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When we think we've got a judgement wrong...
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Pete



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 301
Location: Kinnelon, New Jersey, USA

Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2004 5:43 pm    Post subject: When we think we've got a judgement wrong... Reply with quote

How many of us at one time or another have looked at a horary and after much deliberation and even consultation delivered a judgement in which we've had the utmost confidence, only to find that ultimately our judgement was totally wide of the mark? We've returned to that horary time and time again and just been left feeling totally bemused because all the obvious factors that we've examined still offer the original judgement, even in the teeth of the actual outcome.
This has happened to me more than once, but the most glaring example of this occured about 18 months ago when I examined the following horary question:

"Will I see 'X' again?"
Feb.4th 2003
10.18 am GMT
Prenton, England.
53 N 22'
03 W 03

Asc: 7 Tau 41'
Moon: 20 Pis 05'

I was the querent, and following Lilly's rules on p.304 of C.A., I am ruled by the Asc, it's Lord, the Moon, and the planet the Moon last separated from, i.e. Mercury. The quesited ~ a lady ~ is ruled by the 7th, its Lord ( Mars ), and the planet the Moon next applies to, i.e. Saturn.
Venus and Mars are in M/R by term, but not applying to an aspect. Nor are the Moon and Mars, nor the Sun and Mars.
The Moon *does* apply to Saturn in just over 2 degrees, but this is by square without reception, and with the Moon peregrine and trapped in the 12th house, I saw no hope from that quarter. There are no significant translations or receptions, either, therefore I concluded that I wouldn't see her again and I considered that a pretty accurate appraisal of the horary.
What happened? Just under 3 months later we *did* meet again, and to say that I was dumbstruck is putting it mildly!
I've always felt that if an horary seems to give the "wrong" answer, it's more the fault of the astrologer missing something rather than the astrology itself; the answer is there if you look hard enough. So recently I checked this horary again, looking for the less obvious clue, but one which, nevertheless, might just be the key to the outcome. What I discovered was that Mars and Mercury are actually on each others' antiscion, or a degree and a half away, anyway. Now while this isn't perfect, and the orb doesn't fit the timing, it's the only contact that even suggests the correct outcome. Lilly considered antiscia to be valid contacts that can bring perfection, so I'm now left wondering if it was indeed this contact that showed the eventual meeting, and which I completely missed when I first examined the horary.
Does anyone have any further thoughts on this?
--
Cheers...
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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 566

Posted: Sat Jun 26, 2004 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pete,
I read your post with interest. There is one particular horary where I seemed to get the same result. If you go to the post titled "POST ANALYSIS - Seeking understanding of chart after the event" (or something of the sort, it's lower down in the forum but on this same page), my friend asked me two questions. One had to do with his job, which the horary predicted accurately. The 2nd question was whether he and this girl would become a couple again. Although I could not see any direct aspect that would indicate an affirmative, the fact of the matter is that right now they are very much a couple and stabilized in their relationship. If possible, you might want to take a look at the chart yourself and tell me what you think (but read the post as well, so you know the background of the situation). This is one horary that continues to puzzle me. It's link is:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=405


Quote:
What I discovered was that Mars and Mercury are actually on each others' antiscion

How do you figure out antiscion? What is antiscion? And where does Lilly mention it? I seem to have missed that. I have SolarFire and it does seem to print some data about antiscion for planets when you do a horary.pag. But I don't know much about its relevance.
Thanks.
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Pete



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 301
Location: Kinnelon, New Jersey, USA

Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If possible, you might want to take a look at the chart yourself and tell me what you think (but read the post as well, so you know the background of the situation). This is one horary that continues to puzzle me.


