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Mercurys Detriment and fall in Pisces.
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margherita



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Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Tom, Mercury in Pisces or in Sagittarius does not mean the native is an idiot, but at least it's a red flag.

I saw many cases, in my experience native is not stupid, but short sighted in his/her decisions, or careless, something like that.

margherita
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Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it has been shown that the sign placement of Mercury is only one factor of the mind in natal work, so it's kind of useless to make pronouncements from that alone.

It is sometimes said that current-day traditionalist astrologers are using sign placement to the extreme and giving it exaggerated importance.

And then there's the difference of procedure for horary and natal astrology. In a horary chart it may be appropriate to use Mercury in Pisces as a description of a person's qualities, whereas in a natal chart the Moon and Asc & its lord also need to be considered. From what I can see, horary relies on and effectively uses a stock of physical and character descriptions. Could the recent resurgence of horary astrology be contributing to a heavy-handed use of sign placement in natal astrology? The descriptive tools of the horary approach seem to be making for overly confident natal astrologers who too methodically explain factors A B and C in the birth charts of complex human beings. In modern or New Age astrology you don't find this 'Mercury in Pisces as dimwit' problem. Those distant cousins of traditionalist astrologers (as viewed by the traditionalists) may be more correct – and kinder. Confused
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margherita



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Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirk wrote:
In a horary chart it may be appropriate to use Mercury in Pisces as a description of a person's qualities, whereas in a natal chart the Moon and Asc & its lord also need to be considered.


As many have already told in this thread traditionally qualities of mind are given by Moon and MERCURY.

Myself in the previous post took my definitions from Ptolemy.
He is very explicit in saying that a Mercury in a bad condition - whatever it is, but I believe detriment could be easily classified as bad- is not good for mind.

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Mark
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Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Margherita wrote:
Quote:
Mercury in Pisces or in Sagittarius does not mean the native is an idiot, but at least it's a red flag. I saw many cases, in my experience native is not stupid, but short sighted in his/her decisions, or careless, something like that.


Ok then. Do remember to make that point if you attend a workshop with Robert Hand (Mercury in Sag) or Bernadette Brady (Mercury in Pisces) Very Happy

Mark
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Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speaking of Rob Hand, here is something he wrote back in 2000 about his Mercury in Sagittarius, found at StarIq.com. [ http://www.stariq.com/Main/Articles/P0001767.HTM ] I have no idea what he thinks about it now, but surely he would point out the need to factor in the Moon and Asc. Wink

Quote:
I have Mercury in Sagittarius, which is its detriment. This is supposed to make my Mercury weak, in theory. Yet here I am, making a living writing, lecturing and doing astrology which is traditionally a Mercurial activity. But I do have some traditional detrimented Mercury problems. My handwriting is terrible, my level of manual and digital dexterity is quite low (according to tests) and I have always had some problems keeping things organized. What is going on here?
The answer seems to be that my Mercury effects divide along the lines of whether or not what I am doing requires my being fully present and conscious. When I am being conscious and intentional, everything Mercurial not only works, but works very well. I am actually known for doing things that are very Mercurial indeed. And when I am not being conscious, the sloppier effects of Mercury in Sagittarius become evident.

He follows that with some thoughts on Mercury in Pisces.

In the previous paragraph he had written:

Quote:
Detriment and fall do not really weaken a planet. It is more our problem. We are more creative with these planets when we are being conscious beings and less creative when we are less conscious. The planet in fact is actually dignified. It is ourselves that create the debility.


This probably won't appeal to those who a prefer a more deterministic astrology. Smile
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Estebon_Duarte



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Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it is interesting to note that whenever someone mentions Rob Hand or his work they attach "I don't know what he thinks now" about this or that theory. And they are correct! Mr. Hand has changed theories to the point of absurdity. I had a close friend get a reading from him a few years ago and he was using Whole Sign Houses, Outer Planets and ignoring the angles!
Someone who speaks (and writes) their mind adamantly and then changes it, sometimes to a full 180, is a product of a Mercury in Sagittarius.
Also the way he described not intelligence but the processing of information is the effect of Mercury and not just a persons understanding.
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Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
it is interesting to note that whenever someone mentions Rob Hand or his work they attach "I don't know what he thinks now" about this or that theory. And they are correct! Mr. Hand has changed theories to the point of absurdity.


Just for the fun of it I came up with an 'Almuten of Mind' calculation for Solar Fire which simplistically adds up points for the Asc, its lord, Mercury and the Moon, which gives a planet that has the most credentials as Big Boss of the Mind.

