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Intercepted signs in classical astrology

 
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mirage



Joined: 08 Oct 2009
Posts: 3

Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:05 am    Post subject: Intercepted signs in classical astrology Reply with quote

Hey all,

Could anyone explain to me briefly how does classical astrology interpret intercepted signs, please? What's the basic idea?

I haven't paid much attention to this phenomenon before, but lately I'm trying to pierce my MC and 10th house, where I have Leo intercepted (Virgo Sun in the 11th house).
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astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 469

Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello mirage,

I am pretty sure that there are many opinions over this. A couple that I can remember offhand:

1. Intercepted signs do not matter. This is true for astrologers who use whole sign house system exclusively. The tenth sign from ascendant is the tenth house. There will be no intercepted signs/planets in this system.

2. Many "traditonal" astrologers (including me) use both whole sign houses system and a dynamical house system (any other house system that the astrologer favors e.g. Prophyry, Alcabitius, Regiomaontanus, Campanus, Placidus, etc.). How do they handle this interception problem? Well, I do not know! I can tell you how I handle though.

If you have MC in a different sign from the tenth sign from ASC, the two signs should be included in the delineation of your profession. For example, if you have Leo as the tenth sign form ASC and you MC is in Virgo, both Virgo and Leo have something to contribute in the delineation of your career. However, this must be interpreted with the planet that rules your profession.

As mentioned before, the tenth sign from ascendant still gives information about a person's career. The three triplicity rulers of the tenth sign from ascendant (not the tenth house using the other house system!) tell us more about career esp. the first triplicity ruler which governs the profession itself (though some ancient astrologers say it governs your status as well) and the third triplicty ruler which governs more of the stability of career/profession. This method can be found in Bonatti and a few of the arabic astrologers.

However, if you keep on reading the materials from greek sources as well as some of the arabic authors (including Bonatti), you'll find that they seem to prefer angular planet(s) especially the three professional caste giving planets Mars, Mercury and Venus to represent your planet of profession. When they say angular in these cases, they refer to angular according to any of those dynamic house system (not whole sign). In modern Hellenistic astrology, the angles according to dynamic house system produces planets that are goaded towards activity i.e. busy. It is their theroem that a "busy" planet is one candidate of planet of praxis ("wnat one does") - the modern equivalent of profession. In Medieval astrology, planets that are near to the angles are the most important planets to consider for magisterium or profession (see for example Bonatti). Only then you look for planets that are in the 1st/10th/4th/7th signs from ascendant (whole sign house system). Angular by whole sign but not by dynamic house system does not make the planet "busy" but it is still powerful. If profession giving planet is identified, it is then delineated with the MC and rulers of the tenth sign from ASC.

Why the three planets (Mars, Mercury, Venus) only? Because they were associated with the three professional castes in ancient times (Mars - military and skills i.e. manual skills, Venus - artisans and Mercury - scholar or merchant). These 3 are the most important but not the only planets considered (as Paulus of Alexandria made clear in his Introductory Matters). Jupiter is usually left out because it governs the noble class (which in ancient times didn't have to really do anything because they own the land). Saturn is also left out because it governs the outcaste (when Saturn is afflicted) or trustees (if Saturn is not afflicted).

In modern times, Jupiter may be used to govern those professions that make you mingle with the people of high society e.g. an honored professor, an esteemed writer, etc. Saturn can be used to indicate managers of others affairs (the rank of which is determined from the dignities of Saturn).

So, check angular planets. The most angular maybe the one governing profession. Delineate this planet with the ruler(s) of the tenth sign i.e. domicile (this gives more of profession), exaltation (this gives more of status and rank) and triplicitiy rulers (esp. the first and third) to give a better description of the profession. If the sign of MC is not the same as the sign of the tenth from ascendant, you'll have to consider both signs as the modifying factors in delineating profession (i.e. the keywords of both signs should be used in delineating profession).
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James E.



Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Posts: 105
Location: Canada

Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

astrojin wrote:
2. Many "traditonal" astrologers (including me) use both whole sign houses system and a dynamical house system (any other house system that the astrologer favors e.g. Prophyry, Alcabitius, Regiomaontanus, Campanus, Placidus, etc.). How do they handle this interception problem? Well, I do not know! I can tell you how I handle though.

If you have MC in a different sign from the tenth sign from ASC, the two signs should be included in the delineation of your profession. For example, if you have Leo as the tenth sign form ASC and you MC is in Virgo, both Virgo and Leo have something to contribute in the delineation of your career. However, this must be interpreted with the planet that rules your profession.


Tell me astrojin, how do you handle transits?

Using your example of Leo in the 10th place and a Virgo Mc, will transits in the 10th place (or to the ruler(s) of the 10th place) activate professional events as well as transits to the Virgo Mc or planets in Virgo?

james
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Labalance



Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Posts: 122

Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I may be looking at the wrong chart but I only see two triplicity rulers? I hate to ask what is probably an obvious question but what is or where can I find the three triplicity rulers? Thanks
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mirage



Joined: 08 Oct 2009
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Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@astrojin

Thank you very much for taking your time and answering my question. I've really had no idea how traditional astrologers approach career interpretation.