Hi Taurus,
I've examined the chart and on the face of it it does seem to present a puzzle with regard to the second question. There are no relevant antiscia contacts or parallels of declination so we have to rule those out. The mixed receptions between the Moon and Saturn and the Sun and Venus only show a mutual attraction and possibly a desire to meet up again, but without applying aspects the opportunity would seem to be lacking. I was stumped and then I had an idea: I checked the almuten rulerships of the 1st and 7th houses. The almuten ruler is that planet which holds the most dignities in a given degree of the zodiac, and here Mercury is almuten of the 1st - having dignity by term and face - and Mars is the almuten ruler of the 7th - having dignity by exaltation and face. Mercury and Mars are applying to a square aspect in just under a degree and Mercury is in the 7th house to boot.
Are we reaching here? Possibly, but the fact is that these two *are* back together and this is the only contact that could possibly hint at that outcome. Mercury and Mars hold the most dignities in the 1st/7th houses and they are about to come together. The mixed receptions show the mutual inclination and the square between the almuten rulers show the opportunity. I realise I'm being a bit controversial but if anyone can show another way the chart shows that they'll rekindle their relationship I'd be happy to hear it Smile

Quote:
How do you figure out antiscion? What is antiscion? And where does Lilly mention it? I seem to have missed that. I have SolarFire and it does seem to print some data about antiscion for planets when you do a horary.pag. But I don't know much about its relevance.
Thanks.


Well, having just come off the night-shift and not yet having a functioning brain, I've posted a link to an interesting article on both parallels of declination and antiscia. It's a little long-winded but stick with it, it gives some useful info on both.
I find that when two sigs form a connection via antiscion degree, the link seems to be somewhat indirect, possibly even covert or hidden. This was certainly true in my own case. I can't find where Lilly mentions it, but I'm pretty sure he does Smile
Here's the link:

http://www.jornal-astrologia.com/article_denlinger.htm

Hope it helps! Smile
Cheers...
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granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 1634
Location: California, USA

Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2004 5:47 pm    Post subject: I had an opposite experience Reply with quote

I was certain that I must be misreading the information in front of me, so I formed my discussion in questions as opposed to answers and to my complete astonishment I was seeing the information on the horoscope correctly... the chart indicated that the woman had just separated from a man who was now incarcerated and was detrimental to her, also that someone in law enforcement was protecting her and that she kept resisting this help and was putting herself in more danger. Turns out she had just broken up with a person who was currently sitting in a jail cell for fraud. Her ex husband a sherrif was doing his best to keep her safe and she was not listening to him and I gave her a good talking to. she was not as shocked as I that i saw that just from the transits. One of the reasons I love robert hands work so much. it was a pluto transit in her chart not a horary.

I might add the reason I looked at this chart in the first place is this woman was saying how Mercury must be retrograde because her life was so screwed up. I told her no, Mercury isn't retrograde right now, you must have some other issue going on... told her I'm an amatuer, but dog gone was that a wild reading! and I was shocked at the accuracy... looking at other peoples charts can be so illuminating.

I"m too used to reading a horary wrong to be surprised when I'm wrong about one, I'm much more excited when I get one right!

Granny Laughing
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Gina



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 44
Location: UK

Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2004 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

taurus7 wrote:


How do you figure out antiscion? What is antiscion? And where does Lilly mention it? I seem to have missed that. I have SolarFire and it does seem to print some data about antiscion for planets when you do a horary.pag. But I don't know much about its relevance.
Thanks.


Hi Taurus...Lilley mentions antiscions page 86 and 89 of CA.
"If the Querent should continue Rich" (page 89)

Gina.
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MarkF



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 523
Location: Outside Washington, DC

Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I looked at this chart and like you I would have said that there was no chance of the two of you becoming a couple.

But I have to ask what was at the heart of the question, versus what actually happened? I assume that this was a relationship question by the way you used the 7th house to signify the woman. When you said that you did meet the woman again, was this just a brief meeting or are the two of you a couple in the sense that you wanted to be? I'd say that while this chart doesn't show the two of you being a couple, it also wouldn't exclude the two of you meeting again. So did you just run into the woman in question again or did you become involved with her?

Overall I don't take the wording of a question literally. The chart will give the answer it wants to give you, and might not answer the question in precisely the way you want it to. In general this was a relationship question, whether the two of you would be romantically involved. Now of course all of this could be wrong if the two of you are involved and in that case I would just say that the chart is wrong.