For Mr. Hand I get Mars – 22, Jupiter – 12; Moon – 11 (all the others are way behind with 3 or less). And that is quite interesting because in his chart the Moon next applies conjunct Mars and then trine the 1st house Jupiter – at the time of his birth all three are within orb of aspect. Add all that changeability, energy and outreach to his fluctuating Cardinal Cancer Ascendant and you can see that the man's mind was meant to move on (great alliteration, Kirk). Moon and Mars in Scorpio adds a good dose of fixity, so I don't think he's facile or flighty about it. Could his combust Mercury be a factor? I'm still trying to figure out what to do with those things – happen to have one myself.

Rob Hand
Dec 5, 1942
7:30 pm
Plainfield, NJ

Asc; 12 CAN 21
Rated: A


It's interesting to watch how people's ideas and thoughts change and adapt; you just have to keep in mind when they stated something and how it may stand in relation to their current position. The ones who have to stand ground and continually defend as the truth what they've said or written in the past are considerably more annoying. Unfortunately, there seems to be the belief that our thoughts and ideas should develop in a straight line toward a final intentionally established goal, with Step 2 obediently following Step 1, which is then dutifully followed by Step 3.


Quote:
Also the way he described not intelligence but the processing of information is the effect of Mercury and not just a persons understanding.

Maybe Mercury should be thought of more as a computational device. They don't understand anything, but give out a lot of information for us to understand.
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yuzuru



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Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Detriment and fall do not really weaken a planet. It is more our problem. We are more creative with these planets when we are being conscious beings and less creative when we are less conscious. The planet in fact is actually dignified. It is ourselves that create the debility.


Great example of how mercury in detriment can make the thought process confuse!
Razz

Just kidding Lala Happy
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Estebon_Duarte



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Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yuzuru wrote:
Quote:
Detriment and fall do not really weaken a planet. It is more our problem. We are more creative with these planets when we are being conscious beings and less creative when we are less conscious. The planet in fact is actually dignified. It is ourselves that create the debility.


Great example of how mercury in detriment can make the thought process confuse!
Razz

Just kidding Lala Happy



funny, i thought the same thing!
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PFN



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Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd like to throw some considerations on this...

You can not reduce everything to Mercury... actually, there are four planets that take up this function in my opinion, in order to form a whole.

They are Mercury, Moon, Jupiter and the Sun (the Sun is less important, but important nonethless).

Let's take Mr. Hand chart as an example. His comunicative skills are ok, but the consistency of that is not. Now, why is that? I believe that is because of his poor Mercury. That is mitigated by some extent because it's conjunct Venus and is in a sign of Jupiter (he has a good Juiter). Allright, so here comes the important part: Jupiter. Although astrology is considered a mercurial activity, that's so cause Mercury is responsible for such things as acting, perfoming, discussing, convincing, rationalizing and so on. It's a spiritual idea brought to the fore in a reasonable, material way. Now, what is the form that it will take? Heath Ledger had a Mercury in Pisces, so does Susan Boyle. It means that it is commited to planets such as Jupiter and Venus in their cases. The Venusian outcome of it is pretty obvious in both cases. Now, the planet responsible for knowledge is not Mercury, as a matter of fact, it is traditionally Jupiter (as it signifies books, not because of form, but because of the content). And in Hand's chart, Jupiter is very well placed, in a tight trigon with Mars, that trigons the MC in Pisces. His Mars is in Scorpio, furthermore, the Moon, ruler of the AC is commited to it, and the Moon is in a tight trigon to the AC. So, all in all, this means that Hand actually has the knowledge which made him famous. Still, his Mercury in fact hinders him, would it be better placed and his theories could actually be less messy and we would not have to dig so much on things that actually do not hold ground among others that do. Another trait of Hand is the visionary belief that computer's could do the work of an astrologer. We know that's not possible, but he actually tried to make that come true. Mercury acting logical in a sign that has an intuitive and subjectivity form such as Sagittarius. His Mercury there represents a missplaced, profound knowledge, that belongs to Jupiter, and delves not on numbers and computers, but on morals, religion, ethics, spirituality, nature and deep understanding, representing the other side of this coin. It's not hard to see why astrology is so enticing for people with strong Pisces and Sagittarius.

My sister has a retrograde Mercury in Sagitarius and she can be pretty logical, but she can not really understand deep emotional motivations or bring a degree of subjective understanding to it, since her Jupiter is in Capricorn. And that's interesting, cause a Mercury in Sagittarius can actually make someone like a robot, straight and logical to a point that sees only cause and consequence, disregarding the inbetween, the experience that leads to that, failing to see that sometimes the same/different attitudes can lead to different/equal outcomes.

So, my point is, Jupiter is often, actually a key to understand how a Mercury can be weak and still a person can be intelligent. And let's not forget accidental dignity as well. You can be a composer with brilliant ideas and poor playing skills (Wagner - probably good Venus, not so good Mercury) or a carpenter really skilled for practical purposes but with zero creativity (hence the need of a designer).

So, a Jupiter and Mercury could indicate an astrologer that is actually a con artist, since he will have Mercurial ability to back the demands of being an astrologer, but not the deep knowledge that lights the path to truth or reality (good Mercury, bad Jupiter).

The same reasoning applies to the Sun/Moon pair, since the Moon reveals the emotions/subjectivity and the Sun is the ego/reason that drives the person. And they can be in conflict or in harmony, getting in each other's way or not.

Just to end this, I'll give a final example. I have a colleague that has a Mercury in Pisces in the first house. He is not dumb or anything, since his Mercury is not afflicted except by sign position (I do believe that sign position alone does not create any aberration). His Jupiter is in Taurus, so he is not bright. But for each test he has to do on the university, it's a torment for him, compared to his fellow students. He spends afternoon after afternoon studying, trying to put eveything together. He is slow to speak, even though he is not wrong when opening his mouth (not bright either). It's a part of intelligence that gets compromised for him. He is a good person though. On the other hand, another friend of mine with Mercury in Gemini is cunning, sweet talker, smart and good at acting. But her Jupiter in Gemini, Mars in Cancer and Moon in Scorpion produces a egoistical rush (she has no foresight, since she only lives for the moment's need. There's little commitment of her to anything, so she doesn't build anything, even if she is able to do it). So although intelligent, she is shallow.


Last edited by PFN on Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:28 am; edited 6 times in total
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margherita



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Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PFN wrote:

Let's take Mr. Hand chart as an example. His comunicatives skills are ok, but the consistency of that is not. Now, why is that? I believe that is because of his poor Mercury. That is mitigated by some extent because it's conjunct Venus and is in a sign of Jupiter. Allright, so here comes the important part: Jupiter..


I vote for Jupiter too in Hand case, which is in the first house in exaltation even if retrograde.

Moon and Mercury are not linked by any aspect, Moon in its fall and Mercury in detriment, but they are kept together by Jupiter in some way, because Mercury is in Jupiter sign and Moon in Jupiter term, at least I cannot see any other congruency, but I just gave a look to the chart in Astrodatabank so I can easily miss something.

margherita
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mattG



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Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like the sister of PFN I have a retrograde Mercury in Sag and I consider myself logical in contrast to others I work with.I am beginning to form an idea that if we do take Mercury to indicate mind then perhaps its phase is more of an indication than its sign. In an article on this site there is a suggestion that a mercury at inferior conjunction points to lack of wisdom.
Did Margherita point out something similar about phase in Tractatus Sphaerae 1290ev?

Of course you could see my Merc as a red flag and wisely ignore me. Confused

Matt
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margherita



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Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

matt23z wrote:
In an article on this site there is a suggestion that a mercury at inferior conjunction points to lack of wisdom.
Did Margherita point out something similar about phase in Tractatus Sphaerae 1290ev?

Of course you could see my Merc as a red flag and wisely ignore me. Confused

Matt


Well, I surely wrote that Mercury phases are important and the inferior conjunction is worse than upper, but I cannot remember the book you mentioned, maybe it was quoted by someone else?

Anyway I'm not in war with Sagittarius/Pisces Mercury, my sister has Sagittarius Mercury and surely she is not a stupid, she has a university degree in mathematics, but I don't know how to explain, sometimes she is very unattentive to her words, she does not think before talking. Many of my friends noticed this.

margherita
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CJ



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Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If one takes the person with the signs ruled by the luminaries at the top and the signs connected to Saturn (excrement) at the bottom and then looks at exaltations Jupiter would be connected to the head (wisdom, inspiration), Mercury to the throat (cunning, logic, speech), Moon and Saturn to the heart (relations, affections but also aloofness, envy and hate), the Sun to the solar plexus (self-identity, assertiveness), Venus to the genital organs and Mars to the lowest region (most physical in both Tantra and Kabbalah, survival, competition). One possible scheme, maintains Sun=solar plexus and maybe improves on some others compared to the Aries, Taurus... scheme. Maybe not to everyone's taste though (but the ancients also in Egypt at least were concerned with things like this).
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johannes susato



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Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps when we see the chart we are able to discover the role of Mercury?
http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?wgid=wgeJwljkELwjAMhX-Ntwht1zG05CAIigcRRTxntm7FtcrWUfbvTZFACO898r3s3x6V6QKSNNHikaKF66d1Y4IANUgFcqPL2lYCep2hmzMIuAzk48u7wa6UOJ_gfttBo7OqQYtYNTBzhseQbSMFh_-XnC2AolpKDmsW9u7pApt8FpJp0_LlRiH1SCmbflpwLc04oXwcft7jNQA

Johannes
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