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Mercurys Detriment and fall in Pisces.
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NiteOwl



Joined: 07 Oct 2009
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Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:47 pm    Post subject: Mercurys Detriment and fall in Pisces. Reply with quote

Dignity is said to be the planets power to act right?



To be frank I have seen people that have Mercury in Pisces and do not match the perverted weak mind sets that classical authors dictate. In fact I have seen a couple of very good astrologers with this placment as well (one of them has mercury in the 12th house as well). Im confused on why this is so. Can the receptions and aspects from other planets counter essential dignitys weaknesses? Confused
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Olivia



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Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's an oversimplification to say that Mercury in Pisces causes a perverted, weak mind. Ancients were a lot like moderns in that if a modern wants to show a messed-up Mars they'll look at a chart like Hitler or Ted Bundy - the extreme cases. The assumption was never that everyone who had that particular planetary debility was an extreme case, though.

So I'll oversimplify a bit here, too.

Debility can be rendered quite a lot by a benefic in good dignity in aspect to Mercury. So say Merc is conjunct Venus (exalted in Pisces), or trine Jupiter in Cancer (Jupiter's exaltation), or Moon in Cancer (rulership), or sextile Moon in Taurus (exaltation) - you get the idea. Is it conjunct Archernar or Fomalhaut or another helpful fixed star? That will do some good, too. Is Mercury angular or cadent?

Look at which houses Mercury rules, and the house that it's found in. That will show you where the problems are most likely to express, and where the disappointments will be found - things just won't happen, or won't happen the way they ought in those areas of life. There may be 'Mercury problems' of the stereotypical variety, too, but usually not to the point of being feeble-minded. Maybe the person doesn't listen well, and that gets them into trouble, or hears what they want to hear, or is absent-minded, etc. You really need the whole chart.

I've got a peregrine, combust, afflicted, retrograde Mercury that's somewhat rendered by mutual reception with Jupiter, even though Jupiter is retrograde, too, but the reception is some help. Still have Mercury problems - but not feeble-mindedness.

You really have to look at the whole chart, and most people's lives don't fall into the extremes.
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yuzuru



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Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

besides what olivia already told you, which is very important, you shouldn´t also confuse mercury as natural ruler of the mind with the personality, which is given by the ruler of the manners
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Estebon_Duarte



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Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think one of the misconceptions of a debilitated Mercury is that the native is ignorant to some degree. This isn't necessarily what a "feeble" or "weak" mind can infer.
I've noticed that a debilitated Mercury (especially by sign) can create someone who cannot be bold in their communication or is easily persuaded, a push-over of sorts.
You can have an enormous capacity for understanding and learning, but not be able to write cleanly or speak without stammering. These are the signs of a debilitated Mercury.
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###



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Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In considering the chart native's mind I think we need to start with the First House. In The Houses Deb writes on page 63:
Quote:
Older sources note its influence upon the intellect, the way the mind works, and speech. In general, the first house represents the focal point for the personality and manner of expression.


On page 85 of Ibn Ezra's The Beginning of Wisdom as translated by Meira Epstein:
Quote:
[The First House] denotes life, the body, speech, the mind, fruitfulness (fertility), the beginning of all action, and the thoughts on one's mind.


This quote gives a sense of the thoughts and intentions behind the actions – the mind as stimulus and instigator. The power is in the First House.

Maybe astrologers have become too free with Mercury and allowed it to stand alone as “mind”. The Moon and Mercury should perhaps always be considered together – Mercury, as rational thought, arranging the images (imagination) provided by the Moon, and the Moon providing material for Mercury to work with. Their joint project then gets put into action by the Ascendant. (OK, I could be wrong – I'm still figuring this out). The old sources do talk about considering the relationship between the Asc, Moon & Mercury.

Here's Morin on the First House (Astrologia Gallica, Book XXII, page 242, tr. Holden):
Quote:
Life, temperament, state of health, moral nature, mental qualities.


What we sometimes can tend to throw into a heap as 'mind' here becomes clarified through the differentiation between moral nature and mental qualities.

So I would see Mercury in Pisces as an incomplete and partial indication of the overall quality of mind and intellect.
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Estebon_Duarte



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Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirk wrote:

Maybe astrologers have become too free with Mercury and allowed it to stand alone as “mind”. The Moon and Mercury should perhaps always be considered together – Mercury, as rational thought, arranging the images (imagination) provided by the Moon, and the Moon providing material for Mercury to work with. Their joint project then gets put into action by the Ascendant. (OK, I could be wrong – I'm still figuring this out). The old sources do talk about considering the relationship between the Asc, Moon & Mercury.

.



I agree, that is generally how I delineate the native's emotional/rational state (Moon/Mercury) and how they present those planets relationship in the world (Asc). The Moon and Mercury's relations by disposition and aspect with each other and other planets give good depth in describing a persons conscious and subconscious mind, appetites, inclinations and rational understanding along with how others respond.
If Mercury was in Pisces, peregrine/un-aspected in a cadent house with no dignity in the Ascendent I wouldn't make a judgement call on the native's intelligence, you still have to consider Jupiter (amongst other things). Besides, intelligence is decided mostly by ones schooling, so these are 3rd/9th house matters as well.
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Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Estebon,

Quote:
Besides, intelligence is decided mostly by ones schooling, so these are 3rd/9th house matters as well.