I don't usually use the planet that the Moon applies to and separates from to signify people. I think that Lilly uses them in his examples dealing with marriage, not with just whether you'll date someone. So I wouldn't have used Mercury to represent you.

One thing you didn't mention was that your significator, Venus is just about to change signs. In fact it does so before the Moon can apply by square to it. Though there is just this one indicator like this, usually things like this indicate a change in your circumstances, whether in your inner life or outer circumstances.
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happygolucky



Joined: 28 May 2004
Posts: 35
Location: Scotland

Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarkF wrote:

But I have to ask what was at the heart of the question, versus what actually happened?


Yes surely the question that is asked is what you really are thinking not neccessarily the question you write down. What the overiding feeling is.
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Online Dating::Star Sign Compatibility


"Honesty's the Best Policy" - Miguel de Cervantes
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Pete



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 301
Location: Kinnelon, New Jersey, USA

Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I looked at this chart and like you I would have said that there was no chance of the two of you becoming a couple.


I agree, but the question I asked was: "will I see 'X' again?" I think you'll concur there's a big difference between the two questions. I had thought long and hard about how to word the question; about what was at the heart of it, and I concluded that unless we met again the relationship wouldn't be able to continue anyway, so actually meeting up together was of paramount importance, given that we live in different countries.

Quote:
When you said that you did meet the woman again, was this just a brief meeting or are the two of you a couple in the sense that you wanted to be?


We had been a couple for over a year and intended to eventually marry, but circumstances intervened and set our plans back rather drastically. The meeting was planned, but those plans weren't on the ground at all when the question was asked.

Quote:
I'd say that while this chart doesn't show the two of you being a couple, it also wouldn't exclude the two of you meeting again.


The last part of your statement is interesting. In what way do you see the chart as not excluding a meeting?

Quote:
In general this was a relationship
question, whether the two of you would be romantically involved. Now of
course all of this could be wrong if the two of you are involved and in
that case I would just say that the chart is wrong.


I can't go along with the idea that a horary can be wrong, to be honest. If I as the astrologer get the judgement wrong then the fault lies at my door, imo, and not at the door of astrology. That's one of the reasons why the 'Considerations Before Judgement' are so valuable: they send out a warning bell to the astrologer that something isn't quite kosher about the situation, or the way the question was put. Looking at this chart, the only warning bell I could hear was the lack of strong P.H.A., but having said that, the hour-ruler, Mercury, is angular, and rules the 2nd house of my finances, which was a big part of the problem.

Quote:
I don't usually use the planet that the Moon applies to and separates
from to signify people. I think that Lilly uses them in his examples
dealing with marriage, not with just whether you'll date someone. So I
wouldn't have used Mercury to represent you.


I agree with you about not usually using the applying/separating planets, but in this case I was convinced they were significant given the nature of the relationship and also because of the mutual reception between them, which described perfectly the mutual feeling between us at the time.
The lady came to England in late April '03 for four days and plans were re-laid to eventually get back together and continue with our original intention, but a year on those plans didn't materialise and we eventually separated. The only factor in the chart that described that meeting was the contact between the antiscia of Mars and Mercury, which I originally didn't spot.

Incidentally, my circumstances did change shortly after the question was posed. I moved out of my temporary accommodation and into my own flat, which I think is well shown by the movement of Venus (me) out of Sag' and into Capricorn, where she holds triplicity rulership.
Thanks very much for your feedback. Smile
--
Cheers....
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MarkF



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 523
Location: Outside Washington, DC

Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I agree, but the question I asked was: "will I see 'X' again?" I think you'll concur there's a big difference between the two questions. I had thought long and hard about how to word the question; about what was at the heart of it, and I concluded that unless we met again the relationship wouldn't be able to continue anyway, so actually meeting up together was of paramount importance


But the real question is still about whether the two of you will be in a relationship again. This chart says no, and that is what your experience is.