To be honest I've never really considered the whole sign house system before, so I have no "feel" for it.

In my case Leo intercepted doesn't play any role acording to the theory you mention, since the 10th sign from the AC is equal MC sign, Cancer.
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Labalance



Joined: 02 Oct 2006
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Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oops, never mind I found it!
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Tom
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Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

None of the traditional authors I've read seem bothered by a planet in an intercepted sign. If Leo is intercepted in 10, any planet in Leo is treated as any other 10th house planet. Morin would use both ruling planets in interpretation particularly if 27 or more degrees were on the cusp preceding the intercepted sign. In effect the house would have two rulers, but priority would be given to the ruler of the sign on the cusp. Intercepted signs are no big deal.

Tom
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mirage



Joined: 08 Oct 2009
Posts: 3

Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for the detailed information, Tom.

Indeed my MC is 29°43 Cancer, so the 27° rule is useful, not that I wasn't careful when interpreting MC before.
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astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
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Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello James,

Quote:
Tell me astrojin, how do you handle transits?

Using your example of Leo in the 10th place and a Virgo Mc, will transits in the 10th place (or to the ruler(s) of the 10th place) activate professional events as well as transits to the Virgo Mc or planets in Virgo?


If MC and tenth sign from ASC are the same, there is no contest. Rulers of MC and tenth sign of ASC are the same). If the tenth sign of MC and MC are different, then we have a problem.

The following discussion assumes that MC is in a different sign from the tenth sign of ASC:-

As I mentioned before, both signs should be considered when describing the nature of profession especially when there are no planets near MC and in the tenth sign from ASC. For activation via transits though, the MC is given more emphasis. Praxis (what one does) is very much about finding a planet/point that is busiest in a person's life. Hence, like the determination of hyleg, the houses according to dynamic house system (not whole sign house system) are more telling when it comes to profession. If you have a planet (say Mercury) located in the tenth sign but another planet (say Venus) very near to MC Venus would have more say on the native's profession i.e. she is more determined towards profession. When Venus and/or MC are activated via transit, profession will be affected. When the tenth sign from ASC is activated, other matters governed by the tenth sign i.e. mother, status, and things governed by Mercury (because Mercury is in the tenth from ASC) will be activated as well as profession. This theory is also in line with Bonatti's method of finding a planet that governs magisterium (profession) because Bonatti would start with angular planet (angular according to dynamic house system - he probably used Alchabitius house system).

In short, activation of MC is given more emphasis for profession than the tenth sign from ASC if they happen to be in different signs. MC is still the "highest point" of the sun (which is correlated to profession) whereas the sign of the tenth from ASC gives us many topics in life e.g. mother, status, etc. However, for MC to determine a native's profession, the domicile or exalted lord of MC must aspect MC by whole sign. If both domicile and exalted rulers of MC do not aspect MC, the activation of MC will not bring about conspicuous effects on profession.

Using Tony Blair's chart (Alchabitius house system), the MC is 26 Capricorn but tenth sign from ASC (which is in Gemini) is Pisces. Saturn (domicile lord of MC) is in Libra, hence Saturn squares MC (small orb). The MC is then activated because its lord aspects it. Hence, when MC is activated via transit, it can give information about his profession/career. When Uranus conjuncts MC in 1994, Tony Blair became leader of the opposition due to sudden death of John Smith (how very Uranus!).

I will talk about his prime ministership and the tenth sign from MC (where his Lot of Fortune is also located) later. It can be seen clearly that his "prime" time (both literally and figuratively) using zodiacal releasings of Lot of Spirit.
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James E.



Joined: 15 Jun 2008
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Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Once again Astrojin you have provided me with the exact words I needed to clear up this confusion I was experiencing.

I have been working with both WSH and Alcabitius in delineations but I could not get a clear sense of how to work with this Mc/10th place situation when both are in different zoidia/image.

Thank you very much for your thoughts on this matter.

james
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mattG



Joined: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 345
Location: Greenwich UK

Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes it was most clear and helpful to have an example. I look forward to the next post.

thanks

Matt
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1464

Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom quoted Morin as follows:
Tom wrote:
None of the traditional authors I've read seem bothered by a planet in an intercepted sign. If Leo is intercepted in 10, any planet in Leo is treated as any other 10th house planet. Morin would use both ruling planets in interpretation particularly if 27 or more degrees were on the cusp preceding the intercepted sign. In effect the house would have two rulers, but priority would be given to the ruler of the sign on the cusp. Intercepted signs are no big deal.
Tom

Al Biruni, The Book of Instruction . . . , Translation by R. Ramsay Wright, p. 63, No. 475, advances an interesting dissenting opinion:
474. WEHN HOUSE FORMED OF TWO SIGNS. When a house is formed of two signs, if these are about equally represented, the lords of the signs are also the lords of the house, if both are in aspect; if only one is in aspect it becomes the more important, while if both are inconjunct, that is superior which has the greater number of dignities. The victory must always be given to that one which has the highest number of degrees in the house.

As an intercepted sign will always have the highest number of degrees its lord will always be lord of the house teaches Al Biruni.

