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Thanks for the example Steve!
The visual illustrations help a lot with the learning process, I think the only short fall Jim's book had is the illustrations were not clear enough, and there were not enough. Jim should have worked on a companion book that had more illustrations and charts. I know that Solar Fire did not exist and computers were scarce back then, but it would been have been a lot easier. It took me a while to get a grasp on the concept of Western Sidereal just based on the text!
One thing that I would like to ask your opinion about too was the orbs on progressed angles and auxillary angles, I stick to probably 1-2 degrees for the primary and probably 1/2 a degree for the auxillary, is that too strict?

Reply to BiBi

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BiBi wrote:
It took me a while to get a grasp on the concept of Western Sidereal just based on the text!
I totally understand what you mean BiBi?It was very difficult for me to grasp the concepts with just the text. But when the Personal Computer was invented along with astrological software, it allowed me to view/study a-lot of charts in a short period of time and this visual allowed me to prove to myself the many truths pertaining to the techniques of Sidereal Astrology with Jim?s book. It allowed me to realize an accurate timed solar return contains a rich source of sacred geometry (astronomy) with lucid planetary symbolism.

BiBi wrote:
The visual illustrations help a lot with the learning process, I think the only short fall Jim's book had is the illustrations were not clear enough, and there were not enough.
BiBi, this is a very keen observation by you-- with much truth. In the era of the Fathers of Western Sidereal Astrology, along with Jim?s book, most beginning astrologers were without the aid of the personal computer?they could not begin to see and understand the technical mathematical/astronomical truths associated with Sidereal Astrology. They were without the aid of viewing many charts in a short period of time. It truly takes visual illustrations of Sidereal Astrology to allow true understanding. But the true understanding and learning occurs when one works with their own solar returns, and see the manifestations in their personal life associated with solar return planetary symbolism. ?Astrology must be lived to be learned.?

I agree with your orbs allowance with auxillary angles.

Steve
With all our modern knowledge and scientific equipment, and with the the great strides made in mathematics, we astrologers have done nothing to even remotely compare with the achievements of the astrologers of antiquity. Cyril Fagan

Michael Douglas Natal Chart & 2009 Solar Return

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On Aug. 16th 2010, Michael Douglas Movie Actor and Producer of Movies was diagnosed with stage 4 throat cancer. He has an AA rated birth time (birth certificate in hand). Birth data: 9/25/1944, 10:30 AM EWT, New Brunswick, New Jersey, 40N29:10, 074W27:02-Ascendant 15SC14.

Note the tight conjunction of Sun-Neptune in his Natal Chart tightly squaring his Natal Moon. Then note transiting Saturn around Aug. 16th 2010 was maturing partile conjunctions to his Natal Sun-Neptune and partile squaring his Natal Moon. Both his Natal Lights are under partile siege with transiting Saturn. Reinhold Ebertin writes in his book ?The Combination of Stellar Influences? pertaining to Sun/Neptune = Saturn:
?Inhibitions through illness or physical debility??
In late Feb. & Mar. 2010, Michael Douglas learned his Son was going to be sentenced to Federal Prison for illegal drug trafficking. Note transiting Saturn during this time frame was also ?dynamically? partile aspecting his Natal Sun-Neptune-Moon. April 20th 2010 his Son was sentenced to 5 years imprisonment.

Michael Douglas was diagnosed with cancer by doctors in New York City which is a location of one of his Home Residences. When we compute his current 2009 Precessed Solar Return for New York City (40N42:51, 074W00:23), we compute an Ascendant of 8LEO47; but, astonishingly we compute a Solar Moon of 3CAP57?virtually the same zodiac position as his Natal Moon at 3CAP36. This is certainly no chance zodiacally TIMING coincidence for an accurate TIMED Solar Return, particularly in light of Jim?s teachings from ?Interpreting Solar Returns? where he states on page 68:
In general, Sun-Moon aspects in a Solar Return represents crisis, i.e., significant turning points??
As we can see, Michael Douglas Natal Moon and current 2009 Solar Moon (two of the 4 Moons associated with life events) was receiving partile squared ?dynamic? aspects from 2010 transiting Saturn- at the exact times of his 2010 crisis. If we don?t allow for a correction for Precession, his 2009 Solar Moon will not compute to the same position as his Natal Moon.

