skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Can assassinations be prevented? by Elsbeth Ebertin
translated by Jenn Zahrt PhD
A Guide to Interpreting The Great American Eclipse
by Wade Caves
The Astrology of Depression
by Judith Hill
Understanding the mean conjunctions of the Jupiter-Saturn cycle
by Benjamin Dykes
Understanding the zodiac: and why there really ARE 12 signs of the zodiac, not 13
by Deborah Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

Astrology and Islam
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Traditional (& Ancient) Techniques
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 588

Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 7:13 pm    Post subject: Astrology and Islam Reply with quote

While reading the articles at this site, I find frequent references to texts written about astrology by Muslims. I believe even Lilly drew upon ancient texts written by the Arabs.

Now, Islam, as I understand it today, frowns on any form of divinatory practise.

So my question is:
1) Does Islam really frown on this practise? Or has this "frowning upon" evolved over time via interaction with other segments of society that disapprove, and consequently made to seem like a part of the religion?

2) If Islam does frown on this, then howcome these people (i.e. the ancient Muslims who wrote these texts) got away with their writing, and who preserved these texts?

I was just curious.....
Thanks.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tom
Moderator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3509
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hate it when good questions pop up while I'm away from my references. Be careful with equating the Arabic writers and Islam. The "Arabs" wrote in Arabic. They all weren't necessarily Muslim. One of them was a Christian, but I can't recall which ones were which. Perhaps someone else can.

Al Khayyat was Muslim I think. I'll check this out in a few days, and try to answer your main question as well, unless someone does it first.

Tom
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 588

Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'll check this out in a few days, and try to answer your main question as well, unless someone does it first.


Tom (a.k.a. Mr. Cool Cool )
When I posted this question, I had you in the back of my mind and I just knew the first answer to my post would be yours....
You see, if Islam does frown on this stuff, then they would have had to hide their texts from the higher authorities, so then the question arises how did they get away with it...
On the other hand, maybe they were just Arabs as you say, and not Muslims at all.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tom
Moderator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3509
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2004 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Taurus,

I didn't forget you. I just got tied up a bit. I'm checking my references and will answer soon, even if only to say I didn't find what I was looking for.

Tom
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Tom
Moderator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3509
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2004 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Taurus,

I can't answer your question regardin contemporary Islamic beleifs and astrology. I just don't know. I can offer some historical information about tolerance of astrology and Islam.

The short answer to your question is: “There is no short answer.” Your question can be answered in some detail by downloading the article Arabic Astrology by Robert Zoller at his new website:


http://www.robertezoller.com.

In order to get this straight in my mind I had to put the information in some kind of historical context using a timeline. Using that timeline we do see overlapping occurring in different places in the world. I’ll try to abbreviate the information and strongly recommend spending the five bucks for the article, which can be downloaded from his site.

Rome fell; Christianity rose. It is chic to place the blame of all the world’s ills at the feet of Christianity and what they did to the sciences during the so-called “Dark Ages,” but a little perspective is in order. The Romans were very orderly. Their society was orderly, when Rome fell the order fell with it leaving the people susceptible to attack, rape and plunder from the barbarians. Christianity provided the order and subsequently a society run, understandably enough, by Christians. As Christian authority grew astrology, particularly Hermetic astrology became less and less acceptable and those practicing those things that were “unapproved” left for Syria and other Eastern areas that still accepted the old traditions.

Note: The prophet lived during the 7th century. Islam did not immediately become a major power in the Middle East upon his arrival. As it did rise in military power they did what the Christians eventually did and what every other civilization did: they conquered. Zoller argues that Arab conquest was usually quick and as a result they left a lot of the societies in tact. Long drawn out wars take their toll on society. Islam certainly has its share of prejudices but they are not the same as the Christian prejudices, so they weren’t as quick to look upon the sciences, and astrology was one, as threatening. Furthermore, the astrology was not presented as religious in any way but scientific. If it was presented as religious or even philosophical, once they were in power the Moslems could be as ruthless and cruel as any Christian leadership.

There are probably other reasons for what appears to us as a thriving Arab astrological tradition. The “texts” are not really texts, but probably study guides and distribution was certainly limited. As I stated previously not all “Arab” astrologers were Moslem. For example, Messahala was Jewish. Ibn Hibinta was Christian. Abu Mashar was Persian. Al biruni was Moslem. The earlier the writer, the less likely Islamic influence would prevent them from writing.

The main point seems to be this: They used Hermes for a source. They did not present their astrology as having religious significance, but rather as scientific. Islamic prejudices existed but they were different than Christian prejudices so science that was not presented as religion didn’t seem threatening.