Again, the chart will not do your bidding for you. It won't give you an answer on demand, but will give you the advice you need at that time. The proof of that is this chart. It did not directly answer the question you wanted answered but it gave you its own answer to your situation - that whether you meet again briefly is not important, you still won't be able to get together with this woman in the way you wanted.

I don't think there are any signs in this chart that you might briefly meet up. I just meant that since a brief meeting was irrelevant to whether a romantic relationship would grow out of this, that there was a chance that you could meet her again. There are no aspects that say that, it was just a statement. The chart clearly says no romance, or even no long term friendship, but anythng else could be a possiblity.
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Pete



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 301
Location: Kinnelon, New Jersey, USA

Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But the real question is still about whether the two of you will be in a
relationship again. This chart says no, and that is what your experience
is.


I'm sorry Mark, but with respect, I don't think it's the astrologer's job to determine what the "real" question is, beyond an initial discussion with the querent, if it was felt that that was warranted. Since I was both querent and astrologer, I was very aware of what my immediate priority was. viz: whether she and I would ever see each other again. That was my question. My horary teacher taught me to simply answer the question as put and go no further, and I think that's good advice.

Quote:
The chart clearly says no romance, or
even no long term friendship, but anythng else could be a possiblity.


And if "anything else" includes a meeting, then the meeting should be shown in the chart, yes? However, in this chart there's no obvious sign that this will happen, yet meet we did. My question was "will I see her again?" If the answer was to be "yes but nothing will come of it", then I'd have expected to see application by opposition, with reception, and possibly translation of light. [ see C.A. p.125 ] Therefore I felt forced to look elsewhere for the contact that described the *meeting*, and I believe I found that in the antiscion contact between Mercury and Mars.
The romantic relationship had already grown and blossomed; it was in place at the time of the question. We did not, in fact, marry.
But that wasn't the question Smile

Cheers Mark...
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Deb
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Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If the answer was to be "yes but nothing will come of it", then I'd have expected to see application by opposition, with reception, and possibly translation of light. [ see C.A. p.125 ]


Hi Pete,

The Moon is separating from Mars (the woman), and is still within orb of its square. I would count its applying square to Venus (you), even though it doesn’t perfect until after Venus has changed signs, because it is already within orb. So the Moon is translating between Mars and Venus by square, but Venus changes signs first – does this relate to the fact that you changed residence between the question and the meeting?

Venus in the 9th describes you thinking about an overseas relationship (were you considering moving abroad, or do you think that merely reflects your thoughts were overseas at the time?) But because Venus is changing signs everything is about to change in a dramatic way, so whatever follows for Venus won’t have the same significance as the expectations at the time of the question.

The Moon’s translation is by square, so there are some difficulties involved. And since the Moon is in the 12th and its only other application is to the square of Saturn, which opposes the main significators, the outcome of any meeting will be negative, or a matter or closing things down. The Moon meets Saturn in just under 2 and a half degrees by retrograde motion, which seems to relate to the time of the actual meeting, which came as a surprise, or with the suddenness expected of retrograde applications, and brought reality home.

The Moon rules the 4th house, so I expect it was carrying some significance with regard to property or living arrangements, is that so? Mercury, as ruler of the 2nd house, Saturn in the 2nd, and the planets and points that relate to the 2nd house cusp are also relevant to the matter of finances, which you say was another important issue in this.

I understand what Mark is saying, that although you were asking about the potential of a meeting, the horary might have been answering you in broader terms, because what is very clear from the horary is that your situation is changing and the relationship is ending, so meeting or not, you understood from this that it was time to move on. But I actually think that this chart shows the meeting enquired about, and the circumstances around it, quite neatly. The issue of whether aspects count once one of the planets has crossed a sign border often gets brought up for discussion. So long as they are in orb at the time of the horary, I generally acknowledge them, but I expect the crossing of a sign threshold to symbolise an altered state or some kind of barrier being put up or removed.

(Sorry it’s a bit late in the day, but I thought I may as well drop the chart in since I’ve drawn it up anyway)

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Pete



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
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Location: Kinnelon, New Jersey, USA

Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Hi Pete,


Hi Deb...

Quote:
The Moon is separating from Mars (the woman), and is still within orb of its square. I would count its applying square to Venus (you), even though it doesn’t perfect until after Venus has changed signs, because it is already within orb. So the Moon is translating between Mars and Venus by square, but Venus changes signs first – does this relate to the fact that you changed residence between the question and the meeting?


Well yeah, I moved about 2 weeks after I asked the question. The meeting took place from April 28th to May 2nd.

I looked long and hard at that translation Deb, and finally concluded that the Moon wasn't translating from Mars to Venus after all: the Moon comes to the square of Saturn before that of Venus, so this is in fact a case of 'prohibition'. Saturn prevents the translation from taking effect, and Saturn rules the 10th house. This house represents her domestic circumstances, which one could certainly describe as Saturnian from her point of view! Saturn in the 2nd house also showed a serious lack of resources. Both of these factors played a major role in the struggle, and finally in the two of us not getting together ~ if it's true that the chart is showing the broader picture Confused

Quote:
(were you considering moving abroad, or do you think that merely reflects your thoughts were overseas at the time?)


Yes to both questions.

Quote:
The Moon’s translation is by square, so there are some difficulties involved. And since the Moon is in the 12th and its only other application is to the square of Saturn, which opposes the main significators, the outcome of any meeting will be negative, or a matter or closing things down. The Moon meets Saturn in just under 2 and a half degrees by retrograde motion, which seems to relate to the time of the actual meeting, which came as a surprise, or with the suddenness expected of retrograde applications, and brought reality home.


It was certainly a very bittersweet few days ( is my Cancer Moon showing? Smile ) and since then, and with hindsight, I've had cause to question her motives in coming here. She seemed perfectly sincere at the time and yet there were certain things that just didn't sit right, if you know what I mean. I think this is why I was so impressed by the antiscion contact between Mars and Mercury, given the reputation antiscia contacts have for "un-straightforwardness", shall we say?

Quote:
The Moon rules the 4th house, so I expect it was carrying some significance with regard to property or living arrangements, is that so?


Living arrangements most certainly, yes; being able to buy our own property.

Quote:
whether aspects count once one of the planets has crossed a sign border often gets brought up for discussion. So long as they are in orb at the time of the horary, I generally acknowledge them


Me too, and the "changed circumstances" scenario has invariably held up.
Thanks Deb ( and Mark ) for throwing this slippery ball around with me, your comments have certainly made me look at this horary with fresh eyes. I no longer see it as an enigma; now it is merely a total mystery! Razz

Cheers...
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Deb
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Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Such progress Smile

Well, prohibition can hinder or retard something, as well as prevent it from happening. (Otherwise you’d never consider any application of the Moon past its most immediate aspect). This horary seems to give you a valid description of the situation and how it played out, it just seems to be less relevant to the specific question you asked of it. To me it demonstrates the points that Dennis Elwell makes in his article A Modern Art of Horary which is what I think Mark is also referring to.

One of the reasons I don’t think we have to take the literal wording of the question too seriously is because of the constraints it puts on the ability to read a chart effectively, (that is, when we expect astrology to answer our questions exactly as we put them, rather than opening ourselves up to what the chart has to say in a wider context first, and then forming a judgement on that, and then through that – hopefully - the question itself and everything that pertains to it). In answer to your question ‘will we meet again?’ I think the horary replies ‘maybe, but what’s significant on a wider basis is that the relationship is failing and will be over soon if it isn’t already’.

I can see you are wanting a more definite answer to your more definite question. But just think about how confusing that might have been – to get a chart that shows your significators moving towards each other or giving other positive indications to answer ‘yes’ to your question. You would surely then have expected that there was still life in the relationship yet, and you maybe wouldn’t have made the changes you did make in your physical, mental or emotional state after reading this horary and assuming it was saying ‘no’. Of course it might be nice to have an applying opposition, but the planets can’t make oppositions to order, so you have to look at the whole mood of the horary moment and question ‘why is this issue of concern to me at this time, and what can astrology tell me of it?’. Otherwise the limits we place on astrology are such that a lot of charts will seem to be wrong, even though, in essence, they had something very valuable to impart.

I’m not trying to convince you Pete, just giving my opinion on this. It’s a very interesting horary and it’s especially interesting to look at it in the light of what happened afterwards because of the detail you’ve put into explaining the circumstances of the event. It shows that it’s always a lot more to consider than whether x will meet up with y; like you say here, there were financial implications, property implications, and a lot of other issues that were part of the consequence of this meeting. If this kind of information isn’t volunteered to the astrologer, it is very easy to miss the symbolism of the chart.

Anyway, sorry it didn’t work out but it sounds like you were well rid of her in the end. So, do you think that Mars being in her 2nd house meant she was primarily motivated by money, and was she as fiery and dramatic as Mars in Sag trine Jupiter in Aries suggests?
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Pete



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
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Location: Kinnelon, New Jersey, USA

Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
This horary seems to give you a valid description of the situation and how it played out, it just seems to be less relevant to the specific question you asked of it. To me it demonstrates the points that Dennis Elwell makes in his article A Modern Art of Horary...


I've just re-read his article and it's made me realise just how entrenched I seem to be in my desire to get a specific answer to a specific question. Elwell is right; it *is* arrogance to expect the cosmos to conform to our every little whim and demand. His two example charts were very instructive in this respect.

Quote:
Anyway, sorry it didn’t work out but it sounds like you were well rid of her in the end. So, do you think that Mars being in her 2nd house meant she was primarily motivated by money, and was she as fiery and dramatic as Mars in Sag trine Jupiter in Aries suggests?


Yes, I think financial security was and is her primary consideration, and as for fiery and dramatic, well ~ apart from Leo rising she has no fire in her chart but she does have the several planets in Pisces, including the chart ruler, and a t-square between Sun-Mars-Uranus. Dramatic? No question. You're not the first to tell me I'm well rid of her Deb, and now, finally, I really believe I am.
I'm getting too old in the teeth for that level of drama!
Thanks again for your comments...
--
Cheers...
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Deb
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Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Following Olivia Barclay I was taught to ask the querent to write the question down on a piece of paper and to answer that question exactly as it appeared – nothing more and nothing less (the reason I was given for this was that the client had only given his/her approval for my scrutiny of this question and to look beyond that was an infringement of my privileged position). I rejected that as a working philosophy a long time ago when it became obvious that I could get a long trail of horaries on little questions from a client, all of which repeated the same essential message which answered all their problems. I can honestly say that I have never known a horary to be false, although I haven’t understood all of them as clearly as I wish I had at the time. It seems bizarre to suggest ‘this chart is right but your question is wrong’, but nowadays I only take the verbal question as a handle by which I can get to grips with the issue I’m looking at.

Learning to let the chart describe the real problem to you also means you are less affected by the client’s prejudice and expectations. And in answer to Elwell’s challenge that if the chart is valid it shouldn’t just be able to give the answer but the question too – there have been many times when I’ve told the querent that I know what they want to ask me about, and I’ve explained their issues to them, especially when they have had a fear of expressing it. These are usually consultation charts, which I approach and read according to horary methods.

Clients often have a narrow focus upon what they think their problems are, so to only answer the question they bring to you is like an accountant explaining that you’ll be able to meet this upcoming debt, yet failing to mention that unless you make big changes you’ll be bankrupt and ruined by the end of the year. My philosophy is that if someone brings a concern to me they want my full and frank exploration of any astrological signal concerning the issues they are facing - inside and outside the question. The chart gives us access to a higher level of spiritual reality and a client will only benefit if they make the attempt to align themselves with it. I work the consultation on my terms, not the clients, so it’s all or nothing based on trust and confidence and this ‘permission’ business is irrelevant.
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