It is also very important to note with Michael Douglas 2009 Precessed Solar Return- located to New York City, his Solar Moon receives a partile 45 from Solar Jupiter. This is a ?silver lining? with his 2009 Solar Return and he was told by his doctors the cancer from the tumor has not spread to other parts of his body and there is a 80% + probability radiation treatment will contain the cancer. Solar Jupiter in partile ?dynamic? 45 aspect to Solar Moon offers much good ?hope? with his cancer crisis. Again, if the astrologer does not allow for Precession, this partile 45 degree ?dynamic? aspect of Solar Moon with Solar Jupiter would not exist with Michael Douglas 2009 Solar Return. There is so much astrological knowledge contained in Jim Eshelman?s book, ?Interpreting Solar Returns,? the mind has difficulty analyzing this astrological knowledge as a whole. Jim?s book exemplifies a quote from Francis Bacon:
?Some books are to be tasted, others are to be swallowed, and some few to be chewed and digested.?
Steve
With all our modern knowledge and scientific equipment, and with the the great strides made in mathematics, we astrologers have done nothing to even remotely compare with the achievements of the astrologers of antiquity. Cyril Fagan

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Sat/Mo symbolism has to be the worst, and is one of those planetary pairs that manifest itself in anything in life. Ebertin was great, but once you've actually lived through a lot of this stuff you know how some of these planetary pairs are like invasive weeds really touching every part of your life, and then there are some planetary pairs that seem to be isolated to some areas of life. Like Ve/Ne this planetary pairing has shown up only romance for myself, where others like Ve/Sa, Ve/Ma, Ve/Ju have been more general including friends, romance, and family.

An Example of Relocation

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Birth Data
Female, 1/30/1957 Alice Texas 4:42 pm
Asc
22 31 cancer Venus being the most angular just minutes away from the DSC
Solar Return Period for 1979-1980
My mother was engaged to a Vietnam War Vet from Columbus Ohio who suffered from a really bad case of PTSD, he came from an amazing family but was really heavy into drugs to deal with his anxiety, and PTSD. During the Summer of 1979 they were suppose to be married but he committed suicide by overdosing on heroin.
Even though my mother lived in the deep South, she flew to Ohio and stayed there for several months when he died.
This chart is a really good example of why it is imparative to relocate a chart from birth place to current location, and probably why Western Sidereal Astrologers use the angles much more strongly as opposed to placing emphasis and assigning so much meaning to every single house.
Image
Image
Notice how the Neptune/Venus Cnj is not near the angles when located to Agua Dulce Texas, but when relocated to Columbus Ohio, this becomes a triple planetary pair, the Venus/Neptune comes close to the MC, with Neptune being partile the MC
Saturn is partile the DSC
Side note, the moon is obviously square Venus in both charts, but becomes even stronger when aspecting a newly relocated angular planet(venus) the aspect becomes more able to express itself.
Last edited by BiBi_Anderson on Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Reply to BiBi

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An excellent example BiBi that reflects the importance of always relocating return charts to where one will be spending (TIME) important activity or to where one will be residing verses the birth location. To quote excellent defining words from Jim Eshelman book, ?Interpreting Solar Returns,? on page 29 under the title ?Locality? he states:
?Solar Returns consistently appear to score their best on accuracy tests when computed for the longitude and latitude that the individual occupies from minute to minute. If a man were born in New Orleans, permanently moved to Portland, Oregon, and was there for his birthday when the Solar Return set up, but fell deeply in love while in New York on vacation, it would be the Solar Return calculated for Manhattan which would sport a prominent Venus, rather than either of the other two locations.?
When your Mother relocated herself from Texas to Columbus, Ohio for ?important activity,? we can clearly see with our eyes how the symbolism of Venus-Neptune-Saturn moved tightly to the angles. Cyril Fagan taught ?the seat of one?s consciousness? (awareness), the ?I,? the ?Me,? and the ?Mine,? which is always acutely aware of physical and/or conscious pleasure and pain is centered at the intersection of the planes of the meridian and horizon planes which is actually the center of the Earth where we are geocentric residing. Psychologist?s who study astrology call this ?center? the ?psychological center of gravity.? This is the sole reason why astrologers who studies the main principles of Jim?s book are able to consistently witness ?outstanding incidents? when planets occupy the angles of return charts and receive tight or partile aspects from other planets. This is why transits to the angles or directions of the angles to the malefics or benefics are accompanied by the awareness of either suffering or pleasure, depending on the nature of the planets. The more remote from the angles, the less conscious awareness of the nature of the planets. When analyzing return charts, always start with the angles, these ?represent the most powerful, active, dynamic areas of the return map.? This is consistent with the heritage of astrological knowledge left to us by the ancients.

Steve
With all our modern knowledge and scientific equipment, and with the the great strides made in mathematics, we astrologers have done nothing to even remotely compare with the achievements of the astrologers of antiquity. Cyril Fagan

A possibility for an 'outstanding incident' for Obama

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Image
Gallup: GOP Has Largest Poll Lead Ever
Monday, 30 Aug 2010 10:17 PM :

?A new Gallup poll released Monday shows Republicans with a record 10-point edge over Democrats on the "generic ballot" test ? the question of whether voters prefer a Democratic or Republican congressional candidate. It?s the largest GOP polling edge at this stage in the 68 years of the generic ballot poll, Politico first reported.The news is so discouraging that an increasing number of Democratic strategists now say privately that they fear the House is already lost, Politico reports.
The Gallup poll, coming at the end of a brutal August for Democrats and President Barack Obama, reinforces the rapidly forming prevailing view that the horizon is as bleak for Democrats as it ever has been.
The 51-41 percent edge Republicans have now represents the largest Republican edge heading into a midterm election since the poll was first conducted in the 1942 election cycle, giving them greater reason for optimism than in the weeks leading up to their 1952 and 1994 House takeovers. It also represents a stunning reversal from the 6-point lead Democrats posted in the poll in mid-July. ?
If these poll numbers don?t change, there is going to be an ?outstanding incident? occur in Obama?s life pertaining to the Nov. 2nd Midterm Elections, where he will loose much of his political power by loosing majority control of Congress in the Mid-Term elections.
The above chart is Obama?s Precessed Lunar Return, relocated to DC, which precedes the Mid-Term election on Nov. 2nd 2010. This lunar return chart is clearly foretelling an ?outstanding incident? with severe loses in the Mid-Term election according to Jim Eshelman?s teachings from ?Interpreting Solar Return.? As we can see there is a tight angular placement of Neptune on the Ascendant of Obama?s Lunar Return. Neptune receives one partile ?dynamic? 135 aspect from Saturn and a tight 90 from Mars. Obama?s angular Lunar Neptune is afflicted with both malefics?Saturn & Mars. Jim teaches us when there are angular placements with partile aspects we can expect to see an ?outstanding incident? pertaining to the partile planetary symbolism. Donald Bradley, a brilliant astrological researcher in the 50?s & 60?s, wrote on page 55 of his book ?Solar and Lunar Returns pertaining to angular Saturn-Neptune Symbolism:
?A real throne-toppler, this. Among its paramount key words is ?removal,? for Saturn-Neptune surely takes first prize for forcing resignations, abdications, exiles, deportations, and firings from jobs.?
Obama will not lose his job as President, but as we can see from the tones of the above delineated quote, it is foretold he will suffer political defeats.

If you calculate this same chart relocated to DC, without correcting for precession, Neptune is far removed from the angle; thus losing the defined principle from Jim?s book which teaches when angular planets are present in return charts and receives partile aspects an ?outstanding incident? is foretold.

On page 8 of this thread, I explained how I implement the use of Lunar Returns. The Post subject on page 8 is titled ?Subservient? Lunar Returns to Solar Returns. It would help to reread this post on page 8 for a better understanding how lunar returns in their time frames can, at times, pinpoint ?outstanding incidents? in the life of a native.

Steve
With all our modern knowledge and scientific equipment, and with the the great strides made in mathematics, we astrologers have done nothing to even remotely compare with the achievements of the astrologers of antiquity. Cyril Fagan

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Hello Steve,

Though I haven't commented much in recent weeks, I just wanted to say that every word is being read. (and most of it re-read)

Thank you so much for taking the time and for being so clear in your presentation.

You've put a very important methodology on the table. I hope others are also soaking this all up...

Peace

Atlantean

Reply to Atlantean

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Thanks Atlantean for your supported words. As Philip Graves has so aptly recognized and confirmed by Robert Hand, much of the fine astrological research that occurred in the 20th Century is in jeopardy of being lost to present and future astrologers. So much of this 20th Century astrological material is out of print and at times very difficult to locate. I endeavor to pass-on to other astrologers some of this 20th Century astrological knowledge-- so they may one day pass-on to future astrologers this same astrological knowledge. I also deeply feel there is much more astrological/astronomical knowledge, yet to be discovered, particularly from precessional astronomy monumentized by the ancient Egyptians.