Christianity, beginning with Augustine, saw astrology (and I’m not arguing the point either way) as fatalistic and therefore denying free will. To deny free will is to deny the possibility of salvation. Therefore astrology threatened Christian theology, and it was not tolerated. However stories of fanatical Christians seeking and burning astrologers are wildly exaggerated. That is another issue all together.

I hope this helps. Please download the article for more details and enjoy.

Tom
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Kim Farnell



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
Posts: 256

Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2004 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everything Tom said and...

A not insubstantial amount of Muslims practice Vedic astrology. See http://www.geocities.com/planetaryastro/islam.htm

So the question is not far from whether or not Christians should/do practice astrology. There are Muslims and there are Muslims, and their beliefs can differ widely.
http://www.aryabhatt.com/articles/astrology-islamic%20views.htm

Much depends on what you mean by astrology. In the same way as many early Christians accepted astrology so long as predictions weren't incorporated in analysis, and saw natural astrology as different to judicial astrology, Muslims often simply oppose particular uses or forms of astrology http://www.islaam.com/bp/ruling_on_horoscopes.htm
http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/hadeeth/riyad/17/chap303.htm

Depending on how you look, you can find numerous exhortations to Muslims to avoid astrology, (therefore enough must be interested to make this necessary), you can find justifications for Muslims to practice astrology or you can look in the Koran and wonder how on earth they could avoid the subject :-)

"And he hath constrained the night and the day and the sun and Moon to be services unto you, and the stars are made subservient by His command. Lo! herein indeed are portents for people who sense." (Surah Al-Nahi : verse 12).

Kim
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 588

Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
And he hath constrained the night and the day and the sun and Moon to be services unto you, and the stars are made subservient by His command. Lo! herein indeed are portents for people who sense." (Surah Al-Nahi : verse 12).


Thanks to both of you for the links provided, that was fascinating!!

Kim, would you by any chance know what "Siparah" this surah is from? i.e. the Quran is divided into 30 "books" or "siparahs". The quote is from "Surah Al-Nahi", which would be a collection of verses, of which you quote the verse above. I would be very much interested in reading this entire Surah, see what else it may have to say, but first, I would need to locate what siparah it is in.

Also, how did you find this particular verse?

Tieing together what these articles say and what Tom said, it appears that the sun and the moon, the planets and the stars comprise a cohesive system that works in incredible harmony, as does life itself, and could could only have been created by a Higher Intelligence. As I said in one of my other posts, it appears to be too planned to be co-incidental, and there appear to be enough references in the Quran that encourage the quest of knowledge in general - since it accepts that there is a system in the passage of the planets, then what reason could there be that it should discourage quest of knowledge related to this discipline.
At the same time, the Quran emphasizes that all things are possible only through Allah, and not through human beings. We are but humans, we can learn to cope with what we are given, but can not make nature change it's course. And after all, it seems to me that the fundamental premise of horary is to guide, not predict, as are the remaining branches of astrology.
So it ties in............
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kim Farnell



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
Posts: 256

Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Kim, would you by any chance know what "Siparah" this surah is from?


It's from Ch. 16, An-Nahl, The Bee.

Quote:
Also, how did you find this particular verse?


I have a collection of what could be seen as astrological quotes from the Koran on file. I knew they'd come in useful one day :-)

Actually, it stemmed from a discussion about Biblical references to astrology, and my saying that from memory it was far easier to find such references in the Koran. Course I then had to prove it. So I simply found one of the many translations online with a search facility and put in terms that could turn up such references. I'm sure there are many more to be found than I have.

And I agree with the rest of what you say. It was actually quite a delight to find the references I have :-)

Kim
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 588

Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It's from Ch. 16, An-Nahl, The Bee.


That's great. Although I can read Arabic, I don't understand it (yes - that's wierd, but true...). The strange thing about Muslims (atleast where I come from) is that we are taught to read the Quran in Arabic, because the sounds and the rhythm of the language of the Holy Book is such that it is said to give spiritual healing and peace to the soul. (And I have to tell you, it does - when my mother died, one of my main sources of solace was reading this book in Arabic...). Of course, we learn the meaning of some of the more important verses, but not all. But I have an English translation that was given by my mother to my American husband when we married, and I'll check it out tonight.

Quote:
Also, how did you find this particular verse?

I have a collection of what could be seen as astrological quotes from the Koran on file. I knew they'd come in useful one day :-)

Wow! That's incredible! Would it be possible for you to quantify the number of references??? (just a guess........). I'm just curious, no big deal...

Thanks again for your research on this.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Coder



Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 143

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Also, how did you find this particular verse?