Johannes
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Tom
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Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Al Biruni's answer makes sense, but I would never expect that Morin read the Arab astrologers. He didn't care for them - to put it mildly. Thanks for the reference.

Tom
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PFN



Joined: 28 Dec 2008
Posts: 393
Location: Ouro Preto, Brasil

Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

johannes susato wrote:
The victory must always be given to that one which has the highest number of degrees in the house.

As an intercepted sign will always have the highest number of degrees its lord will always be lord of the house teaches Al Biruni.


Wow, that changes everything. Also, it alligns itself with the whole signs house system concept, since it respects more the idea. Obviously, that does not change the fact that the cusp is still the most sensitive point, but overrules the cusp's rulership authority. Any other traditional astrologer corroborates that?
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astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 469

Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello again,

Back to Tony Blair's chart as promised.

I don't have much time but I'll show the simplified version of using zodiacal releasings (aphesis) with profection.

Asc in 4Gem50
Tenth sign of Asc is Pisces
Lot of Fortune is 00Pis57 (the tenth sign from Asc)
Lot of spirit 08Vir43 (the 4th sign of Asc).

In Hellenistic astrology, releasings are usually done to the Lots esp. the Lot of Fortune (for the things that are bodily related, wealth and things that happened to us) and the Lot of Spirit (for "what one does" i.e. profession and status, what you impart upon the world). To check for one's status and pinnacle of profession (both of which are usually strongly correlated to each other in modern world), we release the Lot of Spirit. Releasing means going in the zodiacal direction beginning from the sign of the Lot itself and giving certain number of years/months/days/hours to each sign.

The most important time to check when releasing the Lot of Spirit is when the released Lot of Spirit arrives at the angular place (esp. the tenth sign) from the Lot of Fortune. The tenth sign from Lot of Fortune is the best place of “what you do” and status in your life and in many cases it is better than the tenth sign from Asc. For the discussion on the angular places relative to Asc vs. angular places relative to Lot of Fortune - see Valens' Anthology. [Note: When Lot of Fortune and Spirit are in the same sign, the sign following the Lot of Spirit is the sign to start with the releasing of Spirit].

Blair's Lot of spirit is in Virgo. His life will reach its prime when the released Lot of spirit arrives at Sagittarius (which is the tenth sign from Lot of Fortune). The period for each sign is the minor period of the planet that rules the sign. Minor periods of planets (Saturn 30 when ruling Aquarius 27 when ruling Capricorn, Jupiter 12, Mars 15, Sun 19, Venus 8, Mercury 20 and Moon 25). For primary releasing, the numbers refer to years, secondary releasing months, tertiary days and quaternary hours. I’ll show the primary releasing for this example as this can be done without having to resort to software. One thing though, it is advised to use the conversion of 360 days to 1 year when using the year association with the planetary minor periods.

So, in Blair’s case Lot of spirit is in Virgo (ruled by Mercury, ages 0 up to 20), then Libra, which is the sign following Virgo (ruled by Venus, ages 20 to "28"), then Scorpio (ruled by Mars, ages 28 to 43) then Sagittarius (ruled by Jupiter, ages 43 to 55). The ages (in years) are rough figures because the ages must be converted to modern ages by making the 1 year = 360 days conversion). The exact dates are as follows:

Lot of Spirit Releasing:

Sign______Start Date __Age____End Date_____Age
Virgo_____06-May-1953___0____21-Jan-1973__19.7
Libra_____21-Jan-1973__19.7__10-Dec-1980___27.6
Scorpio___10-Dec-1980__27.6__23-Sep-1995__42.4
Sagittarius_23-Sep-1995__42.4__22-Jul-2007___54.2

He became prime minister in 2 May 1997 to 27 June 2007 which is within the period when the released Lot of Spirit is in the tenth sign from Lot of Fortune i.e. Sagittarius. It is of course possible to calculate the secondary releasing by starting from Sagittarius (if you wish breakdown the Sagittarius period) and following the zodiacal signs giving months to the minor periods (instead of years) until the major Sag period is finished. For those who wish to venture into this, please be reminded that the signs that have large period (Cancer, Leo, Gemini, Virgo, Capricorn and Aquarius) will exhibit critical times called loosing of the bond. For more info, please refer to Ellen Black’s article in Project Hindsight website.
Rather than breaking the major releasing, I prefer to use Profection. We will profect his Jupiter to the tenth sign from the Lot of Fortune (Sagittarius). Why the tenth from Lot of Fortune? As stated above, it is the most elevated place of luck. Why Jupiter? Because Jupiter is the domicile ruler of his Lot of Fortune as well as the tenth sign from Asc. Remember that the starting point of profection (in this case Taurus – where natal Jupiter is) is for the first year of life (or age 0). Profected Jupiter reaches Sagittarius (tenth sign from Lot of Fortune) at ages 7, 19, 31, 43, 55, etc. But only at age 43, profected Jupiter would be in the period when the released Lot of Spirit is in the tenth sign from Lot of Fortune i.e. Sagittarius (shown above). Hence, at age 43 he would reach his greatest elevation. He did become prime minister just a few days before his 44th birthday.
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