Regards Steve
With all our modern knowledge and scientific equipment, and with the the great strides made in mathematics, we astrologers have done nothing to even remotely compare with the achievements of the astrologers of antiquity. Cyril Fagan

Reply to horarcek

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Hi Trojan,
?Solar Returns are transit-based techniques. They arise from a precise aspect (conjunction) of the transiting Sun with the natal Sun. They consist of transiting planets at a given moment in time, near or on one?s birthday, locked into collusion with natal planets for a year to follow.? Page 6, ?Interpreting Solar Returns.?
Jim?s book teaches the importance of reading a Solar Return ?twice, involving two very distinct examinations.? First reading involves reading a Solar Return ?without recourse to natal planets.? Jim gives his rules in his book for the first reading. After the first reading, Jim then constructs a bi-wheel by placing the natal chart wheel on the outside (with SolarFire) of the Solar Return Wheel. Jim then reads this bi-wheel as the second reading for the Solar Return, carefully noting any natal planets that are angular and/or solar planets (which are transits to natal planets), that tightly or partiles conjunct or opposes natal planets. Jim discusses this second reading of a solar return, bi-wheeled to the natal chart, in chapter 6 of his book titled ?Second Time Through-Wheels Within Wheels.? It is very important for the learning student to always bi-wheel the solar return to the natal chart for a ?second? reading, after the ?first? reading the solar return by itself. With the ?second? reading, sometimes we find very striking solar planets aspected to natal planets. Sometimes these aspected solar planets to natal planets will be angular (very important) on the solar return chart?sometimes they will not be angular but still very important particularly if the aspect of the solar planet to the natal planet is partile. Never forget, ?Partile aspects reign supreme.? Whenever we find solar transiting planets aspecting natal planets, these transits are ?locked-in? or ?freeze-framed? with their planetary symbolism for the entire solar year. Or in Jim?s words, ?the solar return planets are locked into collusion with natal planets for a year to follow.? It is critical for the student to understand this teaching ?Wheels Within Wheels? principle from Jim?s book because it damn sure will screen and isolate the important transits in an individual?s life with important manifested life incidents according to the planetary symbolism. Any serious astrologer knows most transits will manifest no noticeable effects involving significant life incidents. On page 10 of this thread, BiBi offered an outstanding example from her life with this ?Wheels Within Wheels? principle with her 2005 Solar Return. Using a stand alone ?first? reading of BiBi?s 2005 Solar Return, we see a tight angular solar Moon with a partile 135 to solar Mars. Jim?s book clearly teaches us this solar return will produce an ?outstanding? Martian ?incident? simply because we have an angular solar Moon receiving a partile ?dynamic? aspect from solar malefic Mars. But, this ?first? reading of BiBi?s 2005 solar Return does not absolutely tell the astrologer in what specific sphere of her life she will be afflicted by the Martian symbolism. However, when the student applies Jim?s second reading of BiBi?s 2005 solar return using his ?Wheels Within Wheels? bi-wheel principle with the solar return and natal chart, the astrologer immediately sees that her solar Moon is partile conjunct her Natal Venus. In other words, at the very moment (the computer calculates the solar return to 1 second of arc clock time from her birth time) of her 2005 solar return, transiting Moon (Solar Moon) is partile conjunct her natal Venus. This conveys to the mind of the astrologer, the ?outstanding? Martian ?incident? foretold by the ?first? reading of the stand alone solar return will have very high probability pertaining to Love/Romance?because of the transit of Solar Moon to her Natal Venus. Everyone receives a partile transit of Moon to their Natal Venus every month of their life without an ?outstanding? love ?incident? occurring in their life. But Jim?s book clearly teaches us that BiBi?s 2005 Solar Return has ?locked into collusion? with Natal Venus ?BIG TIME! Before the weekend is over, I will give you another chart example from my personal files that will illustrate when a Solar Return is ?colluding? with natal planets for ?outstanding incidents.?

Regards, Steve
With all our modern knowledge and scientific equipment, and with the the great strides made in mathematics, we astrologers have done nothing to even remotely compare with the achievements of the astrologers of antiquity. Cyril Fagan