In searching for material on the 1st house and 'mind' I came across this from Al-Biruni, but decided at the time to not include it because it didn't seem to directly address the issue of mind:
Quote:
[The 1st house signifies] Soul, life, length of life, education, native land.


I had never noticed that mention of education before. I now read on page 12 of Deb's book:
Quote:
Traditional descriptions of the ascendant claim it represents 'life, formation of character and appearance'.


I had underlined “formation of character” some time ago but managed to forget about it. Formation of character fits well with “education”. The focus seems to be on the early life.

Oh, and we should also remember that the First House is the joy of Mercury. And come to think of it – the Third House as the joy of the Moon may be telling us something too. Confused
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Estebon_Duarte



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Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The joys of the Moon and Mercury are an interesting consideration...
I have mostly been using Abu 'Ali Al-Khayyat's direction on "The Native's Quality of Mind" ("The Judgements of Nativities" Holden trans. Chap.5 pg.7);

Quote:
"When you want to know the habits of mind of the native, look at the Lord of the Asc. and at Mercury, which is the significator of the power of understanding, of language, and of speech."


it is here that base delineations are given for the simple placement in mobile, common or fixed signs. Though after this consideration is given not only to the Ascendant ruler...

Quote:
"Besides this, whichever one of the planets is allotted the rulership of the chart has its own definite and separate significations over the things of the mind..."


but to the planets Mercury applies to as well...

Quote:
"Moreover, it is worth while to observe its (Mercury's) application with the rest of the planets because it readily joins together with them."


So while it seems that Mercury alone is taken as the indicator of Mind for the native by simple essential dignity, there is actually a layered delineation based on Mercury, the Ascendant and its lord, the disposition and relationship between them as well as the essential and accidental dignities and debilities...

Quote:
"Truly, this investigation of manliness or effeminacy, strength or weakness, increase or decrease, in the qualities of mind of the native depends especially upon the natures and qualities of the signs, viz. on the sex, strength, weakness, [and] increase of the signs in which the aforesaid significators of the mind are found. And this is the knowledge of the description of the quality of the mind and character of the native."


now I delineate these things based on the teaching of my mentor, R.Zoller, who uses the Ascendant as the native's Primary Motivation, the Moon as the native's appetites, thoughts and dreams; and Mercury as the mental faculties. They're relations are perfect indicators of those things that Modern Astrologers (and usual clients) look for; Psychological, Emotion delineations.

-Estebon
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NiteOwl



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Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah! ok. Thank You everyone for taking time to reply,appreciate it. I think I fell into that trap of drawing meaning from one isolated factor, rather than the chart as a whole. You have all given food for thought.
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Tom
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Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
To be frank I have seen people that have Mercury in Pisces and do not match the perverted weak mind sets that classical authors dictate.


I've never seen a classical author make this statement or one like it about Mercury in Pisces. In the first place, there are few classical "cookbooks" where this sort of thing would be present. That being said, a more general unfavorable viewpoint would be expressed as something like Mercury ill dignified, or poorly placed. While he is poorly placed in Pisces it is true as those above pointed out, that it takes more than that to make a dolt. I think Mercury combust would be a bigger problem for the older authors than Mercury in Pisces (or Sagittarius for that matter).

The other thing to keep in mind when reading older texts is that they deal in extremes. So do modern texts for that matter. A textbook is designed to teach, and definite, clear-cut specific examples are easier for the student to grasp than more subtle examples. It is legitimate that Mercury in Pisces should raise a red flag. It is not legitimate that it should be automatically assigned the status of idiot. Perversions belong to Venus anyway.

Tom
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yuzuru



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Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like with everything, there is no easy answer... there are people with mercury in pisces that will be bright, dumb, stupid, etc....


What I do think is that mercury in detriment people usually are not keen of the deductive method... they usually will start by the conclusion and work their way untill the premises...

some of the people seem to have complexes of intelectual superiority/inferiority, but I am not sure if this is widely appliable.
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Estebon_Duarte



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Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

while it can be agreed that blanket statements about intellect and mind made based on Mercury's placement in a certain sign are incomplete. I must say that a person's Mercury is one of the first things I look at after the rising sign.
Aside from the mental faculties, Mercury often (for me) shows how a person facilitates information and the way they handle personal exchanges. These things are important when first meeting a client, or handling the chart of someone close to you.
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yuzuru



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Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi, estebon
could you give us any example on how the mercury of a client could influence the way you give information in a consultation?
thanks
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TC



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Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi all!
I think that Merc in Pisc gets a bad rap BECAUSE those who have it do not necessarily think "logically", instead psychic influences intervene, so those who are linear thinkers have diffiiculty grasping that linear and logical are not equitable; instead they are equitable PATHS. Albert Einstein's words and thoughts come to mind, although, he has tropical MC in Pisces, tropical Mercury in Aries...
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johannes susato



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Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At least one quote of our ancients, very critical in respect of Mercury not only in Pisces but in Cancer and Scorpio too. William Lilly in CA, p. 545:

"Signes of corrupt or simple understanding.

[...] Mercury in watry signes, usually without the aspect of one of the Fortunes, shewes an Idiot: and if in those Signes Saturn afflict him, the Native stuts, or hath an impediment in his speech. Probatum;[...]"

Johannes
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