Obviously I'm not answering for kim, but there is a concordance on the Koran, created by great labor before the advent of computers. I've seen numerology done on the Koran using this concordance.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 588

Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Coder wrote:
Quote:
Also, how did you find this particular verse?

Obviously I'm not answering for kim, but there is a concordance on the Koran, created by great labor before the advent of computers. I've seen numerology done on the Koran using this concordance.


My son made reference to the fact that the number 19 has special significance in Islam. For example, the number of times that "Allah" is referenced in the Quran I think, is 19 times 144. I quote from something I read on the Internet:

"
Quote:
We all, hopefully, know by now that the Arabic word “Wahid”, which means (one) has a gematrical value of 19, where 19 is the mathematical code of the miracle of the Quran. The message of the Quran and all the scripture focus on “God is ONE.”


and another quote:
"
Quote:
No extraordinary importance has been given to number 19 in Qur’an, as far as the Message of Qur’an and the guidance therein is concerned. What you read in the said review of ‘The Ultimate Revelation’ was actually about a miraculous ‘19-based’ mathematical arrangement through which the letters, words, verses and the Surahs of holy Qur’an are related together....

....The exact significance of the same is known by Allah only. However following is what I could think of...It had to be a prime number (one that is not divisible by any number other than 1 and itself). The miracle comprises of large numbers arrived at by different relations between letters, words and Surah of Qur’an. All these numbers are multiple of number 19, Nineteen is a prime number ..which means it is divisible by only two numbers viz., 1 and 19... Had it not been a prime number, say, were it 18, divisible by 2,3,6 and 9 besides 1 and 18, then the miracle would not have been based on 18 only but upon its smaller factors also. Any figure, which is divisible by 18, is also a multiple of 2,3,6 and 9. So it had to be a prime number. There are other prime numbers, you may question, like 7,11, 13, 17,23,29 and so on. What is the speciality of 19 as a prime number? I think the number had to belong to the family of basic number ‘1’ to retain its unique individuality. 19 reduces to the basic number ‘1’ as it comprises of digits 1 and 9, 1+9=10 and again in 10, 1+0=1, 19 is the smallest prime number belonging to the family of basic number ‘1’. Those who are familiar with a little of numerology can fully appreciate the importance of belonging to the family of 1, of a number which is used in the mathematical miracle of Qur’an.


Is this what you are referring to?
This whole nineteen thing has always fascinated me.....

- Taurus7 -
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ben



Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 167
Location: Minneapolis, MN USA

Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Taurus,

This may or may not be relevant (though it probably is), but 19 is the traditional number of the Sun's minor years, derived from the Saros eclipse cycle.

Ben
_________________
www.bendykes.com
Traditional Astrology Texts and Teaching
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Coder



Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 143

Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Numerology is one attempt (but not the only one) to derive necessary truths from contingent premises. I think it futile. I follow the logic behind claiming 19 is special since it comprises the combination of 1 and 9 (first and last single integers, Alpha and Omega, etc), but actually "19" is only the representation of the number 19 in base 10, which only happens to be the most commonly used representational scheme. In hexadecimal for instance "19" is the number 25. Again, the significance of something having a latitude or longitude of 19 degrees is contingent on our dviding a circle into 360 parts, whereas a measurement which would be readily understood by Martians, et alii. would use arc radians, and produce a different number.

I find the main thread topic, astrology in (current) Islam more interesting, not just what the Qur'an states, but the actual practice of Muslims in this regard, which, needless to say like Catholics and contraception, may diverge widely from it. There could be an MA thesis here, if anyone needs a topic for one Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Pete



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 301
Location: Kinnelon, New Jersey, USA

Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi T,
it may or may not be relevant to this discussion, but I think it is interesting that in the Major Arcana of the tarot, the 19th card is the Sun.
The meaning for the Sun as the source of earthly life reflects the promise of the Bright Shadow. The Sun card captures the essence of the life force and the capacity for growth within each of us. It heralds a new day dawning, a day filled with liberation, attainment, truth, happiness and contentment.
The Sun brings rebirth, warmth, happiness, light, love, contentment, freedom.
===
Pete
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
techno_seer



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
Posts: 26
Location: Malone, NY

Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 1:07 pm    Post subject: 18/19 and its astrological significance. Reply with quote

18 years is the number of the saros cycle for lunar eclipese followed by two 19 year cycles of the metonic. 18 is the number of the Moon card in the tarot followed by the Sun card at 19 with the two solar/lunar twins. I do not think that this was an accident. The numbers of 2 x 19 + 18 = 56, the number of the cards in the minor arcana. 56 is divisible by 28 twice, which is of course the average days of a lunar month.

I got these from Barbara Walker's, The Secrets of the Tarot and followed her book references.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Traditional (& Ancient) Techniques All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated