disagreements and nay-sayers everywhere to fit the agenda based not on fact, but on advancement of personal goals.

The research of Fomenko has to be taken seriously because he didn't write that history, only subjected it to statistical analysis. It is easier and more reasonable to say that large sections of pre-renaissance history have been fabricated or re-written in some way than to fault the same statistical analysis procedures which have held up in other fields of science.

Relics in Rome prove nothing. You can have a caption contest on these relics and centuries from now it would become part of the history. All you have to do is rewrite in some way as to make it seem reasonable to the period and it would become "authentic" history centuries from now because none of us was there to see it.
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GR



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Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Fomenko's statistics are interesting though his conclusion isn't supportable, or even the most reasonable conclusion. I think he insists on the notion of the entire fabrication of pre-Renaissance history because of a reaction against Marxism, primarily the idea that history follows demonstrable patterns under the influence of dialectical materialism. We, being students of astrology, would probably point the source of that phenomena in another direction.
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zoidsoft



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Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GR wrote:
I think Fomenko's statistics are interesting though his conclusion isn't supportable, or even the most reasonable conclusion. I think he insists on the notion of the entire fabrication of pre-Renaissance history because of a reaction against Marxism, primarily the idea that history follows demonstrable patterns under the influence of dialectical materialism. We, being students of astrology, would probably point the source of that phenomena in another direction.


There are multiple explanations and I doubt that a complete re-write of history is the case here, but the changing of certain "facts" is not unlikely given human nature.

The Bible has lots of astrological symbolism in it and it is obviously deliberate, but can anyone here explain what the symbols mean? Somewhere that teaching has been lost.
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margherita



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Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zoidsoft wrote:

The Bible has lots of astrological symbolism in it and it is obviously deliberate, but can anyone here explain what the symbols mean? Somewhere that teaching has been lost.


But this does not mean that it was deleted by the Church or by some king in order to hide some occult secret, this happens just in Da Vinci Code.
The simplest solution is always the most probable in my opinion

Bible symbolism was lost for the same reason was lost Babylonian symbolism, because after 70 AD Jerusalem was conquered, the Temple destroyed and Jews left Israel and in the same time there were not Babylonians or Egyptians anymore to preserve their tradition.

And when the Roman Empire fell, the heirs of these traditions- Rome in fact saved and respected the traditions of won people- there was not Rome and its civilisation any more. That's all.

I really believe that these Russians like Fomenko needed a little more of Marxism - to attach me to what Gabriel Rosas said- in order to delete all their fantasies....education makes miracles.

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zoidsoft



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Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gjiada wrote:


But this does not mean that it was deleted by the Church or by some king in order to hide some occult secret, this happens just in Da Vinci Code.



When it comes to history, the simplest solution glosses over the details. Even though much history is lost just in the way you describe, there were emperors in the past who made history in their own image and conquered civilizations often didn't get to pass on what they knew. This ends up being the same thing you describe. It is important to remember human nature because this will usually tell you what the most probable answer is. There were many competing religions around the time of Christ and not much tolerance of other ideas, so when the church established itself, it sought to replace the pagan religions of the past with it's own symbolism. Given that this is often the case in religion and that astrology has many of the characteristics of a belief system, it should not be surprising that the same thing has happened in the field of astrology. Whether it be by error of omission or sin by comission, the result is the same. There is no need to assassinate when the leader will drop dead on his own accord.
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zoidsoft



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Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

History is extremely detailed and involves a great many twists and turns than the general account usually gives. What happened between Galileo and the church as is often reported by scientists and those against the church versus what really happened (giving a different picture) is a case in point. Therefore "simple" or "Occam's Razor" is not a good match for the truth when it comes to history.
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epurdue



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Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The thing about Fomenko isn't that he's disputing historical records, it's that he jumps to things like "Accounts of Jesus are actually such and such king and was actually crucified in the bosphorus in the 12th century". That's a stretch.

I remember years ago John Anthony West made claims about the Sphinx being older due to water erosion. I'm thinking great let's investigate further.

The he blows the whole thing by talking about Atlanteans.

I don't think you are going to bolster any arguments by citing Fomenko.
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zoidsoft



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Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mithra6 wrote:

I remember years ago John Anthony West made claims about the Sphinx being older due to water erosion. I'm thinking great let's investigate further.

The he blows the whole thing by talking about Atlanteans.


If one thing is false then all things coming from that same source are false. Those in positions of power count on this dynamic to lull many into slumber which makes the task of governing easier. No need to pay any attention to the man behind the curtain.
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epurdue



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Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the case of West, it was also the fact that there was no other evidence of an earlier civilization and the fact that the Sphinx has a lot of collateral evidence pointing to the established theory.

Fomenko is another ball of wax. Granted I haven't read his books and my opinion thus far is based on a Wikipedia article, but the whole story seems convoluted and far-fetched. One example Wikipedia cites is the fact that we have Greek and Roman coins spread out from Britain to India. For Fomenko's theory to be correct, it would take a truly unrealistically vast conspiracy to accomplish that.

But I don't think this thread is about Fomenko.

Regarding Schmidt, I don't have any of his books (can't afford them), so I can't really argue any of his arguments. I don't really know if I even disagree with them since all I know is from 2nd and 3rd hand. I'd love a complete translation of Valens though.
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zoidsoft



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Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mithra6 wrote:
In the case of West, it was also the fact that there was no other evidence of an earlier civilization and the fact that the Sphinx has a lot of collateral evidence pointing to the established theory.

Fomenko is another ball of wax. Granted I haven't read his books and my opinion thus far is based on a Wikipedia article, but the whole story seems convoluted and far-fetched. One example Wikipedia cites is the fact that we have Greek and Roman coins spread out from Britain to India. For Fomenko's theory to be correct, it would take a truly unrealistically vast conspiracy to accomplish that.


It is amazing what one can accomplish simply by omission. No evidence means false, acquittal. The statute of limitations from a historical context... What if you could see farther into the fog of history? There were almost certainly civilizations of some type that we do not know about simply because it was so long ago that no evidence survives. Just because the fog prevents you from seeing beyond it, does not mean that there is nothing beyond the fog.

As for Fomenko, I don't agree with his complete re-write theory, but his statistics still stand and prove that there was some sort of tampering that took place. If the only thing that a scholar ever does is cite fact and teach, they never amount to more than an echo of those who created original works.
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Deb
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Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But I don't think this thread is about Fomenko.


Its drifted quite a bit, so can further posts keep to the main topic of the thread. If anyone wants to say more about Fomenko, from an astrological context, please start a new discussion in one of the other forums.
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zoidsoft



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Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As for Crane's balking at Schmidt's translation of zoidion as "image" it will become clear when the platonic metaphysics are understood. It is not just that this picks up one of the meanings in the lexicon for zoidion, but it has broader implications. What did Plato say you can do with an image? If you just use the word "sign", then the metaphysics will be lost. For instance, can you say why one would look at the anticia degree of a planet? Use the word image for the zodiac signs and with an understanding of platonic metaphysics, it becomes immediately obvious. When you take the grouping of concepts together, a larger picture emerges which proves the existence of organization and methodical thinking. I won't spoil Mr Schmidt's argument here and divulge the larger picture, but let you think about it for a while. Each concept has a role and place within the larger whole and they all fit together with each concept filling in a piece of a puzzle from the Thema Mundi. Use the word sign, and you are buried in secondary intentionality and you will see trees, but no forest. Nominalism is akin to Alzheimer's disease and will rob you of direct connections to what you are trying to understand.

One of the things I like about the way Schmidt has explained things is that once you grasp the principles of metaphysical reality, using only logic one knows what one should look for in a chart and why and what each concept represents in that reality in the world. Astrologers are currently divorced from this kind of understanding and work with a chart as if it is an algebraic equation where you plug in your variables and get an answer, but have no proof for why one should use the equation and why you would use one equation over another. For instance, typically astrologers will look at lots, houses and planets and mix the 3 together as if homogenization is a sensible thing to do (Grapes and Apples produce "Grapples"). But in the Hellenistic framework, which of these you look at for a given topic depends upon the metaphysics that are invoked.

I don't particularly see a problem with using Heliac and Selenic if only for the sake of being consistent.

In Definitions and Foundations, Schmidt only scratches the surface of what he has told those of us who have attended his workshops. There is far more material that has not yet come out.
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